Support NeoGAF

[bigdaddygamebot]

Ideas for good trophies in specific games would be a far more interesting discussion to have then whether or not bad trophies are ever acceptable, honestly.

I don't think I've played enough of Breath of the Wild to come up with a list...yet.


Sounds like you just nominated yourself to make a Breath of the Wild trophy thread where we track what everyone has done! We can vote on what trophies are worth chasing, etc.

That would actually...hmmm...that might be kinda fun.

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't think I've played enough of Breath of the Wild to come up with a list...yet.


Sounds like you just nominated yourself to make a Breath of the Wild trophy thread where we track what everyone has done! We can vote on what trophies are worth chasing, etc.

That would actually...hmmm...that might be kinda fun.

xP Hardly! I'm not playing the game much anymore. I may find Eventide Island, or I may get off my ass and make a new account so I can start over without losing progress. But if someone else wants to do a tracking thread, they can have it. After all, I'm still in the camp that this specific game doesn't actually need achievements.

 

[Fisty]

Because you seem to think the solution to every thing that could be flawed is to ignore it. What if I happened to be a person who liked achievements, but thought some of them were shit or the way they were commonly implemented kind of proved detrimental to certain games? Gonna tell me to turn them off? But I like achievements. So what does that person actually do? Hell, what about achievements in games that are programmed on the software side and cannot be turned off? Guess I should just not play the game? But what if I wanted to play the game? Can achievements just not be critiqued in any manner whatsoever?

Honestly, if you're so secure in how utterly perfect achievements are in every single instance of implementation, why do you feel the need to keep responding to me? Go earn some achievements or something instead of staying here remaining frustrated with me that I'm not kowtowing to your rebuttals.

You know, take your own advice and "ignore" me. Your participation in this thread is "entirely optional."

I think you're just arguing to be contrarian at this point. Yeah bad trophies happen, and they have gotten better since 2006. Are they perfect? No. Does every game need them to be worth my purchase? No. Would it be nice to have them in games that have tons of challenges and gameplay mechanisms that would complement Trophies? Yes. Does a person who doesn't like them need to deal with them? No. Am I going to continue debating with someone who clearly isn't interested in debating the reality of application and instead some scenario they have painted in their mind? No.

Also, we have had threads were people come up with interesting trophies for games, but they end up exactly like every other thread on GAF with the word "trophy" or "achievements" in the title, just like this one

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

This isn't entirely fair.

Players should expect their experiences to be crafted in such a way that a good flow of difficulty per the experience is maintained via the tools they are given within a specific game environment. The mere presentation of unbalanced options, useless options, broken options, and overall shitty options can serve to change the context of the game as a whole just as the presentation of quality options can elevate games to new heights, even if you can make the decision to not use them. When people make the argument that they shouldn't have to "gimp themselves" to make a boring game fun or challenging, it is ultimately the same principle. This is just basic game design and has little to do with people's self-control.

Hold on...THIS isn't entirely fair and this is from the ONLY the first page of this thread.

what's wrong with you.

I'm serious.

No, keep that shit away from my Zelda.

I think that actually could have ruined the game for me

No, no, no, dear god no.

Make your own trophies out of card and glitter, and then give yourself one when you have done something you consider to be a milestone. If it was easy, be fair and give yourself a bronze one. If it was 900 Korok Seeds, give yourself the gold one.

When you can turn trophies off...or you need to dig for them like you can find in Xenoblade Chronicles. They don't hurt the game. They simply don't. It seriously comes down to people that can't handle knowing that they even exist for the game.

I don't need a pat on the back every time I do something in a game. Playing the game is indeed it's own reward. What I like about trophies and achievements is that I can track them. I can look at what I've done and I can look at what my friends have done and thanks to certain websites I can look at what whole communities have done and I find that stuff interesting.

There are so...SO many options in Breath of the Wild. It would be interesting to see how many people have defeated Ganon without defeating the guardians, etc...

It would be interesting to see how many people have flown continuously for 15 minutes or a kilometer (I'm not saying you can do this. I'm just giving terrible examples)

 

[atr0cious]

There is nothing inherent about Trophies that keeps you in any paid ecosystem, that's a ludicrous argument. There was a mass exodus of Microsoft customers to Sony's ecosystem which meant abandoning any achievements they had behind them. Any argument that achievements are intended to retain customers has already been disproven by how many MS customers migrated to Sony.. Good policy retains customers, not an achievement system.




don't tell people what they 'should be doing". If they get satisfaction from these things that have merit as challenges, then they are free to do so. They don't need your approval. You are literally whining about other people enjoying something you don't personally like. Feel free to shoot out more poor arguments honey. I'll shut them all down.

Making up stuff to argue against, and you can't even get the details correct. People jumped shipped because xbox tried to fuck the world and dropped backwards compatibility for launch. Same for the ps4 with backwards compatibility. And the ps4 still has achievements, so it's not like they were leaving them behind. Cheevs are a bullet point MSFT made up to give their paid ecosystem value, especially since paid online is still the greatest scam in the video game industry.

Whether an achivement system exists in-game our outside the game is irrelevent. You are fine with them existing within the game, which negates your entire argument. You're either against them or you're not, but you are obviously undecided about this.

Literally the point of the thread, but ok. And this is bad faith arguing. They aren't on the Wii U system, so yea, I'm living fine without them, and my ps3 and steam account have them turned off. I can ask the same as to why you need them when Zelda literally provides in game lists and better rewards and splash screens than a little grey or green blurb that you'll forgot about in a few minutes.

Whether you press F12 or the game takes a screenshot for you, the net effect is the same. More contradictions in your argument.

I don't think you know what "same" means.

Air Force One
15
Defend the Meeting Room in "Plane" on Casual/Ranked Multiplayer or Terrorist Hunt. Multiplayer Offline or Online Solo or Co-op

There is way less info given in this than in

especially if you decide to use the steam/imagehost caption function. Video goes even further. I'm in this thread objecting to tossing in something needless into a game that would make it beyond redundant. Please quote in my posts where I'm whining. I'm responding to points made in the thread. You're the one whining because your feeling are hurt.

 

[Nepenthe]

I think you're just arguing to be contrarian at this point

It's weird that you keep accusing me of not arguing in good faith because you disagree with my honest thoughts and feelings while at the same time getting annoyed that people don't see your side of things. It's also weird that you keep getting frustrated with this discussion and yet replying to me when you honestly don't have to, just like I don't "have to" earn achievements. Again, what happened to all that "just ignore it" advice?

 

[Fisty]

It's weird that you keep accusing me of not arguing in good faith because you disagree with my honest thoughts and feelings while at the same time getting annoyed that people don't see your side of things. It's also weird that you keep getting frustrated with this discussion and yet replying to me when you honestly don't have to, just like I don't "have to" earn achievements. Again, what happened to all that "just ignore it" advice?

My argument is more options is better. Your argument is we shouldn't be given the option. Can you sense my frustration?

 

[Nepenthe]

Hold on...THIS isn't entirely fair and this is from the ONLY the first page of this thread.

What do kneejerk responses have to do with the point that options have an effect on games?

When you can turn trophies off...or you need to dig for them like you can find in Xenoblade Chronicles. They don't hurt the game. They simply don't. It seriously comes down to people that can't handle knowing that they even exist for the game.

People can handle it just as well as people are handling the horrifying thought that people don't want achievements in a game that already released without achievements. The pro-achievement side has absolutely no high ground with regards to attitude, mental state, or assumptions of the other side here.

I don't need a pat on the back every time I do something in a game. Playing the game is indeed it's own reward. What I like about trophies and achievements is that I can track them. I can look at what I've done and I can look at what my friends have done and thanks to certain websites I can look at what whole communities have done and I find that stuff interesting.

People have been tracking their progress, their friend's progress, and the progress of communities through other means long before achievements came to exist. Do you think people just didn't talk about games or share information on the playground or in online chats and magazines back then? There was a culture of sharing interesting game accomplishments and secrets that didn't rely on achievements to exist.

There are so...SO many options in Breath of the Wild. It would be interesting to see how many people have defeated Ganon without defeating the guardians, etc...

It would be interesting to see how many people have flown continuously for 15 minutes or a kilometer (I'm not saying you can do this. I'm just giving terrible examples)

I gotta be honest. That shit is so fucking arbitrary and random that I don't see any real need to have access to that information. I have no desire whatsoever to know how many people walked 1 million kilometers or ate a trillion wild berries or whatever other nonsense you could potentially track in a game. Honestly, is this normal nowadays?

 

[Nanashrew]

Tbh, I don't feel trophies/achievements should have ever been mandatory for games like they became. Just like how in-game achievements weren't always mandatory either. But those that did in-game achievements could often keep you replaying cause it wants you to do all these little and big challenges and doing them in unique ways, something a lot of system achievements/trophies lack.

I think making them mandatory only means we just get a set standard in the end, losing creative and interesting achievements because the dev/pub have to keep up with every game they release.

 

[Nepenthe]

My argument is more options is better. Your argument is we shouldn't be given the option. Can you sense my frustration?

My actual argument is that different options have different effects on different game, however minor those effects are, depending upon the contexts they appear in or the nature of the game's gameplay systems and artistic goals, and that we should be able to talk about these things and at least question the nature of achievements as a whole without achievement fans knee-jerking that people who aren't onboard the cheevo train just trying to ruin everything, or we can't handle the existence of achievements due to some implied deficiency with free will, or whatever other fucking qualifier you and pro-achievement people want to level onto us.

So do you see MY frustration, especially when I haven't even said achievements shouldn't exist at all? You come across as not even wanting a discussion versus trying to force your viewpoint down my throat, and then getting mad that I'm not falling for it. You keep trying to frame me as someone taking something very previous away from you (in a fucking thread about a game that doesn't even have achievements anyway, meaning there's actually nothing to take away in this scenario- my goodness gracious), which is why I'm insistent on you and me not continuing this discussion if you're gonna act like that.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

People have been tracking their progress, their friend's progress, and the progress of communities through other means long before achievements came to exist. Do you think people just didn't talk about games or share information on the playground or in online chats and magazines back then?

See? Now you're just being a smug ass.


I actually wrote more but...forget it. You do your thing man.

Trophies and achievements are terrible. You're amazing.

 

[Fisty]

My actual argument is that different options have different effects on different game, however minor those effects are, depending upon the contexts they appear in or the nature of the game's gameplay systems and artistic goals, and that we should be able to talk about these things and at least question the nature of achievements as a whole without achievement fans knee-jerking that people who aren't onboard the cheevo train just trying to ruin everything, or we can't handle the existence of achievements due to some implied deficiency with free will, or whatever other fucking qualifier you and pro-achievement people want to level onto us.

So do you see MY frustration, especially when I haven't even said achievements shouldn't exist at all? You come across as not even wanting a discussion versus trying to force your viewpoint down my throat, and then getting mad that I'm not falling for it. You keep trying to frame me as someone taking something very previous away from you (in a fucking thread about a game that doesn't even have achievements anyway, meaning there's actually nothing to take away in this scenario- my goodness gracious), which is why I'm insistent on you and me not continuing this discussion if you're gonna act like that.

If you can give me ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of trophies or achievements ruining a game or scene, taking into account that the notification can be turned off, I will happily concede. Just one, single instance. That's all I'm asking for.

 

[Nepenthe]

See? Now you're just being a smug ass.


I actually wrote more but...forget it. You do your thing man.

Trophies and achievements are terrible. You're amazing.

How am I being a smug ass by pointing out the way people used to share information and personal achievements in games before system-set achievements came along? This is exactly the kind of ironically-reactionary hypocrisy I was talking about earlier.

Also, I'm a woman.

If you can give me ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of trophies or achievements ruining a game or scene, taking into account that the notification can be turned off, I will happily concede. Just one, single instance. That's all I'm asking for.

What are you talking about? Where did I say achievements have actually ruined games? I specifically said we should be able to critique achievements, their systems, and how they might change the context of the games they exist in without their fans shitting themselves over the actual act of criticism. On top of that, I've already outlined my feelings about how an achievement system would fit into Breath of the Wild, numerous times, as have other people. I even gave a fucking example of a game where achievements would happily fit into- Yooka-Laylee.

Until you can actually comprehend one of my posts without getting outraged that I don't agree with you, please, take your own advice for once and ignore me.

 

[Fisty]

What are you talking about? Where did I say achievements have actually ruined games? I specifically said we should be able to critique achievements, their systems, and how they might change the context of the games they exist in without their fans shitting themselves over the actual act of criticism. On top of that, I've already outlined my feelings about how an achievement system would fit into Breath of the Wild, numerous times, as have other people. I even gave a fucking example of a game where achievements would happily fit into- Yooka-Laylee.

Until you can actually comprehend one of my posts without getting outraged that I don't agree with you, please, take your own advice for once and ignore me.

So you can admit there aren't any instances where trophies have actively detracted or affected games for people that turn the option off. So there is no reason not to give the option to have them... other than the fact that them being there means that... they are there? And there would be some psychological or existensial crisis involved with people who have the ability to get a picture of golden shit in addition to an inventory item, because they are aware on some subliminal level that even though they don't see it, or hear it, or even know it happens... that somewhere in the background a box was checked.

 

[Nepenthe]

So you can admit there aren't any instances where trophies have actively detracted or affected games for people that turn the option off. So there is no reason not to give the option to have them... other than the fact that them being there means that... they are there? And there would be some psychological or existensial crisis involved with people who have the ability to get a picture of golden shit in addition to an inventory item, because they are aware on some subliminal level that even though they don't see it, or hear it, or even know it happens... that somewhere in the background a box was checked.

Again, why aren't you taking your advice to ignore me if you can't actually handle a proper conversation on something that's "optional?"

 

[Fisty]

Again, why aren't you taking your advice to ignore me if you can't actually handle a proper conversation on something that's "optional?"

Run out of straw men? Or just tired from moving all those goalposts?

 

[Boy Wander]

Why do so many people on this forum who dont want to actually discuss stuff always roll out the old "straw man" line. It adds nothing and I rarely see an argument as to why someone's argument is actually a straw man, leading me to believe that half of the people that roll out this phrase don't really know what it means and use it as a convenient discussion stopper.

 

[ShinAmano]

Yes...i love achievements.

That said not one for collecting the seeds 900 is just silly.

 

[Fisty]

Why do so many people on this forum who dont want to actually discuss stuff always roll out the old "straw man" line. It adds nothing and I rarely see an argument as to why someone's argument is actually a straw man, leading me to believe that half of the people that roll out this phrase don't really know what it means and use it as a convenient discussion stopper.

Well you could actually read the posts and find out instead of lamenting about what you don't see because you probably can't be bothered to look 1 or 2 pages back

 

[Nepenthe]

Run out of straw men? Or just tired from moving all those goalposts?

Now you're just saying whichever random fallacy pops up into your head like an unwanted achievement notification bar without demonstrating their applicability to any of my arguments. This is not only ironic because you've consistently insisted I've said things I never did without ever reneging or apologizing whenever I pointed this out, thereby being the one who's actually making a straw man (can you please look through my post history and find out where I said achievements have ruined games or are you just going to keep "ignoring" that), but this is after you demanded to me that I demonstrate the above parenthetical to change your mind (as if this were ever an honest dialogue) which is, once again, something I never actually said, which is not so much moving the goal posts so much as it is demanding the game be played in a fucking volcano and then getting mad when someone says no.

You are shit at discussing things with people you disagree with. Full stop.

 

[Nickle]

The game doesn't need achievements, you probably just feel unsatisfied with the lack of progression the game has. Apart from the champion abilities, you don't really get new abilities over the course of the game.

 

[Ushay]

I wouldn't mind one, there are so many cool milestones in this game.

On Xbox you get a cool wallpaper/background with the achievement making it worthwhile.

 

[Nanashrew]

Well you could actually read the posts and find out instead of lamenting about what you don't see because you probably can't be bothered to look 1 or 2 pages back

Looking on the past pages, Nepenthe doesn't look to be for or against, but trying to have a discussion why some may like the achievement system and others don't, but also why the systems shouldn't have to be in every game because of their nature and how achievements are often utilized in games. They're not really wrong though in that trophies and achievements can actually have an effect on a person that some feel it can be a limit to choice for the player and how they want to go about doing something or how they play the game to get those achievements/trophies. There was a time I was hyped for trophies in games when I first got my PS3 but over time I began to realize I wasn't having too much fun going after them. For me, they didn't provide me with enough value I was looking for, and in some games, it felt like some didn't need to be there with how simple they were.

For me personally, it comes down to intrinsic value versus extrinsic value. I find in-game achievements to be far more interesting and rewarding because it's part of the game and made with it and its systems in mind. It's not in all games, but often they want you to achieve your potential in many areas. You're also rewarded with lots of cool in-game stuff, from weapons, to music, to whatever. System level achievements/trophies don't do that. Trophies/achievements aren't offering me much extrinsic value outside of just a popup on the screen that I did a thing or completed a chapter. They're often not unique enough either in trying to get you to explore a world or your potential as a player.

But in the end, I personally believe not all games really need achievements/trophies because as it has become mandatory it has also become so simple and boring and do nothing. They're not fun because most of the time you're doing the things the game asks you to do anyway and it's lazy being rewarded for making the most basic of progress treating the player like a baby who needs to be rewarded for every little thing. At least to me. There can be so much fun in just letting your curiosity drive you and playing the game how you want to play it and doing what you want to do.

 

[Liliana Eileen]

Now you're just saying whichever random fallacy pops up into your head like an unwanted achievement notification bar without demonstrating their applicability to any of my arguments.

Hot damn. I think you broke his soul.

 

[The Hermit]

the lack of " you did X" notification was such a welcome addition.

I also love that the game doesn't tell how many shrines/ korok seed/ stuff you are missing and only shows the % at the end.
I wish every game did this instead of becoming a "progress checklist" like Xenoblade X.

EDIT: if you need achievements to enjoy a game, you need to evaluate why you play games at all.

 

[afternoon delight]

You Did It: 100 points - Find and conquer your first beast
You Did It Again: 100 points - Find and conquer your second beast
Wowsers: 100 points - Find and conquer your third beast
Whoa there: 100 points - Find and conquer your fourth beast
Gee: 10 points - Tame a horse.
Nelly: 10 points - Cook 100 times.
Ho Ho Ho: 10 points - Cook 150 times.
Ho Ho Hoersons: 100 points - Cook 300 times;
Cooking: 10 points - Craft an elixir.
Cooking with heat: 100 points - Craft 100 elixirs.
Watch it!: 10 points - Make a sprint potion.
Oh wow: 100 points - Make ten sprint potions.

Requote and add for official list voting

 

[Nanashrew]

You Did It: 100 points - Find and conquer your first beast
You Did It Again: 100 points - Find and conquer your second beast
Wowsers: 100 points - Find and conquer your third beast
Whoa there: 100 points - Find and conquer your fourth beast
Gee: 10 points - Tame a horse.
Nelly: 10 points - Cook 100 times.
Ho Ho Ho: 10 points - Cook 150 times.
Ho Ho Hoersons: 100 points - Cook 300 times;
Cooking: 10 points - Craft an elixir.
Cooking with heat: 100 points - Craft 100 elixirs.
Watch it!: 10 points - Make a sprint potion.
Oh wow: 100 points - Make ten sprint potions.

Requote and add for official list voting

Yahaha!: You found your first Korok!

Wahaha!: You got an extra slot in your inventory!

 

[test_account]

This.

There's a group out there that don't seem to get that the thing that controls how you play a game...is you.


Go search the Nioh thread were people were shouting from the rooftops about how an altogether optional "slow time" spell in Nioh was breaking the entire game and turning it into "easy mode".


There were people posting that just knowing that the option exists means they have to use it. Or simply knowing the option exists ruins it for them.


This thread really isn't that different from that one.

Somewhere along the line...some gamers got really fucking weird about self-control.

Indeed. I do get that its tempting to take the easy way, like using a powerful spell or weapon if its available, but if it ruins the game for people doing so, why go that route in the first place? I dont see any reason to do that. Back in the days when cheat codes were quite common, it would be the same, that people "had" to use those because they knew about them.

People can handle it just as well as people are handling the horrifying thought that people don't want achievements in a game that already released without achievements. The pro-achievement side has absolutely no high ground with regards to attitude, mental state, or assumptions of the other side here.

I'm not sure about that actually. If they can handle it just as well, why argue such strong about not including them? I totally get that people dont want it, but if its optional and can be turned off, why does it even matter if its included and people have total self control about not letting such in-game challenges ruin their fun with the game?

People have been tracking their progress, their friend's progress, and the progress of communities through other means long before achievements came to exist. Do you think people just didn't talk about games or share information on the playground or in online chats and magazines back then? There was a culture of sharing interesting game accomplishments and secrets that didn't rely on achievements to exist.

While true, those things cant give the same type of information. Trophies (and maybe achievements too) give a percentage stat on how many that have completed stuff. For example, you'd never know that the platinum completion rate for the Souls games are around 15-20 percent. Personally i find things like that interesting enough.

 

[flozuki]

Your trophy is to discover something cool. I am happy to not be part of this forced collectathon stuff (anymore).

 

[kunonabi]

the lack of " you did X" notification was such a welcome addition.

I also love that the game doesn't tell how many shrines/ korok seed/ stuff you are missing and only shows the % at the end.
I wish every game did this instead of becoming a "progress checklist" like Xenoblade X.

Aside from the play awards xenoblade x does a much better job of not being a progress checklist than botw ever will.

 

[test_account]

Your trophy is to discover something cool. I am happy to not be part of this forced collectathon stuff (anymore).

Forced? It was never forced =)

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Achievements in this game would have been fun. There are so many little interactions, sights and sounds, that you could craft a long list of interesting feats for gamers to try. If they're optional and unobtrusive I don't see the harm.

 

[The Hermit]

Aside from the play awards xenoblade x does a much better job of not being a progress checklist than botw ever will.

how? the have achievements and progress % of every single shit you do

"Oh you saved a dog? Now that segment of the town is 13,56% complete"

 

[Nepenthe]

Looking on the past pages, Nepenthe doesn't look to be for or against, but trying to have a discussion why some may like the achievement system and others don't, but also why the systems shouldn't have to be in every game because of their nature and how achievements are often utilized in games.

FINALLY.

SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME.

THIS IS ALL I WANTED TO DEBATE ABOUT.

I'm not sure about that actually. If they can handle it just as well, why argue such strong about not including them? I totally get that people dont want it, but if its optional and can be turned off, why does it even matter if its included and people have total self control about not letting such in-game challenges ruin their fun with the game?

My current fervor in arguing is as a result of the currently contemptuous environment here that keeps going "Nope! Nothing to see here! Achievements are perfect in every single application! Don't criticize them or you're taking away my choice!" as well as people's insistence on attributing arguments to me that I don't subscribe to. But honestly, I once again think this fervor in arguing isn't exclusive to one side, because if achievements aren't really that big of a deal, then the three people who showed their asses to me and had meltdowns over a difference in opinion over something "totally optional" never would've bitched out in the first place, to say nothing of the many others who have taken on weird victim complexes through sarcastic language like "achievements are the devil."

Anyways, I've also stated plenty of times why the implementation of achievements matters- they are a modern mechanic of games that effects the psychology of those who realize they're there, and on their own they have probably not be implemented in the best of ways, relying on arbitrary, unnatural, or brain-dead parameters for rewards. It doesn't matter that you can turn them off no more than it matters that you can ignore shitty music by muting your TV. They exist, they have an effect when on, thus they can be criticized inherently as a mechanic and within their application to certain games.

While true, those things cant give the same type of information. Trophies (and maybe achievements too) give a percentage stat on how many that have completed stuff. For example, you'd never know that the platinum completion rate for the Souls games are around 15-20 percent. Personally i find things like that interesting enough.

I personally don't really care for this kind of frivolous information, but regardless, why not just log it in the system's background as something you can check whenever? Why tie that to an achievement system when statistics can just be tallied on their own?

 

[Boy Wander]

Well you could actually read the posts and find out instead of lamenting about what you don't see because you probably can't be bothered to look 1 or 2 pages back

Yeah I've been reading for several pages and I found it rather ironic that you were choosing to accuse someone who'd explained what they were trying to discuss in some detail of building a strawman. This person wasn't shooting down your position by attacking a different position, they were just explaining why achievements work better in some games than others.

 

[Fisty]

Yeah I've been reading for several pages and I found it rather ironic that you were choosing to accuse someone who'd explained what they were trying to discuss in some detail of building a strawman. This person wasn't shooting down your position by attacking a different position, they were just explaining why achievements work better in some games than others.

Feel free to check out post #726. I was telling someone else that gaming doesn't have to stay exactly like it was in 1995 just because that person specifically likes it that way. Then the poster I accused of straw manning replied to that post saying they don't like Pavlovian psychological torture methods (trophies) and they think people who like them are drug pushers or something.

I think that's called building a straw man.

 

[Nepenthe]

psychological torture methods

drug pushers

Please CTRL+F this shit and see that there will be "no results found."

 

[Fisty]

Here I'll just quote with bolded for readability

I care to a degree because I don't find it admirable or welcome that people who have made it clear that they rely on a deliberately coded system of Pavlovian conditioning to manage playing a video game anymore wish to impart their psychological addiction on everyone else in every single game, even games that made a deliberate decision to eschew modern gaming conventions within reason as an artistic choice.

Feel free to try and flip that whichever way you want.

 

[Nepenthe]

Here I'll just quote with bolded for readability



Feel free to try and flip that whichever way you want.

Let's also ignore the continued hypocrisy in the fact that the post I responded to (which, hilariously, was yours) in that manner was also a strawman. A dude said back then, games didn't use achievements to entice people to play. You replied in the most sarcastic, asshole-ish way with basically "Guess we're gonna get rid of every modern gaming convenience now!" and that no one cares about his preference for past gaming conventions. Noticing this, I throw some shade back at you about Pavlovian conditioning (which is what achievements actually are, while the dude said nothing about engaging in total Neo-Luddism), and you flip your shit for two pages. Over a fight you started.

You still haven't found where I said people who like achievements are drug pushers, or that achievements are psychological torture methods. Probably because I never said it, and you're either really hard at reading comprehension or just a really bad liar.

You should work at IMAX with all this projecting you're doing.

 

[Fisty]

Let's also ignore the continued hypocrisy in the fact that the post I responded to (which, hilariously, was yours) in that manner was also a strawman. A dude said back then, games didn't use achievements to entice people to play. You replied in the most sarcastic, asshole-ish way with basically "Guess we're gonna get rid of every modern gaming convenience now!" I throw some shade back at you about Pavlovian conditioning (which is what achievements actually are, while the dude said nothing about engaging in total Neo-Luddism), and you flip your shit for two pages.

You still haven't found where I said people who like achievements are drug pushers, or that achievements are psychological torture methods. Probably because I never said it, and you're either really hard at reading comprehension or just a really bad liar.

You should work at IMAX with all this projecting you're doing.

No need to lie, its all there for anyone to read. And to think I flipped my shit for 2 pages? Nah. Especially over your argument, which I guess boils down to... people shouldn't be given an option they can ignore if they choose to because the achievement system isn't perfect? I don't even know anymore. Regardless, i hope you will try to enjoy playing games even though they are secretly giving you trophies and you can't do anything about it. Just call me the Pusherman 👍

 

[Nepenthe]

No need to lie, its all there for anyone to read.

No. It's not. Those words literally never entered my posts. You made them up, because you caught feelings that someone in the thread wasn't gonna roll over for your shitty-ass attitude.

And to think I flipped my shit for 2 pages? Nah. Especially over your argument, which I guess boils down to... people shouldn't be given an option they can ignore if they choose to because the achievement system isn't perfect?

Wow. You honestly can't read. I feel really bad being sarcastic to you now because I didn't know I was talking to someone with such a low level of literacy.

I don't even know anymore. Regardless, i hope you will try to enjoy playing games even though they are secretly giving you trophies and you can't do anything about it. Just call me the Pusherman ��

I hope one day the education system redeems itself and you are able to read and comprehend basic arguments about unnecessary video game systems.

 

[Fisty]

No. It's not. Those words literally never entered my posts. You made them up, because you caught feelings that someone in the thread wasn't gonna roll over for your shitty-ass attitude.



Wow. You honestly can't read. I feel really bad being sarcastic to you now because I didn't know I was talking to someone with such a low level of literacy.



I hope one day the education system redeems itself and you are able to read and comprehend basic arguments about unnecessary video game systems.

I guess we're at the ad hominem stage of our debate now.

You're a big poopie head and you smell like old cheese.

Spoiler

We probably should have taken this to PMs about 10 posts ago

 

[Nepenthe]

We probably should have taken this to PMs about 10 posts ago.

Nope. There's nothing to take to PMs. You've been strawmanning me this entire time, refusing to go back and confirm the clarifications I've made- clarifications that other posters have noted- and insisting that I've been demonizing you and anyone else, while all this time you've basically been performing these very actions yourself. Over achievements in a game that doesn't have any. Take your fucking L.

 

[Chitown B]

The usual chorus of "purists" arguing ineffectively against trophies. Adding them to any game has zero downside.

These types don't like them because then they feel they HAVE to go for them if they exist. You can just ignore them...

 

[fvng]

You're trying way too hard. That wasn't my response, nice cherry pick. I quoted an entire paragraph of you throwing a fit over someones opinion in response to you saying you were only providing "counter-arguments." That entire paragraph embodied everything about your rant that was being responded to. Your response is "you got nothing." Uh, what?

I tell you if you know how opinions work, which is a valid criticism to your rant, and you follow by asking me the EXACT same sentence verbatim in all your responses.

I am ending this right here because you seemingly lack the comprehensional skills for a valid argument, and have proven my point without realizing it. Plus, this thread is already full of back and forths from everyone. PM me if you wish to continue, otherwise go ahead with your last word having, edgy witty retort.

Yeah I"m not gonna PM you since you only operate in strawman arguments and don't even realize you're doing the very things you're claiming I'm doing. You've wasted people's time in this thread. I literally quoted you and you're saying that wasn't your response, you really dont have any self awareness do you? I said 'you got nothing" because your response to my post whether you disagree with me or not was not a genuine effort at an intelligent response. You say you know how opinions work? Terrific, accept mine and others and move on with your life.

Making up stuff to argue against, and you can't even get the details correct. People jumped shipped because xbox tried to fuck the world and dropped backwards compatibility for launch. Same for the ps4 with backwards compatibility. And the ps4 still has achievements, so it's not like they were leaving them behind. Cheevs are a bullet point MSFT made up to give their paid ecosystem value, especially since paid online is still the greatest scam in the video game industry.

You clearly can't read. You made a point that trophies are just a gimmick to retain customers within an eco system, and I brought up the mass exodus of customers from MS to Sony as evidence that accumulated achievements are not some massive anchor preventing people from leaving their ecosystem. People will happily abandon their achievements for a sufficient reason. You either can't read or are misrepresenting my argument to make it easy to argue against. I don't know how else to make this clearer to you.

 

[CEJames]

If you and people that like them would advocate for a trohpy-reward system, even if it is like a stupid avatar pic, I would be all for trophies.

So would you?

Out of all this back and forth craziness, where I understand both sides (though some are definitely extreme), all in all, I think your idea would trump ALL of these arguments because people love actual rewards that would go along with them spending $60 (or more) dollars for a game, other than giving a reason to explore the game more.

The only game that IMO has a worthwhile platinum trophy is Bloodborne as you get something out of it. Don't know about any other examples.

Two other examples are The Last Guardian & Horizon Zero Dawn. They both give you themes for getting the platinum.

Nintendo's "My Nintendo" loyalty program is a less-than-stellar disappointment (as of right now) compared to what the Club Nintendo loyalty program used to be, but what if they added an achievement system like they have on their mobile games Mario Run & Fire Emblem, that gives platinum or gold points with each trophy( or experience toward points) you acquire in a game based on its difficulty/challenge. I believe that wouldn't be a "meaningless" award.

Sony & Microsoft could offer something similar with what they already have like experience for every trophy toward a 5 or 10 dollar digital coupon.

Agree?

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Out of all this back and forth craziness, where I understand both sides (though some are definitely extreme), all in all, I think your idea would trump ALL of these arguments because people love actual rewards that would go along with them spending $60 (or more) dollars for a game, other than giving a reason to explore the game more.

I still don't understand this. I mean, getting an avatar is cool and all, but why this feeling that you need something more for playing a game than... just playing? That's my whole issue with this., it happens in literally no other medium, are the current game experiences so bad that we feel like we need more out of it? Is it because games are longer than books and movies? I mean, you know what you're getting into.

 

[qko]

No. I don't need the game to document that I found or did something cool. I know I did. I was there

Pic or it didn't happen. It's possible to take a picture. Therefore it did happen. Problem solved.

 

[test_account]

My current fervor in arguing is as a result of the currently contemptuous environment here that keeps going "Nope! Nothing to see here! Achievements are perfect in every single application! Don't criticize them or you're taking away my choice!" as well as people's insistence on attributing arguments to me that I don't subscribe to. But honestly, I once again think this fervor in arguing isn't exclusive to one side, because if achievements aren't really that big of a deal, then the three people who showed their asses to me and had meltdowns over a difference in opinion over something "totally optional" never would've bitched out in the first place, to say nothing of the many others who have taken on weird victim complexes through sarcastic language like "achievements are the devil."

Fair enough. I was thinking more in general, not saying that you were arguing strongly against it, just to have mentioned that.

Anyways, I've also stated plenty of times why the implementation of achievements matters- they are a modern mechanic of games that effects the psychology of those who realize they're there, and on their own they have probably not be implemented in the best of ways, relying on arbitrary, unnatural, or brain-dead parameters for rewards. It doesn't matter that you can turn them off no more than it matters that you can ignore shitty music by muting your TV. They exist, they have an effect when on, thus they can be criticized inherently as a mechanic and within their application to certain games.

I wouldnt compare it to muting the TV. Then you're ignoring an element that is tied directly into the game design itself, the sound. Achievements/trophies are not part of the game design at all, those are just an added layer on top. For example, Zelda:BotW would be the exact same game design wise even if it has trophies or not. Thats why people argue that its completely optional in that sense, which they are.

When it comes to having a psychological effect, that is true, but this can be said about many things in gaming, so how do people who argue against the effect of an achievement system deal with those things? To take some examples:


- Cheat codes. These arent that common today, but were quite common back in the days. And they are of course still there when playing retro games today. On PC, we also have so called "trainers", small programs that allows you to cheat in games offline.

- In-game achievement systems/stat tracking. Many games have either some in-game achievement and/or stat tracking system. Examples are Zelda: BotW, Smash Bros, Shovel Knight.

- Leaderboards. Some people want to maintain a high Kill/Death ratio and such things.

- Dynamic ranking. Some games have dynamic ranking in certain modes, meaning that you can rank down if you lose matches while playing online. Examples are Splatoon, Uncharted 4, Metal Gear Solid Online, Motorstorm Pacific Rift.

- The ability to grind and leveling up. Many RPGs have respawning enemies, allowing the player to grind and level up a lot more than intended, making the game much easier.


I'm sure that there are arguements to how some of these things matter less compared to other things, that is all subjective afterall, but the point is that all of those things can have a psychological effect on people in the same way that an achievement system has. All of those things i mentioned are also optional. So what is the best solution?

I personally don't really care for this kind of frivolous information, but regardless, why not just log it in the system's background as something you can check whenever? Why tie that to an achievement system when statistics can just be tallied on their own?

Thats fine. Its all subjective, so theres no right or wrong answer to this. Others do like those type of fun facts though But do you care about trophies in a negative way? Trophies can also be described as a frivolous thing.

Well, if you have a system that keeps statistics about things like that, that could also have a psychological effect on people though? It would basically be an achievement system because if you want to be part of a specific part of the statistic, you have to certain things in the game thats being tracked.

 

[Nepenthe]

I wouldnt compare it to muting the TV. Then you're ignoring an element that is tied directly into the game design itself, the sound. Achievements/trophies are not part of the game design at all, those are just an added layer on top. For example, Zelda:BotW would be the exact same game design wise even if it has trophies or not. Thats why people argue that its completely optional in that sense, which they are.

I don't think it's a perfect comparison, but I think it goes into demonstrating why I think it's silly to tell people to ignore systems that may be flawed. If a more perfect comparison is necessary, consider a game that has a built-in option where you could mute the music without also muting the rest of the sound effects? Does that make bad or ill-fitting music okay?

And I disagree; I do think achievements are part of the game because they are activated by in-game accomplishments. The fact that they are applied later is a distinction I feel doesn't change the core argument in the same way I feel that changing Lynel drops wouldn't really fundamentally change most of BotW's mechanics, although it would have an effect on how people may or may not approach Lynels on average.

When it comes to having a psychological effect, that is true, but this can be said about many things in gaming, so how do people who argue against the effect of an achievement system deal with those things?

I'm sure that there are arguements to how some of these things matter less compared to other things, that is all subjective afterall, but the point is that all of those things can have a psychological effect on people in the same way that an achievement system has. All of those things i mentioned are also optional. So what is the best solution?

Note that I don't think it's wrong for features of games to have a psychological effect on the player. Rather, I think that's the working goal of art- to utilize a medium's tools and theory in order to guarantee specific emotional and behavioral reactions out of an audience. In terms of games, that mainly means trying to guide behavior, and I feel you can pin down a reason for why most mechanics exist in good games. This goes for achievements too, and I honestly felt baffled that people aren't willing to admit that they too affect the player simply because they are optional.

So I don't think mechanics having a psychological effect is wrong. Rather, I think that's inherent; impossible to escape. The question isn't what do we do about those effects, but rather how should we go about making sure anything added to a game- whether or not it's optional- has the intended effect on the player in the context of both communicating the game's mechanics and also upholding a game's artistic intent?

This is where I reiterate my position on Breath of the Wild; the fact that the game is a deliberate callback to the first which didn't have achievements, much less most modern bells, whistles, and handholding and potential flaws of modern open world game design, and is simultaneously a game that pushes the player to perform acts and feats for the sake of their own volition and little else, makes me feel it would be at odds with the game to be saddled with a permanent checklist of arbitrary actions for you to do, things that you never decided to do but which hang over your head regardless. A player is more likely going feel the urge to do these things to some degree should they be there, but whether or not they act on it is irrelevant, because the urge itself- the psychological effect- is the real point of contention. The idea of BotW or the Nintendo console itself asking you to do anything in the game aside from destroy Ganon would undermine its artistic intent as I personally comprehend it, and thus if I were working on the game I wouldn't have even advocated software-side achievements! I would want the player to make the bulk of their decisions on what simply ignited their own curiosity and imagination, and hope to God that the world design would be enough to translate those thoughts into adventures.

Thats fine. Its all subjective, so theres no right or wrong answer to this. Others do like those type of fun facts though But do you care about trophies in a negative way? Trophies can also be described as a frivolous thing.

I actually think their frivolity is their biggest flaw. I can't put my finger on why they objectively exist in light of other mechanics and realities of game design, so I ask "why is this here?"

Note: I approach the design of art from the point of view of a budding animator. In animation, the key is efficiency- every single thing in an animated film has a dedicated purpose for being, if only because you can't waste time and money on shit that doesn't matter to the end product. Because games are similar in that the majority are complete constructs of the imagination, I assign a similar standard of design to them. And honestly I haven't seen anything- in all my years of gaming- that doesn't make me think achievement systems in general aren't just an extra layer of bloat that could go away today and absolutely not have a detrimental effect on games (after all, isn't their high lack of necessity the supposed appeal? If they aren't necessary to anything, that includes existing.)

Rewarding the player for in-game actions? That's a basic principle of game design and is achieved in the game itself.

Pushing the player to do things they otherwise wouldn't do? Why can't these out-of-the-way, arbitrary, or sometimes contradictory challenges just be clues and sidequests within the game itself already that- again- reward you for completing them?

Tracking player progress? That was a thing that games were already doing to various degrees, and thus I see it as weirdly roundabout to tack a basic counting and ratio system onto one where you have to activate it system side. Why not just give out player statistics if people really want them that badly?

Logging cool things? Built-in recording features are becoming more and more part of the modern gaming environment. Even Zelda has a digital camera.

Nostalgia tied to specific accomplishments? That's...just how nostalgia works in general.

In short, I feel there is literally nothing achievement systems do that games weren't already doing disparately. They're little more than reiterative and haven't lived up to any real potential (what if they consistently rewarded you with meta or console-exclusive in-game rewards you could use in the game as well as on your profile? The question of relevance and purpose would still remain, but at least I could see why people would dole out the time to get that sweet-ass Microsoft gun, or even just extra resources). Ultimately, I feel you could abolish the whole system without fundamentally disrupting how games are made and played, because all these systems do is repackage existing incentives and mechanics up into a redundant system that lies on top of plain ol' game design.

And again, they're 100% optional. If I can turn them off without literally any detrimental effect, how do they then justify themselves as worth existing? They need a hook or a mechanic that gives them a unique purpose, that gives them an effect on games that makes the experience with them mutually exclusive from the experience without, like simple online matchmaking does. They're not paying their own way, so I see no reason why it's bad that Nintendo consoles don't have them. If they're totally ignorable, that's not fundamentally different from being totally useless.

Well, if you have a system that keeps statistics about things like that, that could also have a psychological effect on people though? It would basically be an achievement system because if you want to be part of a specific part of the statistic, you have to certain things in the game thats being tracked.

It would depend upon the implementation of those statistics. Logging how many Lynels you killed in a vacuum doesn't present a competitive element outside of one you make yourself. Telling me I- and only I- have killed ten Lynels is floating information I can do anything with: I can note it and move on, or I can use it as tracking to kill 100 Lynels as my own self-imposed challenge, which I think fits the spirit and design goals of the game just fine. Compounded information, a list of Lynels everyone playing the game has killed without any indication of individual player percentages, is even more abstract. On the other hand, leaderboards would definitely introduce a competitive element because they rank all players in an easily-accessed system, and I don't think that would be in line with BotW's design.

EDIT: I don't know why I kept using Lynels as references. I guess I'm still on the high of defeating a white one. xD