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[Gaborn]

Because the issue I presented is Transphobia. The topics that phobias bring up are things like Anxiety and Impairment, you arent bringing those up, you are offshooting it into something altogether. You would have a point if I was questioning whether or not their points of view were reasonable or not, or whether or not they were over reacting, or whether or not they were being unfair, or whether or not their expectations were ridiculous, but thats not what I said.

I said they were unfairly called transphobic, and many of them were.

And this is where you show an agenda. Transphobia is like homophobia. It's another way of talking about an irrational dislike of transgender people. it's not a phobia in the sense of a fear of heights or flying or whatever.

 

[Simplet]

This particular argument is completely won for Cipherr. Let's all admit it and move on. The only way to argue his point would be to do it in bad faith and that's hurting the rest of the discussion everyone might still want to have.

 

[Laughing Banana]

"Obligated" is such a strong word.

Though if it were me, I would certainly appreciate if the other party would be open about it.

Although honestly, I am not sure what would my reaction be when a person I'm dating/in a relationship with suddenly reveal that kind of information.

 

[Cipherr]

And this is where you show an agenda. Transphobia is like homophobia. It's another way of talking about an irrational dislike of transgender people. it's not a phobia in the sense of a fear of heights or flying or whatever.

And this is where we finally bring this to a conclusion. I was literally baiting you on that.

Transphobia (or less commonly cissexism, transprejudice, and trans-misogyny, referring to transphobia directed toward trans women, or trans-misandry, referring to transphobia directed toward trans men) is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards transsexualism and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity

Care to return to the original post I quoted, go through each one, and prove what you see in red please? Don't worry, Ill wait. Remember, just because someone prefers not to date a transgendered individual personally does not mean they are transphobic. Take special note of the definition, especially the part that follows "based on".

Now you get to show us all where that line is, and where each of those people crossed from personal preference to transphobia.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

So if you find out that they are trans and break up with them are you transphobic?

 

[Cipherr]

So if you find out that hey are trans and break up with them are you transphobic?

Thats exactly what we are about to find out. And I literally cannot wait.

 

[lexi]

And this is where we finally bring this to a conclusion. I was literally baiting you on that.



Care to return to the original post I quoted, go through each one, and prove what you see in red please? Don't worry, Ill wait. Remember, just because someone prefers not to date a transgendered individual personally does not mean they are transphobic.

Now you get to show us all where that line is, and where each of those people crossed from personal preference to transphobia.

I pointed out earlier, which seems to have mostly been ignored, but there was a very similar thread in 2008, where moderation was, shall we say, much looser toward transgender stuff. You can see the same people in 2008 say 'FUCK NO TRANS WOMEN ARE DISGUSTING AND THEY'RE STILL DUDES' in 2012 say 'I prefer not to date transwomen'

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

 

[Cipherr]

You can see the same people in 2008 say 'FUCK NO TRANS WOMEN ARE DISGUSTING AND THEY'RE STILL DUDES' in 2012 say 'I prefer not to date transwomen'

Go get the post links for each person then, dont worry, if they are douchebags, Ive got no problem with ceding that, but based off of the information I have here in this thread in those quotes, there is not enough data to conclude that for all of them.

 

[kinggroin]

Thats exactly what we are about to find out. And I literally cannot wait.

Shit, me too. No one answered my hypothetical a few posts up.

 

[Platy]

So if you find out that they are trans and break up with them are you transphobic?

If you break up because she is infertile : no
If you break up because after years on a relationship she still didn't trust you with telling about their past : no
If you break up because deep down you believe that they are really man : yes

It is like i said before.... if you believe that "deep down a black person is a monkey" than you are a racist no matter how good you treat black people.
And yes, there are LOTS of papers on racism and black slavery made in the time that it was normal to defend it that points that blacks are closer to monkeys than humans....
It was normal by then ... people could not control their prejudice =P

On a related note, my country has a law being voted to make different bathroms for transgender people.....

Honestly, having gone through all of this thread earlier today for modding purposes, I found it pretty hard to judge what is and isn't allowed. You want to get rid of the bigots, but on the other hand, you don't want to get the ones who legitimately just don't know/understand and say dumb shit because of that.

How about a timed pinned topic about the gaf polices on that ?
Explaining everything everyone must know and stuffs like that .... would be educational and will help to make the next baning more black and white and less grey

Telling then on the faq that "gaf has a huge gay and trans community so be polite" seens to not working very well =P

So let me get this straight.

She does NOT disclose that information to someone because, well, that's an admittance so to speak of not being a woman in every sense of the word.

No, people do not want to disclose traumatic and hated moments of their lifes .... she does not disclose that information because she HATES that time.
I know some people that barely recognize their past selfs in older pics and actualy destroy then for no memory of that time =P

If the information ISN'T disclosed and I discover while getting down and dirty, and have an adverse reaction that may or may not lead to a breakup.... I'm transphobic?

This sentence is not exactly explained ... is your adverse reaction because she had a bad surgery or because she said ?

If is the first, no ... completly normal, unless you live in a world where all vaginas must look the same, then you have some small version of the "sharp kness" disease

If she has a good surgery and you discover in any other way (like she says) ...there is a huge chance on being transphobic, since it would prove that in your brain, you think that transgirls = cismales (using the cis with non trans people since that gaffer questioned the use of "trans")
She was NEVER a male, because that would mean that her brain changed.

And if you believe that being XY means "male" on biology ... you don't know ANYTHING about biology.
...seriously ... i will give you the pleasure of googling how the sex diferentiation of a platypus works ... mostly because if i wrote it here people would not believe me ! Yes, it makes being a mammal with poison and lay eggs being completly normal =P

So in essence, its wrong to NOT want to be with someone based on their previous identity? Serious question.

Yes, unless she was a serial killer that escaped prision or something extreme on that sense

If a girl used to love Hello Kitty and now hates it ... why base your feelings on her that she is a Hello Kitty lover ?

And if I AM transphobic, what do I do to fix that?

A good start would be being a better human being xD
Reading wikipedia links (books are better, but who am i kidding ? =P) about transgender, queer theory, gender theory and sex diferences are a good place to start
If you want to get more advance, texts by transfeminists are also awesome. I would recomend to start with these 4 essays by Julia Serano (wich is trans herself, if you want to know =P), specialy the second one, that explains why the media is doing a VERY bad job with transgirls

 

[Sibylus]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd assume Dark Octave was banned for stating that calling transwomen women was insulting to women. (Oddly, none of the women in this thread seem to agree with him.) Not sure about agrajag or anyone else.

Not a mod tho so I couldn't say for sure.

Stating his genetic argument, ignoring important objections without comment, and then simply restating his genetic argument, that may have also been a contributory factor. Doing such raises questions about if certain parties are approaching the topic in bad faith. One would think that that's a strike against anyone in any heated topic.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

So if you find out that they are trans and break up with them are you transphobic?

Now that I think about it, if I found out today that my fiance of 6 years (7 in a few months, married in April) was a man at some point, I don't think I would break up with her. I'd be shocked and shook up for a few days, but I really do think it depends on how you feel about that person. But of course I'm saying this with full knowledge she was never a man.

 

[LCGeek]

And this is where we finally bring this to a conclusion. I was literally baiting you on that.



Care to return to the original post I quoted, go through each one, and prove what you see in red please? Don't worry, Ill wait. Remember, just because someone prefers not to date a transgendered individual personally does not mean they are transphobic.

Now you get to show us all where that line is, and where each of those people crossed from personal preference to transphobia.

Proving that comments made in such tones are transphobic isn't up to anyone in particular either you see the tone of them or you don't. Only a few of the quotes I felt were justified and rational but the semantics and language placed especially with the word real just reeks of typical bs I see from those saying stuff like that.

If it's just a preference than one shouldn't be on a much deeper level of disdain for transgender saying they aren't real women. There is difference between preference and outright dismissal of another.

 

[kinggroin]

If it's just a preference than one shouldn't be on a much deeper level of disdain for transgender saying they aren't real women. There is difference between preference and outright dismissal of another.

...so I'm NOT transphobic!

(maybe a little confused...)

*phew*

 

[Simplet]

I pointed out earlier, which seems to have mostly been ignored, but there was a very similar thread in 2008, where moderation was, shall we say, much looser toward transgender stuff. You can see the same people in 2008 say 'FUCK NO TRANS WOMEN ARE DISGUSTING AND THEY'RE STILL DUDES' in 2012 say 'I prefer not to date transwomen'

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

Hum. Looks like we have our response. Not dating transwomen is transphobia.

 

[Cipherr]

Proving that comments made in such tones are transphobic isn't up to anyone in particular either you see the tone of them or you don't.

Sounds very subjective to me because of that.

Only a few of the quotes I felt were justified and rational

I have literally been arguing for a page strictly because of the bolded. And I cannot agree more. Some of those quotes definitely have the feeling of Transphobia, but..... not all of them. And that bothered me, alot.

If it's just a preference than one shouldn't be on a much deeper level of disdain for transgender saying they aren't real women. There is difference between preference and outright dismissal of another.

Agreed.

 

[Emitan]

Hum. Looks like we have our response. Not dating transwomen is transphobia.

What you quoted is 4 sentences long. You really missed the point in 4 sentences? Did you even read it?

 

[Gaborn]

And this is where we finally bring this to a conclusion. I was literally baiting you on that.



Care to return to the original post I quoted, go through each one, and prove what you see in red please? Don't worry, Ill wait. Remember, just because someone prefers not to date a transgendered individual personally does not mean they are transphobic. Take special note of the definition, especially the part that follows "based on".

Now you get to show us all where that line is, and where each of those people crossed from personal preference to transphobia.

Yeah, as I said, I have no interest in trolls who aren't arguing in good faith.

 

[LCGeek]

Sounds very subjective to me because of that.

Not arguing against it. Just when people start saying your comments are transphobic there shouldn't be a debate about how they interpreting said comments. Obviously I can't avoid the subjecting considering who and what I am, but if I was on the other side of the fence I would avoid anything that would implicate me as that if I didn't want to be pegged that way. Some people know what side of the fence they are on and should expect that others here will call them on it.

Let most people talk on the subject more than a few sentences and it's telling who is just ignorant and who is letting bs emotions or knowledge of tg people guide how they see the issue.

 

[Cipherr]

Yeah, as I said, I have no interest in trolls who aren't arguing in good faith.

Oh don't worry, considering the position that post put you in, I wasn't expecting anything of value anyway, my baiting towards the definition of the word was in good faith, it was the only that could bring the discussion to a consensus, no strawmen, not topic offshoots, just getting to the core of it. Nevermind though, LCG put my OCD to ease.

 

[squidyj]

What you quoted is 4 sentences long. You really missed the point in 4 sentences? Did you even read it?

I read it and I don't see how that conclusion is unfair to Lexi's post, but let's summarize.

1. There are people who in 2008 made strongly transphobic statements that in 2012 state that they would not date trans.
2. These people are therein representative of everyone who would not date trans

Thus it follows that anyone who would not date trans is transphobic.

 

[Gaborn]

Oh don't worry, considering the position that post put you in, I wasn't expecting anything of value anyway, my baiting towards the definition of the word was in good faith, it was the only that could bring the discussion to a consensus, no strawmen, not topic offshoots, just getting to the core of it. Nevermind though, LCG put my OCD to ease.

my my my, you are an arrogant one, aren't you. Nice dodging, you're a pretty epic troll I must admit.

 

[Dead Man]

Wow, thread exploded again.

what you described were the processes of divulging an inflammatory opinion, as in, insulting.
you never said anything that was an opinion. Unless you think its possible for anyone to actually believe that all Muslims are terrorists.

You think there are NO people that think all Muslims are terrorists? Your faith is admirable.

Yeah there's been some insensitive remarks in here for sure (albeit sparingly imo), but on the flip side - there's other posters in here acting completely over-dramatic. Claiming that their pursuit of happiness is in jeopardy. Over a message board. On the internet.

Just boggles my mind.

Seems there's a growing trend on GAF in recent years that if enough of the same crowd (or particular posters) complain enough, or become outraged and offended - people get banned. Often times for just expressing a non-malicious opinion (Example: Poster ITT stated he doesn't feel that trans-Women are the same as a biologically born Woman). To me that's an opinion. You may not agree with it, but it's his opinion and it's not overtly offensive.

It's not a democracy though, so you're right - the intolerance certainly exist (fair or not).

Back to the thread at hand - I feel as though if a trans person doesn't reveal that information up front, it's quite disingenuous and shows a lack of respect for themselves and their potential partner.

Who decides what should be offensive? Should it be the people addressed, or some other uninterested third party. Would you presume to tell another group to be less offended? Opinions can be offensive, and can be hurtful. Why do you think 'opinions' are sacred and above being reproached?

If transwomen/men are expected to disclose that info on the very first date, then what else is expected? Gotta admit if the carpet match the drapes? Gotta disclose dick size? Piercings? STDs?

Damn it, I knew disclosing my inadequacies in the trousers had been my undoing, I was jutst trying to be honest!

Hum. Looks like we have our response. Not dating transwomen is transphobia.

No. The same posters rephrasing their feelings in more tolerated language is still transphobia.


Off topic: Stupid FF spell checker doesn't even recognise transphobia.

 

[lexi]

Ok, I think I got it, I can think gay people are disgusting and it's my preference to choose not to associate with them, yet this does not make me homophobic.

 

[Dead Man]

Oh don't worry, considering the position that post put you in, I wasn't expecting anything of value anyway, my baiting towards the definition of the word was in good faith, it was the only that could bring the discussion to a consensus, no strawmen, not topic offshoots, just getting to the core of it. Nevermind though, LCG put my OCD to ease.

Wow, aren't you a snide little person. Admitting to baiting and saying you expected nothing of value from another poster? Classy.

 

[Arment]

I would personally never date a transgender individual knowingly. They might think of themselves as a woman, and I think they certainly should do so. But I can't put vanilla pudding into my mouth and trick myself into thinking it's chocolate pudding. Once I have that knowledge, I am just not sexually or romantically into that person.

I don't think that's wrong. It doesn't make me transphobic. Just like not being into dudes sexually doesn't make me homophobic. It's all about the reasons for your preference. Mine are just chemical. Doesn't mean we can't be friends.

I haven't been following this thread much, but I noticed the argument is over definitions. With this understanding I would hope I wouldn't be construed as transphobic.

 

[Simplet]

No. The same posters rephrasing their feelings in more tolerated language is still transphobia.

This is not what she said. it might have been what she meant (I doubt it), but it is definitely not what she said, read her post again (or see squidyj post).

 

[Jaffaboy]

Ok, I think I got it, I can think gay people are disgusting and it's my preference to choose not to associate with them, yet this does not make me homophobic.

There's a difference between associating with someone and being in a relationship with someone.

 

[Cipherr]

Wow, aren't you a snide little person. Admitting to baiting and saying you expected nothing of value from another poster? Classy.

/shrug. Snide perhaps, but I was right.

Me and him had a back and forth in other threads prior to this. After the first few exchanges in this thread, I could tell the conversation would loop on for pages and pages unless I brought it to a head. And thats exactly what I did, and rather than actually reinforce what he had been pushing, he bowed out.

I dont have a problem with it, but its the truth. Long ago could he had merely admitted that the guy accused some people unfairly of being transphobic, it would have ended there.

my my my, you are an arrogant one, aren't you. Nice dodging, you're a pretty epic troll I must admit.

Don't start, dodging what exactly? Go ahead and be specific, I think you know as well as I do that Im not going to dodge anything. You are welcome to pick the discussion up where you left it assuming you have a point to make.

 

[squidyj]

I would personally never date a transgender individual knowingly. They might think of themselves as a woman, and I think they certainly should do so. But I can't put vanilla pudding into my mouth and trick myself into thinking it's chocolate pudding. Once I have that knowledge, I am just not sexually or romantically into that person.

I don't think that's wrong. It doesn't make me transphobic. Just like not being into sexually dudes doesn't make me homophobic. It's all about the reasons for your preference. Mine are just chemical. Doesn't mean we can't be friends.

I haven't been following this thread much, but I noticed the argument is over definitions. With this understanding I would hope I wouldn't be construed as transphobic.

Can you put chocolate pudding in your mouth that looks and tastes vanilla without it being vanilla or without you thinking it's vanilla?

I think personally if it came up right away I'd probably be weirded out because what why are you telling me this? I don't even know you! After that I would be fine, as long as the surgical work was good.

If someone kept it from me for a long time I would be angry though, because obviously you didn't trust me enough to tell me so what did you think was going to happen and what do you think of me then?

 

[lexi]

There's a difference between associating with someone and being in a relationship with someone.

You expect me to believe that behind such vitriol and hatred lies the potential for friendship? I can read between the lines here. It's all gussied up as 'preference' but I know what lies beneath. I saw it in day in, day out for months before I actually became passable.

 

[Arment]

Can you put chocolate pudding in your mouth that looks and tastes vanilla without it being vanilla or without you thinking it's vanilla?

I knew that analogy would probably be bad.

If someone told me afterward that it was actually chocolate pudding then my brain has made that decision for me.

 

[Dead Man]

This is not what she said. it might have been what she meant (I doubt it), but it is definitely not what she said, read her post again.

If you really don't think that is what she meant, then I guess we just have a disagreement. You can continue to be wrong, and I will drink my coffee.

 

[CrocMother]

People have been killed over this kind of thing. It's not worth risking your life.

 

[Garbaga]

You expect me to believe that behind such vitriol and hatred lies the potential for friendship? I can read between the lines here. It's all gussied up as 'preference' but I know what lies beneath. I saw it in day in, day out for months before I actually became passable.

I expect you to think rationally and not jump to gross conclusions.

 

[Gaborn]

Don't start, dodging what exactly? Go ahead and be specific, I think you know as well as I do that Im not going to dodge anything. You are welcome to pick the discussion up where you left it assuming you have a point to make.

Now, see, I already told you earlier where you were dodging. The fact that you're playing this game shows, again, that you have no interest in arguing in good faith. Your inability to do so makes you look foolish, but then that's your choice.

I will leave you with this little nugget of wisdom though.

As a black guy I used to fucking hate when people who were clearly racist would say shit like "Im not racist. I have a black friend" its so goddamn stupid.

I cant believe people do the SAME SHIT regarding sexual preferences. Jesus.

And I agree with you here.

 

[videogames]

oh puppet master, pull our little strings

 

[squidyj]

If you really don't think that is what she meant, then I guess we just have a disagreement. You can continue to be wrong, and I will drink my coffee.

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

Clearly not meant at all, or supported in later posts.

 

[Dead Man]

I knew that analogy would probably be bad.

If someone told me afterward that it was actually chocolate pudding then my brain has made that decision for me.

Consider this analogy. You are blindfolded and someone tells you that they will be giving you vanilla pudding. You eat the pudding, and think it is great. Then when you have your blindfold removed you see it is actually another type of pudding you thought you did not like. Do you then throw up and proclaim unending hate for that pudding? Or do you see that you enjoyed it no matter what flavour it was, so continue to eat?

Clearly not meant at all, or supported in later posts.

If you ignore completely the previous paragraph that was about the some posters posting the same sentiment in more correct language.

 

[Cipherr]

Now, see, I already told you earlier where you were dodging. The fact that you're playing this game shows, again, that you have no interest in arguing in good faith. Your inability to do so makes you look foolish, but then that's your choice.

Right.... so, nothing?

Good talk then. Ill subscribe in case you change your mind, but the OKC game is on so, goodnight.

 

[Simplet]

If you really don't think that is what she meant, then I guess we just have a disagreement. You can continue to be wrong, and I will drink my coffee.

See my edit about squidyj post. You'll also notice that Lexi herself did not deny it was what she meant and has written several posts since going in the same direction.

But really it's been the position of several posters since the beginning of this thread, some of them are just not willing to state it in so many words. See Gaborn for example that has spent the whole thread equating not being willing to date a transgendered person to rejecting someone because they have black blood.

 

[Takuya]

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

Wtf? Are you serious? You actually believe this?

 

[Garbaga]

Wtf? Are you serious? You actually believe this?

It's maddening and irrational thought.

 

[Emitan]

2. These people are therein representative of everyone who would not date trans

You mean these ones?

You can see the same people in 2008 say 'FUCK NO TRANS WOMEN ARE DISGUSTING AND THEY'RE STILL DUDES' in 2012 say 'I prefer not to date transwomen'

The ones who think they're still men? The opinions she was addressing?

So yes, you missed the entire point.

 

[Arment]

Consider this analogy. You are blindfolded and someone tells you that they will be giving you vanilla pudding. You eat the pudding, and think it is great. Then when you have your blindfold removed you see it is actually another type of pudding you thought you did not like. Do you then throw up and proclaim unending hate for that pudding? Or do you see that you enjoyed it no matter what flavour it was, so continue to eat?

Food doesn't have much of an emotional attachment to it, which is why it was a bad analogy.

If you take the same situation but the blindfold is really an analogy for having the truth hidden from me for a long time then I would feel pretty betrayed.

 

[squidyj]

You mean these ones?



The ones who think they're still men? The opinions she was addressing?

So yes, you missed the entire point.

Read back the last sentence in that post and it'll all come together for you although it might help to recognize that the entire post was directed to specific bolded section of the post she quoted asking a specific question.

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

Ok, I think I got it, I can think gay people are disgusting and it's my preference to choose not to associate with them, yet this does not make me homophobic.

I'm not even saying the conclusion is necessarily wrong, the implied logic in the post is horribly horribly flawed though and apparently there are people now saying Lexi didn't say what Lexi has repeated to be her position, which is straight up fucking insane.

 

[Garbaga]

The pudding analogy does not apply, our sexual behavior is far more complex than taste preferences.

 

[Arment]

The pudding analogy does not apply, our sexual behavior is far more complex than taste preferences.

Having made the analogy I agree. A poor analogy indeed.

Really it was just used to explain that once I know someone used to be a male I now know and I don't know how I would react. All I can say is right now I wouldn't maintain a romantic relationship with that person.

And I can honestly say that, yes, it's because I now equate them with being a male. I don't know how I could get around that.

 

[Simplet]

You mean these ones?



The ones who think they're still men? The opinions she was addressing?

So yes, you missed the entire point.

What's the point of playing dumb like this? Lexi herself has written three posts since then clarifying what she meant.

 

[Dead Man]

See my edit about squidyj post. You'll also notice that Lexi herself did not deny it was what she meant and has written several posts since going in the same direction.

But really it's been the position of several posters since the beginning of this thread, some of them are just not willing to state it in so many words. See Gaborn for example that has spent the whole thread equating not being willing to date a transgendered person to rejecting someone because they have black blood.

Lets look at the whole statement again shall we?

I pointed out earlier, which seems to have mostly been ignored, but there was a very similar thread in 2008, where moderation was, shall we say, much looser toward transgender stuff. You can see the same people in 2008 say 'FUCK NO TRANS WOMEN ARE DISGUSTING AND THEY'RE STILL DUDES' in 2012 say 'I prefer not to date transwomen'

People prefer not to date transwomen because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

See that bit I bolded? I think I see how you could look at the last bit, and put some extra words in so it reads something like:

All people who prefer not to date transwomen do it because they think they're disgusting and really just men. This is transphobia.

I do not think that is what Lexi meant. If it is, and I was wrong, then sorry to Lexi for putting words in your mouth. What I get from what she wrote is that the people that prefer not to date trans women BECAUSE they are disgusting and still really men is the transphobia, not the not dating transgendered individuals part.

Now, I will return to my coffee.

Edit: Grrr no coffee yet.

Read back the last sentence in that post and it'll all come together for you although it might help to recognize that the entire post was directed to specific bolded section of the post she quoted asking a specific question.





I'm not even saying the conclusion is necessarily wrong, the implied logic in the post is horribly horribly flawed though and apparently there are people now saying Lexi didn't say what Lexi has repeated to be her position, which is straight up fucking insane.

So you think this statement:

Ok, I think I got it, I can think gay people are disgusting and it's my preference to choose not to associate with them, yet this does not make me homophobic.

bears out your supposition? That is just her making an equivalent statement about another group. What does that have to do with dating?