Thats... Not how this works at all.
That is exactly how it works. The argument is whether or not Nintendo should put achievements in BotW and subsequently their systems. Whether or not it's optional- at best- doesn't matter, and at worst, is not an active benefit of achievements and thus it's a non-argument.
So you're saying scores, leaderboards, EXP leveling up, the noise the coins make in Mario... all of those should be removed from gaming because they create a feedback loop which is the main goal of any gameplay system in any video game ever. Gotcha.
You don't get me at all.
My point is that achievements are very simple Pavlovian conditioning. This isn't inherently a bad thing, or even all that relevant to the larger points being made in this thread because video games rely on this kind of enforcement anyway. The question- then- is not whether or not games condition us, because they do, but what are the benefits and drawbacks to specific kinds of conditioning as inherent ideas or when placed within the context of specific games and genres. Is every type of conditioning okay in every single scenario? My answer is no.
Pretty sure most folks that are for it are saying it would be a great option. I don't think anyone is saying PLEASE ADD 40000 POINTLESS FETCH QUESTS TO ZELDA PLEASE.
I know they're saying it's a great option because obviously they're for achievements. My question is- knowing what we know about the game's artistic intent- why do they believe achievements are a great option for Breath of the Wild. I haven't gotten an answer that hasn't been argued against if not refuted, and that's not because I believe achievements are bad in every single instance of implementation, but because my understanding of Breath of the Wild's methods of influencing player behavior and discovery and artistic goals cannot reconcile how achievements don't effectively undermine those methods and goals (
which again is not the same as saying that they're bad in every single instance of implementation).
That, and I haven't seen any specific ideas on individual achievements that would be good, especially since a lot of the optional content you get results in rewards anyway that are equivalent. You get collectibles, weapons, items, money, and abilities for the optional content anyway. Collect all 900 Korok seeds? You hilariously get the golden scat. Do all of the Shrines? Your health and stamina become massive. Free all of the Divine Beasts? You get the Champions' abilities,
plus a handicap added onto Ganon,
plus a visual marker on your loading screen. A lot of these things are, for all intents and purposes, achievements- incentives to do these optional things- so honestly what would the
addition of system-side validation actually add here in BotW's ecosystem?
I am definitely arguing that trophies can be a wonderful addition to lots of games because they can signpost content that could be easily missed or overlooked. Consider the fact I would have never in a million years have heard the Rusty Anchor song from Grim Fandango without the trophy for it.
The trophy leading you finding out and hearing the Rusty Anchor song is not inherently a benefit compared to other methods of sign-posting that exist within a developer's toolbox. People have been finding oddities and optional content for years before achievements were there to tell them where stuff is. What does an achievement have over the option of a really well done sidequest leading you to the same result?
And so you, being an artist and animator, how much would you care if you see someone beat a game you worked on? How much would you care if you saw someone got a trophy for doing a special move you spent weeks finetuning the animations for?
As an artist, I care less about the mechanical act of an audience checking things off than I do their emotional experience. My best moments during dailies and informal showings have been seeing people laugh or cry at the right moments, not them necessarily picking apart my art with a fine-toothed comb if they were able.
Subsequently, if I made a game with a secrets in it, it would not necessarily be the main source of satisfaction I would derive from the audience's experience. I would
much rather make a game that leaves a person stunned or in tears than a game where they show off some achievements to their friends in the aether of the Internet. The moments that really go down in gaming culture history are things like Aerith sacrificing herself, or finding out that Red was the one who was on top of Mt. Silver, or being blown away by the haunting chorus in Halo's main menu when you turned on your Xbox that Christmas morning.
If I ever wanted to be a game developer,
those are the things I would want to achieve and be remembered for. Not fucking collectibles.