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Aonuma: I've been remaking Ocarina of Time for years; OoT is "not that good" today.
- Thread starter ThatObviousUser
- Start date
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I agree. After Okami 2 and 3 the formula got stale.soldat7 said:
Rez said:
I still remember my face when I first saw the ad spots for the game. It wasn't too far from the They were so out there (yet masterfully done) that my first thought was "... No way, Nintendo?!" :lol
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
okami peaked in prerelease screenshots and video.
OoT is the only Zelda game I completely finished and I enjoyed it back then but I can't go back to it now for shit. Such horrible camera/controls. It isn't worth the wrestling with all the dated mechanics.
Needless to say, I agree. A game like OoT is nowhere near "timeless," for me. A timeless game is something I still play semi/regularly.
Needless to say, I agree. A game like OoT is nowhere near "timeless," for me. A timeless game is something I still play semi/regularly.
Epic Tier 3 Engineer
Banned
Well I went back and played Ocarina a year or so ago and I think it's a finely crafted game. People say it doesn't hold up today, but I find that to be completely false. Good design is eternal. The first 2 Zelda games are decrepit now, but the Ocarina formula is still used to this day, and by games that feature a fraction of the ingenious level design.
I'm looking directly at Okami. It's a fine game, no doubt, but the dungeon design is so stale.
I think Twilight Princess is a great game, though. What the hell do I know.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I absolutely trust wherever Aonuma takes the series.
I'm looking directly at Okami. It's a fine game, no doubt, but the dungeon design is so stale.
I think Twilight Princess is a great game, though. What the hell do I know.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I absolutely trust wherever Aonuma takes the series.
autobzooty
Member
Eiji Aonuma said:
It's so encouraging when the director of the game fucking gets it. This statement makes me very hopeful for the next Zelda game.
I don't think the formula needs to really be changed up. The puzzles are easy enough to figure out, but you still feel pretty clever when you solve them. They get the right mix of challenge and fun in that regard.
I think an inclusion of a real jump button would be welcome to allow a little more exploration.
Also, don't make the bosses a fucking joke.
I think an inclusion of a real jump button would be welcome to allow a little more exploration.
Also, don't make the bosses a fucking joke.
andymcc said:
Bullshit
I just played through it last week (finished it in a day) on a SNES and it was just as good last week was it was when it came out.
I know that game inside and out and its still a blast to play.
The only way I can play OoT is the VC version or the GC version. The original version is a bloody mess.
As for Zelda Wii, Nintendo really does need to change it up a bit. They've been milking the same formula since A Link to the Past.
Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
Disagree. I think the first Zelda and LTTP both hold up extremely well.
I never really cared for Zelda 2 as a kid. I replayed it and enjoyed it a bit more as an adult, but the lack of nostalgia held back my opinion a bit.
The original Zelda and LTTP are still two of the best games ever made, IMO of course. I think the 3d Zelda's all hold up very well, but the boss fights need a bit more challenge in them. Especially those in TP. Some of them were well done, but were super easy.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
the first ZELDA and first METROID are both still damn good. they're just difficult, a little wonky sometimes, and nearly impenetrable for people who have never tried them before. i still think there's something to be said for how obscured progress is in either game; a lot of the time you 're left thinking, "NOW what the hell do i do?" and even though that can prove frustrating, there's also something valuable in it where adventure is concerned.
Despite what anyone says, OoT is the best game to me personally. I realize that doesn't make it the "best game ever", because let's face it, there's lots of games and lots of tastes.
OoT captured my imagination as a child, and it truly made me realize why gaming is so awesome.
OoT captured my imagination as a child, and it truly made me realize why gaming is so awesome.
You're insane.Chairman Yang said:
The Zelda control scheme has never had as well since it lost the C-buttons. Nothing they've tried on the consoles since have worked quite as well, because they keep trying to take a system designed around a control scheme and map it into a new controller.
_Alkaline_
Member
beelzebozo said:
Yeah, they're both surprisingly similar games. I think they both hold up great, particularly because we never really get these types of games anymore. I'm not saying that I'm an advocate for the confusing and trial-and-error design of the originals, but it does allow for a distinct sense of satisfaction and achievement.
They may be over 20 years old but there's still a lot to be gained from playing them. They are a very different experience, and even today I think that with a little patience they are still really enjoyable games to play.
I entered this thread expecting to read that Aonuma had casually tossed together a 60fps, 480p remake of OoT with GameCube-level poly counts and textures, but then he declared OoT (and by extension it's remake) to be a lost cause and threw it in the trash/maximum security Nintendo vault, never to be seen again. Obviously, I expected to rage, but the OP's quotes were more reasonable. But I think Aonuma's essentially saying the same thing that I thought he was, and I have to disagree.
I think he's saying that OoT has some problems (artistic problems, like slow pacing and empty fields, not strictly N64-based technical ones), and that his later works like TP don't, but that while TP is "technically" the better game (different use of the word "technical"), people love OoT more, simply because it was first to 3D, and anyone would see that OoT's not better than TP, plain as day, even with a remake, if they took off the nostalgia goggles. So if he wants to see that kind of love again, he has to reinvent waggle, or some shit.
If that's what he's saying, then I don't think I agree with him. I think that all the Zelda games, save for maybe Zelda 2 and Wind Waker if I'm feeling mean, have many unique qualities to them that go beyond things like graphical presentation, and how much effort Aonuma put into the scripting. Sometimes, more effort and overthinking makes art worse. I myself don't feel that OoT is the best Zelda (I like MM and LA more), but if Aonuma can't see why some people love an "inferior" game (yes, there are a lot of people with nostalgia goggles, but there are many others who genuinely look deeper, and if some of those people choose to embrace OoT, that means something), then he's not entirely qualified to see the series through a remake, a sequel, or some sort of reinvention.
I think he's saying that OoT has some problems (artistic problems, like slow pacing and empty fields, not strictly N64-based technical ones), and that his later works like TP don't, but that while TP is "technically" the better game (different use of the word "technical"), people love OoT more, simply because it was first to 3D, and anyone would see that OoT's not better than TP, plain as day, even with a remake, if they took off the nostalgia goggles. So if he wants to see that kind of love again, he has to reinvent waggle, or some shit.
If that's what he's saying, then I don't think I agree with him. I think that all the Zelda games, save for maybe Zelda 2 and Wind Waker if I'm feeling mean, have many unique qualities to them that go beyond things like graphical presentation, and how much effort Aonuma put into the scripting. Sometimes, more effort and overthinking makes art worse. I myself don't feel that OoT is the best Zelda (I like MM and LA more), but if Aonuma can't see why some people love an "inferior" game (yes, there are a lot of people with nostalgia goggles, but there are many others who genuinely look deeper, and if some of those people choose to embrace OoT, that means something), then he's not entirely qualified to see the series through a remake, a sequel, or some sort of reinvention.
cartman414
Member
Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
Strongly disagree. Ocarina is not without its own gameplay issues, and has less in the way of enemies than either of those two games.
Zelda 2 in particular has quite possibly the best combat of any game in the series, better than many other 2d games at that to boot.
beelzebozo said:
Maybe its just me because I've always sucked at Metroid I, but I feel like the first Zelda holds up much better. The need for energy farming in particular ruins that game for me, and I'm so glad they decided to do a remake in the amazing Zero Mission.
Overall though, I love the sense of adventure in both games, and both still hold up very favorably compared to other NES action/adventure games.
_Alkaline_
Member
cartman414 said:
That's about all AoL has to show for itself though. It has a ton of problems.
silverbullet1080
Banned
Wat, TP had the best controls, combat and inventory of any Zelda game :lolSlavik81 said:
Black-Wind
Member
Good thing its on 2 systems!bridegur said:
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Truth. OoT's dungeons were magnificent. Wonderful music, characters I actually somewhat liked, a decently told story, etc.... its biggest fault is its empty overworld.nightez said:
OoT may feel clunky now, particularly the Z-targeting, imprecise camera, and input delay on the controls, but its level design is still fantastic.
e: I think it unfolds better than any recent Zelda. After the Forest Temple, it turns into a series of dungeons loosely held together by the story, but prior to that, the sense of exploration and wonder is always present. I'll always have fond memories of sneaking into Hyrule Castle, visiting Lon Lon Ranch for the first time, making my way up Death Mountain, covered in spiders and subject to landslides, and pulling a Jonah and going inside a fucking whale... then you get the fucking Ocarina after Zelda jets it, go in and pull the sword for the first time, and wow...
That experience is timeless. The graphics, controls, etc. are dated, but that series of events was perfectly paced and memorable.
I can't wait to see what the next "real" Zelda game does...
cartman414
Member
_Alkaline_ said:
It has a handful of problems that are serious enough for many. I wouldn't exactly call it a "ton".
andymcc said:
Agreed on all but Zelda 1.
MisterHero
Super Member
:lol :lol :lol @ Oblivion's post
While Twilight Princess/Wind Waker/Majora's Mask all have OoT beat in certain aspects, I still believe that OoT had the best presentation of any of them. The 3 successors all had grand cutscenes, stories and lovable characters, but OoT took the ones we already really cared for (whilst the later games added characters, OoT gave us Link/Zelda/Ganondorf) and gave it such a dramatic impact for the time that it was just so special. Aside from its leap in gameplay, there are times that Ocarina just feels timeless.
I know there are some GIFs floating around but moments include:
-Link seeing Ganondorf in front of Hyrule Castle
-Viewing Kokiri Forest as Navi flies over/through it
-Deku Tree
-Hyrule Field for the first time
-Zelda's escape, looking back at Link
-Opening the Royal Family's Tomb (especially at night!)
-Darunia's Dance (YES)
-Link escaping Lon Lon Ranch with Epona
-Escaping Ganon's Tower
-Ganon's Transformation
-Sages focusing their power
-Post-Ganon battle/Zelda taking the Ocarina back
-King Zora opening the path to Jabu Jabu
These moments were just so well delivered, from camera angles, to actions and pacing. The players are in the moment and not playing from one cutscene to another.
I believe that Twilight Princess was intentionally going for less 'dramatized' moments in favor of keeping the mood of the present time (most noticeable IMO during Ganondorf's Horse Battle). MM emphasizes Ocarina's style, while Wind Waker changes the presentation through its visuals. While TP is still my favorite of the 3D Zeldas, OoT was just more striking in that way.
While Twilight Princess/Wind Waker/Majora's Mask all have OoT beat in certain aspects, I still believe that OoT had the best presentation of any of them. The 3 successors all had grand cutscenes, stories and lovable characters, but OoT took the ones we already really cared for (whilst the later games added characters, OoT gave us Link/Zelda/Ganondorf) and gave it such a dramatic impact for the time that it was just so special. Aside from its leap in gameplay, there are times that Ocarina just feels timeless.
I know there are some GIFs floating around but moments include:
-Link seeing Ganondorf in front of Hyrule Castle
-Viewing Kokiri Forest as Navi flies over/through it
-Deku Tree
-Hyrule Field for the first time
-Zelda's escape, looking back at Link
-Opening the Royal Family's Tomb (especially at night!)
-Darunia's Dance (YES)
-Link escaping Lon Lon Ranch with Epona
-Escaping Ganon's Tower
-Ganon's Transformation
-Sages focusing their power
-Post-Ganon battle/Zelda taking the Ocarina back
These moments were just so well delivered, from camera angles, to actions and pacing. The players are in the moment and not playing from one cutscene to another.
I believe that Twilight Princess was intentionally going for less 'dramatized' moments in favor of keeping the mood of the present time (most noticeable IMO during Ganondorf's Horse Battle). MM emphasizes Ocarina's style, while Wind Waker changes the presentation through its visuals. While TP is still my favorite of the 3D Zeldas, OoT was just more striking in that way.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Err, what?
MisterHero
Super Member
You removed the context, I fixed it for yaAndrex said:
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Andrex said:
The assortment of the Triforces was not determined before Ocarina.
Also, Ganondorf was a pig.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
MisterHero said:
I didn't get it even with the context.
Regulus Tera said:
Ganondorf was described as a thief both in-game and in the LttP manual...
Then he should have said "the Triforces weren't assigned to anyone." And really wtf does that have to do with anything? Really small detail OoT "introduced."
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
I never said his argument was cohesive.
MisterHero
Super Member
Andrex said:
I did not say anything about Triforce pieces. AS CHARACTERS, people were already familiar with Link, Zelda and Ganon long before OoT. Thus, fans already have some attachment with them and they didn't need as much time to build them up in OoT.
I didn't say it introduced them either. It just focused on them, and OoT's dramatic presentation magnified their roles beyond what Zelda 1 or LttP could do.
Sorry if the post is badly worded.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Now that I really think about it, I always disliked how "Ganondorf" became the staple villain rather than "Ganon".
The manual of LttP had this interesting "thief" back story to what was basically an evil twisted monster... and Ocarina necessarily showed this interesting origin... but I always thought the "standard" enemy of Zelda was Ganon, the pig-like enemy of Hyrule, but they never went back to this version.....
It's like constantly focusing on Anakin Skywalker and just forgetting about Darth Vader.
I guess the "dorf" version is a more interesting and intelligent villain for the series.... I see why they do it... but it feels like the "backstory" villain of the series instead of the classic original villain. Ganon is more iconic.
The manual of LttP had this interesting "thief" back story to what was basically an evil twisted monster... and Ocarina necessarily showed this interesting origin... but I always thought the "standard" enemy of Zelda was Ganon, the pig-like enemy of Hyrule, but they never went back to this version.....
It's like constantly focusing on Anakin Skywalker and just forgetting about Darth Vader.
I guess the "dorf" version is a more interesting and intelligent villain for the series.... I see why they do it... but it feels like the "backstory" villain of the series instead of the classic original villain. Ganon is more iconic.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Aonuma is fucking awesome.
But he doesn't go far enough.
It's ugly, it runs at a hideously unpleasant frame rate, the menu interface, combat mechanics, camera scripting and camera controls have been bettered by every subsequent Zelda. The overworld is a barren field that simply consumes your time while you go from A to B. All of the 2D Zeldas have more interesting and creative overworlds. Playing it now is simply more annoying than back in '98, when admittedly it was the most awesome-sauce thing since Zelda III.
Worst of all, OoT has landed Nintendo in the position of having to adhere to a certain style in order to appease idiot manbaby editors like those at IGN and in order to maximise success. That is a counter-creative situation they find themselves in - something they're not really saddled with when it comes to any of their other franchises.
But he doesn't go far enough.
It's ugly, it runs at a hideously unpleasant frame rate, the menu interface, combat mechanics, camera scripting and camera controls have been bettered by every subsequent Zelda. The overworld is a barren field that simply consumes your time while you go from A to B. All of the 2D Zeldas have more interesting and creative overworlds. Playing it now is simply more annoying than back in '98, when admittedly it was the most awesome-sauce thing since Zelda III.
Worst of all, OoT has landed Nintendo in the position of having to adhere to a certain style in order to appease idiot manbaby editors like those at IGN and in order to maximise success. That is a counter-creative situation they find themselves in - something they're not really saddled with when it comes to any of their other franchises.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
MisterHero said:
Ah. Yeah for some reason I thought you were saying Link, Zelda, and Ganon were the only new characters in OoT and that later games just added more characters to the set. :lol I knew that couldn't be what you were meaning.
Personally, I didn't care for any of that. I felt like it was bloating up what was still essentially a simple story, which played out better in the earlier Zeldas. I thought it exposed really how trite the whole world of Zelda is. I'd rather it had been treated in a way akin to Shadow of the Colossus. Maybe its nostalgia, but I enjoyed the minimalism of the early games, not just of Zelda, but also Mario and Metroid.MisterHero said:
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
There are probably 3 posts in this entire thread I wholly agree with, and this is one of them. The best thing that could happen to Zelda and Metroid at this point is trimming the fat and focusing on a more direct experience without all the fluff. Thankfully Mario has done a pretty good job avoiding those pitfalls over the years, outside of the atrocious intro to SMS.Aaron said:
MisterHero
Super Member
In Zelda's case though, the series was always story-driven. In Zelda I-III they had big backstories for the games in the manuals. As their software/hardware capabilities grew, they naturally integrated them into the games.Aaron said:
Perhaps if not for OoT, Ueda might not have known to treat SotC in the manner that you enjoy. And while SotC is a brilliant game I do not believe it had the power to communicate its world to as many players as OoT. It had a huge open world yes and subtle gestural animation, but not the quantity depth of OoT's successors (or even OoT itself).
Of course there's room for a story and times where it isn't needed, but it's my opinion that it's one of the few games to hit a perfect mix of gameplay and story/exposition.
While I understand where you're coming from I'm also trying to understand the concerns of other fans who want more characterization and a better, unique story for each game.
Weird i was just thinking about this (LttP > OoT) today before work. For some reason i woke up humming the song to Lost Woods (i think my alarm clock sounded similar) and was like damn the music in LttP was great.
For me personally the 2D Zelda's have been better than the 3D Zelda's. The only 3D Zelda game i could actually bring myself to finish was Wind Waker and I thought that except for the final boss fight it was an amazing game. It was honestly much more fun that OoT. I got to Adult Link in OoT and got bored. I loved Majora's Mask as well but just timing didn't allow me to finish it.
I've beaten every single 2D zelda i've played and Loved them all. But i still think A Link to the Past is the best LoZ game i've played to date.
For me personally the 2D Zelda's have been better than the 3D Zelda's. The only 3D Zelda game i could actually bring myself to finish was Wind Waker and I thought that except for the final boss fight it was an amazing game. It was honestly much more fun that OoT. I got to Adult Link in OoT and got bored. I loved Majora's Mask as well but just timing didn't allow me to finish it.
I've beaten every single 2D zelda i've played and Loved them all. But i still think A Link to the Past is the best LoZ game i've played to date.