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[Cipherr]

Exactly. It is not about what happens if you find out first, it is what happens if you already have feelings for a person, then find out something.

This seems like a really good pivot point right here.

So if you find out ahead of time, and choose not to pursue the relationship, that is fine, and well within reasonable range of your personal preference.

However. Should you find out while already in the midst of a relationship that you, until that point, have been enjoying, and the revelation is a deal breaker for you, (even considering it would have been a deal breaker from the start had it been revealed) THAT is what makes you transphobic.

Is that correct?

If the hinging issue of what is transphobic and what is not is the "Why?" then I think for the sake of conversation, someone should lay out the Why?'s that are transphobic, and the Whys? that wouldn't be.

 

[akira28]

Sorry, I didn't realize the context implied in this thread was regarding a "first date".

My commentary was with regard to relationships expecting to last; not those just starting.

First date isn't the assumed implication. It's one that's been commonly stated. Just as many people have said 'before any actual intimacy'.

I mean, you're not going to expect to have her blurt it out while you're deciding on stuffed mushrooms or goddamn spinach dip. But you might expect to know before she's inviting you in, or you're inviting her up to your place for wine and everything else.


Gaborn:
The reveal that someone has African ancestry is NOT on the same level as telling someone that you were born a different sex than you currently are. Just because you corrected how you feel about yourself and your body doesn't change how others might react to the possibility of becoming romantically involved with you. It doesn't erase the past, and it doesn't give you the option to ignore it where other romantic partners are concerned. That's my opinion, and the realities depend on the people themselves. Practically, I say, for everyone involved, the sooner the better, so she will know if she's with someone who will accept her, and if not, she can move on to someone who can. And so he isn't entering into a relationship under false assumptions that he made because he didn't know and he wasn't told. If not on the first date, then before any physical intimacy, for sure.

 

[Gaborn]

I get that Ami, and it was originally my train of thought.

What they are arguing is this:

She was NEVER a man. She was a woman who unfortunately had the outward appearance of a man.

To say you don't want to be with them because they used to be a man is tantamount to calling them a man as they are today.


"Yeah sure, you are women now. Go you! But I still wouldn't date you cause I'm looking for a real woman"

I'm still wrapping my head around the argument, but its starting to make a bit more sense to me.

Think of it like this: What are you in love with, what do you want to marry?

If it's only about tits and vag for you, and it's just physical then frankly, that's pretty immature.

If it's children, and impregnating a woman, and watching her swell with your child and give birth, I understand that urge, although I doubt until you meet THAT girl you intend to suspend all your dating activity or make sure every girl you date is fertile and willing to give you children.

To me, as a gay man, I want someone to grow old with. To spend time with. Who I understand and who understands me. I want someone I care about. Yes, looks are a nice bonus but at the end of the day that's all plumbing, I trust my libido to take care of that. I think for a marriage to last it takes someone that fits with your personality and that has very little to do with the genitalia they were BORN with.

 

[Amir0x]

Think of it like this: What are you in love with, what do you want to marry?

If it's only about tits and vag for you, and it's just physical then frankly, that's pretty immature.

If it's children, and impregnating a woman, and watching her swell with your child and give birth, I understand that urge, although I doubt until you meet THAT girl you intend to suspend all your dating activity or make sure every girl you date is fertile and willing to give you children.

To me, as a gay man, I want someone to grow old with. To spend time with. Who I understand and who understands me. I want someone I care about. Yes, looks are a nice bonus but at the end of the day that's all plumbing, I trust my libido to take care of that. I think for a marriage to last it takes someone that fits with your personality and that has very little to do with the genitalia they were BORN with.

I just want to say I think it's a little funny all this understanding but everyone always has a hard time understanding people who just are interested in tits and vag and call this 'immature.'

Some people are genuinely just interested in tits and vag vs. a full intellectual relationship or someone to marry. It actually doesn't necessarily have anything to do with maturity at all >

 

[Platy]

Do I expect it on a first date no. Would I appreciate hell yeah. I have no interest in dating a transgender woman and don't feel this view is uncommon in our society. Knowing the chance of rejection is high and possibly other issues might arise I would imagine a transgender individual will be honest anyways to avoid them so I doubt this is a big issue that I need to worry about.

This is logic test that even a lab rat can answer.

If the lab rat knows that a button can hurt then....
A) this button will be the first one to be pressed
B) this button will NEVER be pressed

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. I still disagree however. You could argue all sorts of semantics on what is 100% a real woman. My definition, however, is someone born as a woman with all the accoutrements.

Can you please explain better what you define "accoutrements" so i can better counter argument you ? =D

But if you are against abortion, it means you have a problem with only transmen, since everyone in the womb starts as a woman

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wich makes me want to question :
If you suddenly got attracted to a handsome muscular man ... discovering that he is a transman would help you understand those feelings, since he "was a girl" ?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

First date isn't the assumed implication. It's one that's been commonly stated. Just as many people have said 'before any actual intimacy'.

Well now I feel manipulated. Why pull out the straw man, Gaborn? My concept of when and why to disclose this information was laid out pretty clearly in my post, yet you decided to ask me about first dates despite my commentary not saying anything about first encounters. Why?

 

[akira28]

bigoted, immature, ignorant, or transphobic. can I get an option e?

 

[cutmeamango]

It's a no win game for the pessimist outcomes.
Tell it early or tell it later, you may suffer retaliation or have to deal with your partner's disappointment and/or frustration.

So for the optimistic outcomes, I'd say they should disclose it early if interested in their (potential) partners.

And I like my vajayjays to be able to spout babies so I can live the thrill of unprotected love making.

 

[squidyj]

This is logic test that even a lab rat can answer.

If the lab rat knows that a button can hurt then....
A) this button will be the first one to be pressed
B) this button will NEVER be pressed




Can you please explain better what you define "accoutrements" so i can better counter argument you ? =D

You're missing secret option schadenfreude, where the researchers repeatedly press the button for their own amusement.

 

[Dead Man]

This seems like a really good pivot point right here.

So if you find out ahead of time, and choose not to pursue the relationship, that is fine, and well within reasonable range of your personal preference.

However. Should you find out while already in the midst of a relationship that you, until that point, have been enjoying, and the revelation is a deal breaker for you, (even considering it would have been a deal breaker from the start had it been revealed) THAT is what makes you transphobic.

Is that correct?

If the hinging issue of what is transphobic and what is not is the "Why?" then I think for the sake of conversation, someone should lay out the Why?'s that are transphobic, and the Whys? that wouldn't be.

I would say that if you loved that person yesterday, then did not the next day, for a circumstance that has no bearing on how you feel, then yes, there would be more than a suggestion of bigotry there. I can understand feelings around wanting to have children, and things like that, and I can understand that it would lead to some long discussions, but you fell in love with that individual. They are still the same person today. It's not like they went and changed something after you knew them.

You seem to be hung up on 'phobic'. I am not really addressing what constitutes phobic behaviour, just what is bigoted in the traditional sense of not wanting to be associated with members of a group for no reason other than their membership in that group. Sexual attraction is tricky, as we all admit. If you are not attracted, you are not attracted. But if you are attracted, and then let a persons membership in a group change how you feel simply because they belong to that group, that is bigotry.

If you chose not to date them in the first place because they were trans, that COULD be bigotry, but could also just be a situation of you not being sexually attracted to them. It's a fine line, I will admit, but I think there is a difference.

 

[Gaborn]

I just want to say I think it's a little funny all this understanding but everyone always has a hard time understanding people who just are interested in tits and vag and call this 'immature.'

Some people are genuinely just interested in tits and vag vs. a full intellectual relationship or someone to marry. It actually doesn't necessarily have anything to do with maturity at all >

oh I know, but I was really responding to the previous post by kinggroin where he said:

I asked my father the question you're posing Gaborn. He says that after 15 years, if it was revealed to him, he'd be hurt. He wouldn't leave however.

He says, "I fell in love with June the woman, not the man. She's still June the woman"

Not the response I expected, considering he's a devout Christian, and can make some pretty off-color remarks concerning certain groups of people.

I always thought I was the liberal, more open minded one in the family and here I am, saying I might ditch after the reveal. I have a lot to think about.

and I was more riffing off of that. I think his father gave the only rational response - you don't love the woman (or the man as in my case) you love the PERSON. the individual that you fall in love with. And the point is to ask yourself what you love about them.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

But most of the people in this thread are not merely choosing not to date a transperson. They're saying they would immediately end the relationship on finding out the person was trans. I keep using the analogy of a person that immediately breaks up with someone because they find out they're half black. It's fine if you think you have a particular type of person you're attracted to but BEING attracted to someone and then completely breaking up with them over a particular status like that is respectively transphobic or racist.

What if it's just not your cup of tea? Is it all of a sudden wrong to discriminate between born and bred and manufactured? Because technically, that's what it is. Not in the abstract, not in the intellectual, not in the emotional/psychological, not in the collective, not in the theoretical, not in the ideological but the brass distinction is between man made and natural, physically speaking. I'm not saying that distinction is right or wrong to place value on, but you can't rationalize and double talk your way out of how most people if put in a situation would emotionally feel. The recoil in most of the public's mind concerning transgender people is born out of instinct, collectively sexually undesired if you will for the most part. So it's not rational to suggest or go one further and expect a moral blanket for people not to feel uncomfortable with the idea. Not saying it's a fair deal but it's a reality, and I don't think implying that because you feel value shouldn't be placed here, others don't have the right to plurality of opinion, and respected the same.

And in this analogy, you're ignoring an entire web of intangibles and little details that create the social dynamics of relationships, sexual tastes and feelings on personal back story knowledge. Because I can sit here and list off opposing analogies with the best of them. But I prefer to let everyone choose what their cup of tea is and leave it at that. I'm not saying you're fundamentally wrong, you just don't seem to be placing equal value or considering alt opinions.

 

[Cipherr]

bigoted, immature, ignorant, or transphobic. can I get an option e?

Thats sort of the funny thing watching this thread. People are seemingly willing to say that there is an option E. That it is possible to prefer not to date a transgendered person and not be any of the offensive things listed above, but any situation presented, each and every one gets immediately detailed as one of those very offensive things.

Why not just put it on the table. In what way can a person not desire to date a transgendered person and not be a bigoted transphobic? Is it even possible?

And if its not, why not just say that?

 

[smr00]

can you explain where the deception comes in? Exactly what lie is there there?

Can you explain how it isn't? i feel that i have a right to know if i am having intercourse with you, it is implied you are a normal female unless otherwise stated and i understand saying "normal" is harsh, but that is what is perceived as normal.

I have NOTHING against transgender people, i won't sit here and say i would be disgusted because i wouldn't, if the person is up front about it from day 1 i would give them a chance just like everyone else but if you hide that fact for weeks, months, possible years and never tell me? no, that's bullshit. I would have 0 problems dating a transgender, just be upfront about it. Otherwise you are most defiantly deceiving me and i want nothing to do with someone who would hide something like that, i don't have time for people like that in my life.

 

[Dead Man]

Thats sort of the funny thing watching this thread. People are seemingly willing to say that there is an option E. That it is possible to prefer not to date a transgendered person and not be any of the offensive things listed above, but any situation presented, each and every one gets immediately detailed as one of those very offensive things.

Why not just put it on the table. In what way can a person not desire to date a transgendered person and not be a bigoted transphobic? Is it even possible?

And if its not, why not just say that?

You must not have read my reply to your post....

 

[JasonUresti]

Thats sort of the funny thing watching this thread. People are seemingly willing to say that there is an option E. That it is possible to prefer not to date a transgendered person and not be any of the offensive things listed above, but any situation presented, each and every one gets immediately detailed as one of those very offensive things.

Why not just put it on the table. In what way can a person not desire to date a transgendered person and not be a bigoted transphobic? Is it even possible?

And if its not, why not just say that?

I just wish they would learn what bigot actually means.

 

[Dead Man]

I just wish they would learn what bigot actually means.

You could enlighten us...

 

[Cipherr]

You must not have read my reply to your post....

I am actually very interested in the, answer, so to speak to this in particular

Why not just put it on the table. In what way can a person not desire to date a transgendered person and not be a bigoted transphobic? Is it even possible?

And if its not, why not just say that?

If I missed your response to that, if you could kindly reiterate.

 

[Dead Man]

I am actually very interested in the, answer, so to speak to this in particular




If I missed your response to that, if you could kindly reiterate.

I would say that if you loved that person yesterday, then did not the next day, for a circumstance that has no bearing on how you feel, then yes, there would be more than a suggestion of bigotry there. I can understand feelings around wanting to have children, and things like that, and I can understand that it would lead to some long discussions, but you fell in love with that individual. They are still the same person today. It's not like they went and changed something after you knew them.

You seem to be hung up on 'phobic'. I am not really addressing what constitutes phobic behaviour, just what is bigoted in the traditional sense of not wanting to be associated with members of a group for no reason other than their membership in that group. Sexual attraction is tricky, as we all admit. If you are not attracted, you are not attracted. But if you are attracted, and then let a persons membership in a group change how you feel simply because they belong to that group, that is bigotry.

If you chose not to date them in the first place because they were trans, that COULD be bigotry, but could also just be a situation of you not being sexually attracted to them. It's a fine line, I will admit, but I think there is a difference.

.

 

[Amir0x]

oh I know, but I was really responding to the previous post by kinggroin where he said:




and I was more riffing off of that. I think his father gave the only rational response - you don't love the woman (or the man as in my case) you love the PERSON. the individual that you fall in love with. And the point is to ask yourself what you love about them.

It is fair to suggest that if you fell in love with a PERSON without complete knowledge of important aspects of that PERSONs life, you may indeed have a different outlook on that PERSON.

That's why this subject is so complicated. Yes, I might have liked or even been attracted to that person before. After finding this information, I might afterwards not be attracted to them. It's for me to decide. I have to consent to the full person with all its warts or lovely rainbows.

God, the closest I can think of to relate is how I may have been attracted to someone I was dating, then I find something out about them, and it turns me off. Why does it turn me off? I can't really control why I get sexually attracted to something, and then later don't when I find out another something. But I can tell you it has happened with relationships I've been in with people who aren't transgendered: I might like that person and then she changes something or she reveals something and that's it. At the very least, I have to re-evaluate and my answer about the relationship may NOT be the same afterwards.

In the case of the transgendered individual, that switch would only be sexual: I wouldn't want intimacy. I really do turn off just like that. I would want to maintain a friendly relationship with the person, but respect if that individual would find it difficult to be in that place afterwards.

It's a very complex issue.

If you think it's wrong a person should react this way, and that makes them transphobic, it's difficult to understand why you want to be with that person anyway. You apparently think they fear something fundamental about your life story; is pretending that person not having concerns about this going to change the fact that they really do?

Like I said, if not dishonest with your mate, it's certainly dishonest to yourself

 

[Gaborn]

What if it's just not your cup of tea? Is it all of a sudden wrong to discriminate between born and bred and manufactured?

It certainly is wrong to become a snob AFTER the fact. to say that you prefer dating non-trans women and then find out you're already dating a trans woman? Yes. Because you just proved otherwise.

Because technically, that's what it is. Not in the abstract, not in the intellectual, not in the emotional/psychological, not in the collective, not in the theoretical, not in the ideological but the brass distinction is between man made and natural, physically speaking. I'm not saying that distinction is right or wrong to place value on, but you can't rationalize and double talk your way out of how most people if put in a situation would emotionally feel. The recoil in most of the public's mind concerning transgender people is born out of instinct, collectively sexually undesired if you will for the most part. So it's not rational to suggest or go one further and expect a moral blanket for people not to feel uncomfortable with the idea. Not saying it's a fair deal but it's a reality, and I don't think implying that because you feel value shouldn't be placed here, others don't have the right to plurality of opinion, and respected the same.

And in this analogy, you're ignoring an entire web of intangibles and little details that create the social dynamics of relationships, sexual tastes and feelings on personal back story knowledge. Because I can sit here and list off opposing analogies with the best of them. But I prefer to let everyone choose what their cup of tea is and leave it at that. I'm not saying you're fundamentally wrong, you just don't seem to be placing equal value or considering alt opinions.

Look, you keep talking about "man made vs natural" but what you're ignoring is the issue is if you're already dating someone and have enjoyed their company... what's the problem? If you say you generally like a natural product but you find a particular man made product you love are you going to chuck it just on principle even if the natural product is inferior?

 

[LCGeek]

Can you explain how it isn't? i feel that i have a right to know if i am having intercourse with you, it is implied you are a normal female unless otherwise stated and i understand saying "normal" is harsh, but that is what is perceived as normal.

I have NOTHING against transgender people, i won't sit here and say i would be disgusted because i wouldn't, if the person is up front about it from day 1 i would give them a chance just like everyone else but if you hide that fact for weeks, months, possible years and never tell me? no, that's bullshit.

Normal is a bullshit word used by a small and relatively new branch of a species on one of the smallest rocks in the galaxy. Lets not forget our context in the larger scope of things.

No one is saying that if that happened to you that wouldn't be fair. People are missing the point that most here wouldn't engage a tg because they wouldn't get that far. If you get that far and then use it against them or are just the blind I don't think despite a intense reaction you can really hold it against the tg person you feel tricked you. If this is your reasoning never pretend to be intellect here you can't be intelligent and bullshit me on this. We are good but we aren't houdini or for that matter hollywood or porn industry which tricks you far more often under the guise of being a real woman.

 

[lexi]

Ok, I've calmed down a bit now, taken the blinders off and had a drink of water. Let's clarify some things.

99% of men in this thread have said they would never date a transperson. Nevermind the fact that I would contest this, for the question is based on a hypothetical insta-question. Easy answer is no. I'm dating a straight guy right now that if you asked him a year or so ago the same question, you better believe he'd say 'Fuck no'. Things change when it's not hypothetical.

However, I would like a concensus on the question I'm about to ask. You don't want to date a transwomen, that's fine, however, do you think a heterosexual guy that does date a transwomen is gay?

 

[Cipherr]

.

So basically

So if you find out ahead of time, and choose not to pursue the relationship, that is fine, and well within reasonable range of your personal preference.

However. Should you find out while already in the midst of a relationship that you, until that point, have been enjoying, and the revelation is a deal breaker for you, (even considering it would have been a deal breaker from the start had it been revealed) THAT is what makes you transphobic.

Am I reading you right? Outside of the above the only exception made is if you desire to have children. I mean, your use of love blurs that a bit. I still love my ex-wife, I have no desire to be in a relationship with her however. And I have issues with all of this hinging on attraction as well, as mentioned below, even minor things can drastically change attraction. It is not something that is a constant and never changing.

 

[squidyj]

Ok, I've calmed down a bit now, taken the blinders off and had a drink of water. Let's clarify some things.

99% of men in this thread have said they would never date a transperson. Nevermind the fact that I would contest this, for the question is based on a hypothetical insta-question. Easy answer is no. I'm dating a straight guy right now that if you asked him a year or so ago the same question, you better believe he'd say 'Fuck no'. Things change when it's not hypothetical.

However, I would like a concensus on the question I'm about to ask. You don't want to date a transwomen, that's fine, however, do you think a heterosexual guy that does date a transwomen is gay?

I think 99% might be a little bit high.

As to your question, fuck no.

 

[Garbaga]

I would say that if you loved that person yesterday, then did not the next day, for a circumstance that has no bearing on how you feel, then yes, there would be more than a suggestion of bigotry there. I can understand feelings around wanting to have children, and things like that, and I can understand that it would lead to some long discussions, but you fell in love with that individual. They are still the same person today. It's not like they went and changed something after you knew them.

You seem to be hung up on 'phobic'. I am not really addressing what constitutes phobic behaviour, just what is bigoted in the traditional sense of not wanting to be associated with members of a group for no reason other than their membership in that group. Sexual attraction is tricky, as we all admit. If you are not attracted, you are not attracted. But if you are attracted, and then let a persons membership in a group change how you feel simply because they belong to that group, that is bigotry.

If you chose not to date them in the first place because they were trans, that COULD be bigotry, but could also just be a situation of you not being sexually attracted to them. It's a fine line, I will admit, but I think there is a difference.

No, attraction is fluid; constantly moving, shifting and adapting.

Once you have an attraction to someone, that attraction can be completely qulled by even the smallest of factors; such as said person being born a male.

 

[Amir0x]

You don't want to date a transwomen, that's fine, however, do you think a heterosexual guy that does date a transwomen is gay?

Absolutely not.

 

[kinggroin]

In the case of the transgendered individual, that switch would only be sexual: I wouldn't want intimacy

Really, that's the sticking point for me as well.

If I can't move on past the idea when it comes to being intimate after the fact, I'm not sure the relationship or marriage would last. For me, sex is just that important.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

You don't want to date a transwomen, that's fine, however, do you think a heterosexual guy that does date a transwomen is gay?

No.

 

[goldenpp72]

Not saying you're formerly a man is like not saying you have herpes, you might think its ethical to spread them but the other should know full well what they're in for. Just because you feel It's fine doesnt mean the other does, and if you feel they won't mind why not say? if they would mind, why fuck them over? its fucked up to not say.

 

[Garbaga]

Ok, I've calmed down a bit now, taken the blinders off and had a drink of water. Let's clarify some things.

99% of men in this thread have said they would never date a transperson. Nevermind the fact that I would contest this, for the question is based on a hypothetical insta-question. Easy answer is no. I'm dating a straight guy right now that if you asked him a year or so ago the same question, you better believe he'd say 'Fuck no'. Things change when it's not hypothetical.

However, I would like a concensus on the question I'm about to ask. You don't want to date a transwomen, that's fine, however, do you think a heterosexual guy that does date a transwomen is gay?

Nope.

 

[Dead Man]

So basically



Am I reading you right? Outside of the above the only exception made is if you desire to have children. I mean, your use of love blurs that a bit. I still love my ex-wife, I have no desire to be in a relationship with her however.

No, attraction is fluid; constantly moving, shifting and adapting.

Once you have an attraction to someone, that attraction can be completely qulled by even the smallest of factors; such as said person being born a male.

I am wasting my time since I can't seem to communicate what I mean to people like you guys. Fair enough.

I'll be taking a rest, I'll try again later I guess.

Not saying you're formerly a man is like not saying you have herpes, you might think its ethical to spread them but the other should know full well what they're in for. Just because you feel It's fine doesnt mean the other does, and if you feel they won't mind why not say? if they would mind, why fuck them over? its fucked up to not say.

Although now you can catch teh trans. I'll have to look out for that, lest a chop off my dick in a fit of femininity.

 

[squidyj]

Not saying you're formerly a man is like not saying you have herpes, you might think its ethical to spread them but the other should know full well what they're in for. Just because you feel It's fine doesnt mean the other does, and if you feel they won't mind why not say? if they would mind, why fuck them over? its fucked up to not say.

Wait... are you saying being trans is a contagious disease?

I have to be honest I'm pretty gleeful when people attempt analogies in this thread, they're always so obviously bad.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I would say that if you loved that person yesterday, then did not the next day, for a circumstance that has no bearing on how you feel, then yes, there would be more than a suggestion of bigotry there. I can understand feelings around wanting to have children, and things like that, and I can understand that it would lead to some long discussions, but you fell in love with that individual. They are still the same person today. It's not like they went and changed something after you knew them.

Well... some people might have a different idea about circumstance that has or has not any bearing to how they would feel.

~Snip~

"99%?"

As to your question, of course not.

 

[Amir0x]

god comparing being transgendered to herpes is just about the worst analogy ever and is the least productive direction for conversation I can think of right now in this sensitive topic

 

[Yaboosh]

Not saying you're formerly a man is like not saying you have herpes, you might think its ethical to spread them but the other should know full well what they're in for. Just because you feel It's fine doesnt mean the other does, and if you feel they won't mind why not say? if they would mind, why fuck them over? its fucked up to not say.

Well, this thread lasted a while...

 

[Garbaga]

I am wasting my time since I can't seem to communicate what I mean to people like you guys. Fair enough.

I'll be taking a rest, I'll try again later I guess.

I haven't been following, what are you trying to say?

 

[Cipherr]

I am wasting my time since I can't seem to communicate what I mean to people like you guys. Fair enough.

I'll be taking a rest, I'll try again later I guess.

I don't really think thats fair, the tone of the thread is actually very smooth right now. Noone is attacking anyone, I hope you arent taking it that way its just a genuine question of clarity here.

But you did the 'people like you guys' thing so I just want to clarify. I'm not having a go at you. It is a sincere desire for clarification here.

 

[smr00]

Normal is a bullshit word used by a small and relatively new branch of a species on one of the smallest rocks in the galaxy. Lets not forget our context in the larger scope of things.

No one is saying that if that happened to you that wouldn't be fair. People are missing the point that most here wouldn't engage a tg because they wouldn't get that far. If you get that far and then use it against them or are just the blind I don't think despite a intense reaction you can really hold it against the tg person you feel tricked you. If this is your reasoning never pretend to be intellect here you can't be intelligent and bullshit me on this. We are good but we aren't houdini or for that matter hollywood or porn industry which tricks you far more often under the guise of being a real woman.

Clearly you didn't read what i said.

I said that if they are UPFRONT i will give them the same chance as i would anyone else, i have no problem dating one, but if you let it go on for months/years and then i find out i will dump you, not because you are TG but because i consider that deceiving me, if you can't be upfront with me about who you are then i don't have time in my life to deal with you, i don't give a shit what anyone else says about my reasoning or what you think, i don't have time to play fucking games with people.

But if you bothered to read my post saying i have no problem you would understand this, i would gladly date a TG if they were upfront with me from the get go, OR if they tell me before things get serious, if things get serious and you don't tell me i take that as deception, i take that as what else are you hiding from me? like i said i don't have time to play fucking games, unlike most men i don't care if you are TG just be upfront about it.

 

[Cipherr]

I haven't been following, what are you trying to say?

We were basically asking him, in what ways can a person have the preference of not dating a transgendered person and NOT be a bigot, transphobe etc, assuming such a thing is possible. Its a pretty important question considering the way the topic has gone.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

It certainly is wrong to become a snob AFTER the fact. to say that you prefer dating non-trans women and then find out you're already dating a trans woman? Yes. Because you just proved otherwise.

For me personally, like I said I probably wouldn't break up with my fiance over something like that. But in general, for most people, I think there's two glaring issues here. One is upfront trust, the other is a far more subjective but equally important issue of emotional discomfort. Say what you want, but a lot of people wouldn't feel very good about finding out about a post op after the fact, or during...

So that analogy really doesn't touch most people's reality.

Look, you keep talking about "man made vs natural" but what you're ignoring is the issue is if you're already dating someone and have enjoyed their company... what's the problem? If you say you generally like a natural product but you find a particular man made product you love are you going to chuck it just on principle even if the natural product is inferior?

If you've dated someone and enjoyed their company, and later find out before any sexual interaction, fine there's no problem. But from my experience any intimate interaction usually needs to be qualified if there's a pre/post op involved. People have been killed before so it's probably a wise choice on both sides.

But there's a big difference between sexual interest and other interests. It's sort of a red herring isn't it? There is an entire division in "principle" when it comes to our bodies and our sexual habits as opposed to foods/interests/entertainment/material goods.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

my head hurts

 

[Dead Man]

I don't really think thats fair, the tone of the thread is actually very smooth right now. Noone is attacking anyone, I hope you arent taking it that way its just a genuine question of clarity here.

But you did the 'people like you guys' thing so I just want to clarify. I'm not having a go at you. It is a sincere desire for clarification here.

No attack, and the thread is fine right now, but my brain is exhausted. 'People like you' just meant people with the view you have, sorry if it offended.

 

[smr00]

god comparing being transgendered to herpes is just about the worst analogy ever and is the least productive direction for conversation I can think of right now in this sensitive topic

But both are still considered of being deceived.

I don't care how anyone else puts it or if someone is a "bigot" or hates TG the fact remains you should be told upfront, like i said and i will say it one last time i have no problem with TG, just be upfront about it.

 

[lexi]

Nope.

No.

Absolutely not.

Maybe you can see my whole point to participating in this thread. In 2008 on GAF, the answer would be a resounding yes. I still have a suspicion that one or more of you are lying to appease me, but if in 4 years people now accept that transwomen are women, then mission accomplished, bring the troops home, we won!

 

[LCGeek]

Clearly you are fucking blind.

I said that if they are UPFRONT i will give them the same chance as i would anyone else, i have no problem dating one, but if you let it go on for months/years and then i find out i will dump you, not because you are TG but because i consider that deceiving me, if you can't be upfront with me about who you are then i don't have time in my life to deal with you, i don't give a shit what anyone else says about my reasoning or what you think, i don't have time to play fucking games with people.

But if you bothered to read my post saying i have no problem you would understand this, i would gladly date a TG if they were upfront with me from the get go, OR if they tell me before things get serious, if things get serious and you don't tell me i take that as deception, i take that as what else are you hiding from me? like i said i don't have time to play fucking games, unlike most men i don't care if you are TG just be upfront about it.

You're playing semantic and saying I'm blind when the premise has been clear. Also my point was agreeing with way to bold something me and you both said and aren't in debate on. Please check previous posts before your own as proof so way to get in a rage about something I've already stated I have no beef with.

My main contention was with the usage of the word normal. Same for assertion that your being deceived if it gets that far and you somehow don't notice. You're kidding me that if by the time intimacy happens it's soley a tgs person fault. No one tg is going to be able to fool for more than a few days, one visit to their residence and the sight how of how they live would give you signals. I could care less what you do I care about the fake sense of anger you feel you're entitled too.

 

[Yaboosh]

Maybe you can see my whole point to participating in this thread. In 2008 on GAF, the answer would be a resounding yes.

If in 4 years people now accept that transwomen are women, then mission accomplished, bring the troops home, we won!

Do you consider there to be any differences at all between a transwoman and a ciswoman?

 

[Garbaga]

Maybe you can see my whole point to participating in this thread. In 2008 on GAF, the answer would be a resounding yes.

If in 4 years people now accept that transwomen are women, then mission accomplished, bring the troops home, we won!

Are you implying we're lying, or that the majority of GAF is still transphobic?

 

[Glorified G]

Maybe you can see my whole point to participating in this thread. In 2008 on GAF, the answer would be a resounding yes. I still have a suspicion that one or more of you are lying to appease me, but if in 4 years people now accept that transwomen are women, then mission accomplished, bring the troops home, we won!

Wait, those three all represent gaf? Is that what you did in 2008? Take a select group and brand the whole forum as bigots? You sure like to paint a broad brush.

 

[lexi]

Wait, those three all represent gaf? Is that what you did in 2008? Take a select group and brand the whole forum as bigots? You sure like to paint a broad brush.

Looks like I've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Maybe in another 4 years.

Are you implying we're lying, or that the majority of GAF is still transphobic?

Hillariously, I was being serious. My main point of contention in this entire thread was that people didn't want to date transwomen because they consider them men.

If this isn't the case, and there's some other reasons at play for why 99% of straight men would never consider dating a transwoman, then I have no bone in this fight.