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[Jeff Albertson]

This thread btw is excellent if you want to practice how far you can take your transphobia without being banned. It's like Russian Roulette, only with no bullets in the chamber!

I don't see why people should be banned for holding an opinion and discussing it in a relevant thread.

One guy went on the attack and rightly got banned but other people are simply giving their views on the subject at hand.

 

[Dead Man]

I don't see why people should be banned for holding an opinion and discussing it in a relevant thread.

One guy went on the attack and rightly got banned but other people are simply giving their views on the subject at hand.

Many opinions are banned on this board. Try telling Jewish people to get over the holocaust, try telling all Muslims they are terrorists, try saying women can't drive (not so much now of course lol). I will not presume to tell the mods and admins what they should do with their board, but people are banned for opinions all the time.

 

[Platy]

95% of gaf is heterosexual male gaf.

Never said otherwise ... just want diferent opinions since it is KNOWN that both women and gay people have their sexuality more fluidy than a male living in our male centered world.

Still, I don't really get what's insulting about the fact that trans girls aren't 100% like real girls.
People can be different without being better or worse.

The fact that it is scientificaly proven that trans girls ARE real girls.

This is off course if you ignore all the struggle of the movement, it basicaly sums up to "identify me as a the gender i am", wich means that sentences like "i respect you as a women, even if deep down to me you are just another guy" means as much as "i respect you as a black, even if deep down to me you are just another monkey" (replace black/monkey with any minority/slur you can think of)

Only Political correctness is NOT the goal to any segregated movement.

EVEN GENETICAL?!?

drunk thread <---- that way

¬¬

Here are some examples:

This one is a favorite just because it is the latest scientific discovery :
DMRT1 and FOXL2, 2 genes that fight some kind of tug-of-war inside you that if has the balance changed, can turn YOUR testes into ovaries and vice versa (wich would start producing the according hormone as if nothing happened)

this one is a classic biology example:
Klinefelter's syndrome, a condition where the person born geneticaly with 2 X chromossomes is a male in every sense of the word.

and this one was already used as an example:
Androgen insensitivity syndrome a condition where a person born geneticaly with a XY sexual chromosome is a women in every sense of the word

These 3 examples prove that your genes means NOTHING about what gender and even sex on a "born with genital" way you are.

 

[Uchip]

Many opinions are banned on this board. Try telling Jewish people to get over the holocaust, try telling all Muslims they are terrorists, try saying women can't drive (not so much now of course lol). I will not presume to tell the mods and admins what they should do with their board, but people are banned for opinions all the time.

those arent really opinions, man
theyre just insults

 

[Dead Man]

those arent really opinions, man
theyre just insults

They are exactly opinions, they just happen to be insulting to the party concerned. They are opinions in the same way that someone who doesn't think trans women are women has an opinion. It is fucked up, and offensive, but it is an opinion.

 

[SorchaR]

To answer the question in the thread title: No, transgendered folk aren't obligated to disclose that information.
However, personally I would like to know if I was in a long term relationship, because I believe that relationships are built on trust and that's a pretty big thing not to tell. I would hope my partner would trust me enough to share such a big part of their past with me.
I don't think it would matter to me at all, but I'm pretty open-minded anyway.

As for MtF trans not being proper women: As a woman I consider Lexi (and others like her) to be just as female as I am. Probably even more, since I'm not much into girly or effeminate stuff. She's a woman no different then I am, just happened to be born in the wrong body first of all.

 

[lexi]

As for MtF trans not being proper women: As a woman I consider Lexi (and others like her) to be just as female as I am. Probably even more, since I'm not much into girly or effeminate stuff. She's a woman no different then I am, just happened to be born in the wrong body first of all.

Well, as far as femininity goes, I put myself at about a 7.5 on the Devolution scale. I'm really not all that feminine.

Also, Lexi, please post more. You're posts have been the highlight of the thread.

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm. My posts here have mostly been bitter sarcasm mixed with a dash of incredulous outrage.

I'm not exactly helpful to the 'cause', but I can't help the way some of the opinions here make me feel.

 

[SmokyDave]

I don't think there is an obligation there, but I do think you're storing up potential trouble for later if you don't disclose the information. Like any 'secret' that large in a relationship, really.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in that situation. I'd want to be open and honest with my partner but even as a straight, white (fucking gorgeous) male, I know and fear rejection. I can't imagine what it would feel like if I were trans. Nerve-racking doesn't sum it up.

 

[Orayn]

I don't see why people should be banned for holding an opinion and discussing it in a relevant thread.

One guy went on the attack and rightly got banned but other people are simply giving their views on the subject at hand.

Pro-Tip: GAF is intolerant of some things. Certain opinions get you banned, like "Women are inferior to men and their role is to raise children and take care of the house." or "Jews are a bunch of greedy wretches and I hate them because they killed my Lord."

 

[Pollux]

Well, as far as femininity goes, I put myself at about a 7.5 on the Devolution scale. I'm really not all that feminine.



I'm going to assume this is sarcasm. My posts here have mostly been bitter sarcasm mixed with a dash of incredulous outrage.

I'm not exactly helpful to the 'cause', but I can't help the way some of the opinions here make me feel.

No sarcasm. Those sarcastic posts had me actually thinking about what I would do in such a situation rather than just giving some answer with 0 reflection.

I'm sorry my comment came off as sarcastic, that was not my intention.

 

[Uchip]

They are exactly opinions, they just happen to be insulting to the party concerned. They are opinions in the same way that someone who doesn't think trans women are women has an opinion. It is fucked up, and offensive, but it is an opinion.

what you described were the processes of divulging an inflammatory opinion, as in, insulting.
you never said anything that was an opinion. Unless you think its possible for anyone to actually believe that all Muslims are terrorists.

 

[Derwind]

edit: i swear that post was quoting something else

The fuck is wrong with some of you, seriously. There is literally nothing that can be said to convince half these people that they're being bigots. This thread is on repeat and each time another shithead comes in and starts off with how they're approving only to say something contradictory. Then lines start getting drawn in the sand as if they actually make sense.

Broken record of bigotry up in this hizzy.

Can some of you just not have children? You can adopt. That's fine. I mean, it's only genetic or whatever the fuck logic your brain uses to come to such asinine conclusions.

It's like you have to have sex with a transgender individual or you're a bigot. Which blows my fucking mind...

I read some of the people's post here and while I agree the shit can be pretty insensitive but intercourse is something done to one's body and telling them there's one way things can go down or they're intolerant... that line of thinking hurts your point more than it helps.

I really hope that in the future everyone will want to be in a transgender relationship. But at the moment the world is not so perfect and pushing people to conform to a single way to look at sexual preference by calling them bigot if they choose otherwise is not going to solve anything.

And to be considered part of a gender & have gender equality does not start and end with sex.

 

[Slayven]

Personally I would like that of info up front.

 

[Gaborn]

what you described were the processes of divulging an inflammatory opinion, as in, insulting.
you never said anything that was an opinion. Unless you think its possible for anyone to actually believe that all Muslims are terrorists.

Like Dark Octave thinks TG women are to his mother, his wife his sisters, and his daughter?

Let's not pretend that there have not been some FLAGRANTLY insulting posts in this thread of exactly the same type Dead Man mentioned.

And yes, I chose him directly because he was banned, though I wouldn't say he was necessarily the only person that said something over the line (in my view, not necessarily the mods)

 

[Omegasquash]

Personally I would like that of info up front.

Could be a very good thing to learn it out of the gate. Frankly (and I don't know for sure because this theory isn't "battle tested"), I think that would ultimately lead to that person being more attractive and a deeper trust.

 

[windz]

Something like this should be brought up early on. Sort of helps the whole trust and communication thing along. Just a bit.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on this topic, and I didn't read too much of this thread.

However, if I went down on a girl, and later found I was licking the remains of a once-penis, I think I have the right to be pretty pissed. I'm pretty sure we could all think of countless (less severe) instances of ways people can be misled, and not be happy with it.

 

[QuickSilverD]

I do not see an escenario were it is a good idea for a transgender person to not disclose that information after a sexual encounter has occurred.

 

[bjb]

Pro-Tip: GAF is intolerant of some things. Certain opinions get you banned, like "Women are inferior to men and their role is to raise children and take care of the house." or "Jews are a bunch of greedy wretches and I hate them because they killed my Lord."

Yeah there's been some insensitive remarks in here for sure (albeit sparingly imo), but on the flip side - there's other posters in here acting completely over-dramatic. Claiming that their pursuit of happiness is in jeopardy. Over a message board. On the internet.

Just boggles my mind.

Seems there's a growing trend on GAF in recent years that if enough of the same crowd (or particular posters) complain enough, or become outraged and offended - people get banned. Often times for just expressing a non-malicious opinion (Example: Poster ITT stated he doesn't feel that trans-Women are the same as a biologically born Woman). To me that's an opinion. You may not agree with it, but it's his opinion and it's not overtly offensive.

It's not a democracy though, so you're right - the intolerance certainly exist (fair or not).

Back to the thread at hand - I feel as though if a trans person doesn't reveal that information up front, it's quite disingenuous and shows a lack of respect for themselves and their potential partner.

 

[Gaborn]

Back to the thread at hand - I feel as though if a trans person doesn't reveal that information up front, it's quite disingenuous and shows a lack of respect for themselves and their potential partner.

Define "up front"

 

[Jaffaboy]

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, I must admit I don't have much knowledge in terms of people that are transgenered, or much knowledge on the difference between sex and gender so I've found this thread pretty eye opening and educational. There is one thing that I don't really understand about what is going on in this topic though, and that is something along the lines of 'How can a straight guy reject a trans-woman based on other reasons other than fertility?'

Now I don't think I've ever met anyone that is trans, let alone started a relationship with someone who is. It is great that we live in a time where people who are trans can have the corrective surgery to make them the gender/sex they want to be, and I think that if I were to meet someone that is trans I wouldn't judge them or treat them any differently than anyone else. However, if I were to date a girl and later find out they were trans, I have to admit that would probably freak me out quite a lot and would probably put me off wanting to take things further. I can't say that this would happen 100% for sure because I haven't been through it, if they were amazing enough in other ways I think I would be open minded enough to reconsider, but putting myself in that situation in my head that is generally the outcome. What I can't see is how this is a bigoted or unacceptable response.

The reason being is that even though you are a female mentally and physically, you were still born physically as a male. I don't think there is any disputing this fact, you can't change that. That is what makes you different from another woman, and aside from the fact that I do actually want kids one day, why I would stop being interested in someone trans. I personally don't think I could get past that thought that they were once male. Again, I can't say this 100% for sure, but that is how I would probably react. I don't feel that is bigoted, and as I've said before, I would be open minded enough to reconsider if they really were amazing. But it would be an issue for me, possibly because of my lack of knowledge on the subject, who knows, but I think calling that bigoted or unacceptable would be unfair. I would never spread bigoted hate about anyone, and I would never treat anyone differently from face value, but I think that at a more intimate level, I do think that things are different. Everyone is more judgemental in this way, and sometimes it is in an irrational way, so I can't see why this would be any different than me not finding someone attractive because of their race, or their eating habits, or their teeth to gum ratio.

Also, what SmokyDave said.

 

[videogames]

It's like you have to have sex with a transgender individual or you're a bigot. Which blows my fucking mind...

I read some of the people's post here and while I agree the shit can be pretty insensitive but intercourse is something done to one's body and telling them there's one way things can go down or they're intolerant... that line of thinking hurts your point more than it helps.

I really hope that in the future everyone will want to be in a transgender relationship. But at the moment the world is not so perfect and pushing people to conform to a single way to look at sexual preference by calling them bigot if they choose otherwise is not going to solve anything.

And to be considered part of a gender & have gender equality does not start and end with sex.

When and who you have intercourse with is up to you, but you're not a victim the intent of intercourse was the priority over all else. Writing people off because of something is having a prejudice and there has been a portion of people in this thread that are bigots.

I'm all for knowing who you're going to have sex with. I just don't think you can undo feelings like some people like to believe. Maybe there is a really, really good reason for why someone wouldn't ever want to be involved with a transgender. So far, I can't think of any reasons that are not offensive, and no one in this thread has stated any that are not either.

To rule out people without knowing them? Come on.

 

[lexi]

Yeah there's been some insensitive remarks in here for sure (albeit sparingly imo), but on the flip side - there's other posters in here acting completely over-dramatic. Claiming that their pursuit of happiness is in jeopardy. Over a message board. On the internet.

Just boggles my mind.

Seems there's a growing trend on GAF in recent years that if enough of the same crowd (or particular posters) complain enough, or become outraged and offended - people get banned. Often times for just expressing a non-malicious opinion (Example: Poster ITT stated he doesn't feel that trans-Women are the same as a biologically born Woman). To me that's an opinion. You may not agree with it, but it's his opinion and it's not overtly offensive.

It's not a democracy though, so you're right - the intolerance certainly exist (fair or not).

Back to the thread at hand - I feel as though if a trans person doesn't reveal that information up front, it's quite disingenuous and shows a lack of respect for themselves and their potential partner.

Well it's no secret who you're referring to, subtlety definitely isn't your strong point.

Let's take a look at a thread back in 2008, essentially the same topic: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333472&highlight=date+a+trans

It's because 'particular posters' become 'outraged' that the tone toward transgender people is no longer what it's like in that thread. I do notice I can see some of the same posters in both threads, in 2008 it's 'EEWWWWW FUCK NO FUCKING DSGUSTING PIECES OF SHIT' to 2012's 'I say, I would not be interested, I respect their choices, but they're not realllllllly women right?'

 

[Devolution]

Yeah there's been some insensitive remarks in here for sure (albeit sparingly imo), but on the flip side - there's other posters in here acting completely over-dramatic. Claiming that their pursuit of happiness is in jeopardy. Over a message board. On the internet.

Just boggles my mind.

Seems there's a growing trend on GAF in recent years that if enough of the same crowd (or particular posters) complain enough, or become outraged and offended - people get banned. Often times for just expressing a non-malicious opinion (Example: Poster ITT stated he doesn't feel that trans-Women are the same as a biologically born Woman). To me that's an opinion. You may not agree with it, but it's his opinion and it's not overtly offensive.

It's not a democracy though, so you're right - the intolerance certainly exist (fair or not).

Back to the thread at hand - I feel as though if a trans person doesn't reveal that information up front, it's quite disingenuous and shows a lack of respect for themselves and their potential partner.

It's not really overdramatic when you're being insulted directly and your personhood is being minimized. That's what people tend to not realize. When you act like a bigot you're personally offending someone. Just because you didn't levy an insult at them directly doesn't mean you're insulting them any less for who they are. That's what a lot of people fail to realize say when arguing with me. They started the personal attacks when they declared some bullshit about my gender and then want to feign ignorance when I call them out. Posters act like I made it personal when it already hit that mark and I'm not going to stand idly by while someone denigrates and bullshits about women. And Lexi shouldn't have to pretend like some of the posts in here are anything but propagating ignorant bullshit about transwomen. She has every right to be offended and to call it "overdramatic" is a silencing tactic that you honestly shouldn't be doing.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333472&highlight=date+a+trans

:/

 

[akira28]

When and who you have intercourse with is up to you, but you're not a victim the intent of intercourse was the priority over all else. Writing people off because of something is having a prejudice and there has been a portion of people in this thread that are bigots.

I'm all for knowing who you're going to have sex with. I just don't think you can undo feelings like some people like to believe. Maybe there is a really, really good reason for why someone wouldn't ever want to be involved with a transgender. So far, I can't think of any reasons that are not offensive, and no one in this thread has stated any that are not either.

To rule out people without knowing them? Come on.

I could easily rule in having a TG person as a friend. I could rule in loving them as a person. But I would have to rule out becoming physically intimate or having sexual intercourse with them. Without knowing them. And there is no problem with that, is there? It's not bigotry or even prejudice. This isn't a 'you should try it, you might like it' situation, is it? It's a decision on what you want to do with your body, just like someone else has made a decision about what they want to do with theirs. It's not a write off to say that you only want to have sex with women who were born women. It's a write off to disrespect, neglect, or otherwise exclude someone from basic human dignity and respect, but I really don't think you can add the sex angle into it.

I would never want to hurt someone who was transgendered because of my choice. I'm sensitive to the feelings that would come with that rejection that would seem as 'by writ', but that's why I would want to have these things out as soon as possible, so I can be a good friend, without confusion, complicated feelings, or possible anger when it comes to opening that intimate part of myself with another human being.

 

[fireside]

To me that's an opinion. You may not agree with it, but it's his opinion and it's not overtly offensive.

Oh, it’s not overtly offensive, that makes it okay.


Here’s a collection of posts that I confidently feel are transphobic.

This is a heavy subject to talk about, it should be the first thing said "Hi my name was Bill, but its now Elizabeth. Wanna go out for a few drinks?"

First date topic. Hell, it should be brought up the moment either person asks the other out on a date.

Yeah, this would be VERY important information to the majority of people in the dating scene.

It should be brought up before plans are made to go out with that person for the first time, just like the guy above me said.

“Transgendered people scare me, keep me away from them”

Both.

Transgender, without question. Personally I think it's deceptive for a 'penis-possessing person' to be dressed up as a woman and not disclose that information to someone who's obviously interested (assuming this person is convinced that 'she' has a vagina). I have no idea how/when that would be brought up, though.

“Transwomen people are just men in dresses”

Why would anyone want a relationship based off of a lie? The attempt at deception alone is enough to send every red flag waving.

“Transwomen are just deceiving men”

Yeah you ought to tell me upfront so I don't waste time and money on you.

Self explanatory.

How is it a tough situation? You tell them ASAP and say, hey I used to be a dude. How is that difficult? I don't want to fuck a dude, regardless of whether he had his balls chopped off or not.

i would prefer not to date a dude

“Transwomen are men”

If you are comfortable with being completely open with your sexuality then that's good for you. But being more selective about your sexuality is good as well. You seem to lack the understanding that not everyone can or is wiling to be like you.

For me, it has nothing to do with kids. Michael Jackson was still black despite all his efforts and surgeries to look white. Beef flavored chicken is still chicken and a man who has had surgery to remove his testicles is still a man, imo.

I applaud those who take the extra step to be closer to what they feel and to be happy in life and I'll wholeheartedly support you until the day I die. But for a man to be artificially altered and say he is 100% woman is an insult to my mom, my wife, my daughter and my sisters. You are not as much a woman as they are and you never will be. You are a transwoman, now and for the rest of your life.

“Transwomen aren’t really women”

Relationships should be about trust. Not disclosing who you are goes against this.

I would never ever date a transgendered person.

“Transpeople scare me”

No matter how many pills and therapy a guy makes, he's never going to be able to really be a 100% legit female.

“Transwomen aren’t real women”

I think trans "people" should resort to online dating or any similar service that will allow them to show a profile and their real nature to anyone who might be interested. That way, people who are into that kinda stuff can actively look for it and they know what to expect. They shouldn't be allowed to flirt and seduce in the real world, trying to pass off as something they are not.

I would flip my shit so hard if I was tricked into dating one of those. Even if it was super hot and could 100% pass off as a girl, I really don't want to have anything to do with something that used to have a penis between its legs. Anyway you look at it, a trans still is and always will be the same sex it was born with, so even a guy who becomes a 100% functional women is still a guy.

Self explanatory.

It should literally be the first words out of the transgendered person's mouth when they talk to somebody.

Not even kidding.

Self explanatory.

A trans-woman (or trans-man) should recognize that not everyone thinks of her as a real woman, and therefore should not hide that fact from a potential partner. If a trans-woman were to "forget" to disclose her condition to get me in bed, I would honestly sue her for emotional/psychological damage.

“Transwomen aren’t real women”

I think the issue is here you simply cant convince people that if you take out penis and substitute it with a vagina, you're suddenly a woman. To the person in question, they might feel that way. But not to others.

Personally, in my opinion i don't think surgery, medications or makeup will change your biological blue print. If you're born a man, then you're a man. Nothing can change this in my opinion. If my mother wanted to be a man then more power to her. But i will always see her as woman

“Transwomen aren’t real women”

I would be really fucking angry if I was making out with a guy, regardless of what gender they identify with and did not tell me. Regardless of my personal sexual orientation.

“Transwomen are men”

I never singled you out in the malice way you make it sound. I never even mentioned your name.

You guys can talk all about gender being in the mind and soul if you want to. But the physical evidence is in the genes. They don't lie and cannot be altered. If you posses a "Y" chromosome, then physically you are a man. No knife or drug can ever change that.

Lexi, I would never disrespect you and call you anything other than what you would want me to call you (example: This is Lexi. She is a woman), but I can never truly think of you as a 100% true woman the same as I do when I see the women in my life. If you are a true 100% woman, then what are they, 110% true woman? You are not equal when it comes to womanhood. As I said before, the majority of the men in this thread strongly agree with me on this. They have expressed that they feel the exact same way. The difference is that maybe I am more direct about it.

For me, this is just a thread in passing that I'm sharing my opinion in, but for you, it's your everyday reality and if I was insensitive maybe I need to work on my delivery in the future but I'm not sorry about what I said and am saying here now.

I don't think I have ever called anyone out of their name in the 4 or 5 years of me being on these forums. Yet you guys feel you have the right to directly insult me and call me names out of malice. I have the right to my opinion and you have the right to yours. Lets keep this a discussion and not a personal bashing.

“Transwomen aren’t real women”


As you can tell, there is one opinion that seems to be pretty common: transsexual people aren’t really what they say they are. Hey, that’s the one you think is okay, because it’s not overtly offensive! But that is not just an insult, it is wholesale refusal of transsexual people. The fact that the opinion isn’t “overtly offensive” is why it’s so dangerous! Ignorant people (and I use ignorant in the nicest way (honestly)) come into this thread, and aren’t sure what to think. They read some posts and think that all they have to do to be respectful to transsexuals is use the right pronouns. They don’t have to think that the transsexual in question is a real woman or man. They can even be vocal about that, but as long as they’re using the right pronouns, they’re being respectful. Right?


WRONG. You are not being respectful. You are just patronizing transsexuals.

 

[Gaborn]

Well it's no secret who you're referring to, subtlety definitely isn't your strong point.

Let's take a look at a thread back in 2008, essentially the same topic: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333472&highlight=date+a+trans

It's because 'particular posters' become 'outraged' that the tone toward transgender people is no longer what it's like in that thread. I do notice I can see some of the same posters in both threads, in 2008 it's 'EEWWWWW FUCK NO FUCKING DSGUSTING PIECES OF SHIT' to 2012's 'I say, I would not be interested, I respect their choices, but they're not realllllllly women right?'

It is ironic that Femmeworth was one of the posters saying no though. I mean, attitudes on these issues are slow to change. I know that many GAFers haven't really "changed" on this issue, some are "nicer" about it these days, some aren't, but it is interesting to take a look back. I'm glad at the LEAST the moderation has gotten a little bit stricter about this issue though in terms of the way people respond.

It takes time though for attitudes to shift. Gay threads from 3 years ago were vastly different both in moderation and in tone than they are today and I DON'T believe that is purely an issue of the mods being stricter. Trans threads... it's an issue society is still struggling with, GAF has the same struggles too.

 

[HKguy]

honesty, because eventually I'm going to see the converted areas; and It's not hard to see where someone went with a bunch of surgical equipment.

 

[Simplet]

I just came back to this thread to thank Lexi for that Stanford university link she posted back on page 12. I've been marathoning through these videos since then, that teacher is really charismatic.

As far as the thread itself is concerned we've know reached the point where not being attracted to a transsexual person has become offensive by itself (videogames' post). I don't even know what to say to that. The idea that you're going to shame people into modifying what they find sexually attractive is kind of out there.

 

[Grinchy]

Earlier in the thread I made the claim that I can almost always tell. I just saw this recently, and holy shit I would never know this used to be a dude. If it's the same person, of course. I seriously don't know because I feel like I am looking at a hot chick on the right.

 

[videogames]

I could easily rule in having a TG person as a friend. I could rule in loving them as a person. But I would have to rule out becoming physically intimate or having sexual intercourse with them. Without knowing them. And there is no problem with that, is there? It's not bigotry or even prejudice. This isn't a 'you should try it, you might like it' situation, is it? It's a decision on what you want to do with your body, just like someone else has made a decision about what they want to do with theirs. It's not a write off to say that you only want to have sex with women who were born women. It's a write off to disrespect, neglect, or otherwise exclude someone from basic human dignity and respect, but I really don't think you can add the sex angle into it.

Yes it is.

i only want to have sex with whites.

wwaaa

I would never want to hurt someone who was transgendered because of my choice. I'm sensitive to the feelings that would come with that rejection that would seem as 'by writ', but that's why I would want to have these things out as soon as possible, so I can be a good friend, without confusion, complicated feelings, or possible anger when it comes to opening that intimate part of myself with another human being.

So this actually you being the better person. Protecting them from the actions of you.

You're the victim here. I understand now.

 

[mu cephei]

I think what people who say trans women aren't real women don't understand is that what they're saying boils down to this:

1. A person is ultimately defined by their body, not their brain. Because if your brain disagrees with your body, then the body must win.

2. If the body is always right, and your brain disagrees with it, then there's something wrong with your brain. Basically you're deluded.

I recommend everyone to read the transgaf thread. I guess it's possible to hold transphobic views afterwards but it certainly enlightened me. Personally I think the vital point is that what really defines 'me' is the me in my head. This is who I am, how I feel and how I want others to see me. And I should extend that curtesy to everyone else.

 

[docbon]

Let's take a look at a thread back in 2008, essentially the same topic: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333472&highlight=date+a+trans

interesting to see an entire thread going into freakout mode over a simple question. byproduct's link on the last page did clear up a few misconceptions I had, though.

 

[Gaborn]

Earlier in the thread I made the claim that I can almost always tell. I just saw this recently, and holy shit I would never know this used to be a dude. If it's the same person, of course. I seriously don't know because I feel like I am looking at a hot chick on the right.

They are the same person, and she is a hot chick on the right.

 

[Glorified G]

Yes it is.

i only want to have sex with whites.

wwaaa

You still don't get it. If you only want to have sex with white people because they're the only race you find appealing without prejudice, there is nothing wrong with that. It's called preference. If it's because of a bigoted view that you've learned in the past, it's not.

I know it's shocking, but it is possible for people to not find it appealing to be with a transgendered person without a negative stereotype linked being the reason. Just like it's possible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to the same gender & not be a bigot because of it.

 

[videogames]

You still don't get it. If you only want to have sex with white people because they're the only race you find appealing without prejudice, there is nothing wrong with that. It's called preference. If it's because of a bigoted view that you've learned in the past, it's not.

I know it's shocking, but it is possible for people to not find it appealing to be with a transgendered person without a negative stereotype linked being the reason. Just like it's possible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to the same gender & not be a bigot because of it.

yeah, i mean, this makes sense if you think transwomen are still men

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

because then the discussion would not make any sense

 

[Glorified G]

I think what people who say trans women aren't real women don't understand is that what they're saying boils down to this:

1. A person is ultimately defined by their body, not their brain. Because if your brain disagrees with your body, then the body must win.

2. If the body is always right, and your brain disagrees with it, then there's something wrong with your brain. Basically you're deluded.

I recommend everyone to read the transgaf thread. I guess it's possible to hold transphobic views afterwards but it certainly enlightened me. Personally I think the vital point is that what really defines 'me' is the me in my head. This is who I am, how I feel and how I want others to see me. And I should extend that curtesy to everyone else.

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

 

[Gaborn]

You still don't get it. If you only want to have sex with white people because they're the only race you find appealing without prejudice, there is nothing wrong with that. It's called preference. If it's because of a bigoted view that you've learned in the past, it's not.

I know it's shocking, but it is possible for people to not find it appealing to be with a transgendered person without a negative stereotype linked being the reason. Just like it's possible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to the same gender & not be a bigot because of it.

There is a difference though between, for example, only dating white people (I've dated people from various races personally) and between breaking up with someone after you find out they have a black parent. No one is looking down on people who don't find transgender people appealing, the problem is whether it's wrong to completely switch off your feelings once you have that information even though nothing else is different.

 

[Opiate]

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm. My posts here have mostly been bitter sarcasm mixed with a dash of incredulous outrage.

I'm not exactly helpful to the 'cause', but I can't help the way some of the opinions here make me feel.

I find your posts very enlightening. Your sphere is not one I have ever had reason to enter personally (i.e. I do not personally know any trans men or women), and I am interested in your thoughts and opinions.

 

[akira28]

Yes it is.

i only want to have sex with whites.

wwaaa

OK...so you only want to have sex with whites. That's your choice, and I could make a judgement on you based on your choice, but ultimately I can't charge you with anything. I could even call you closed minded since the differences all come down to how much melanin is in the skin, but really it comes down to who you want to be with.

wwaaa

?? sorry, no outrage here. You can judge me all you want, but you might be judging me unfairly.

So this actually you being the better person. Protecting them from the actions of you.

I can't even make that claim, of being the better person. Just a person, who wants to be respectful towards other people.

You're the victim here. I understand now.

Who's the victim? What do you understand exactly? If someone doesn't tell me the whole truth before we become physically involved, am I wrong to feel lied to? It wasn't any of my business?

 

[Derwind]

When and who you have intercourse with is up to you, but you're not a victim the intent of intercourse was the priority over all else. Writing people off because of something is having a prejudice and there has been a portion of people in this thread that are bigots.

I'm all for knowing who you're going to have sex with. I just don't think you can undo feelings like some people like to believe. Maybe there is a really, really good reason for why someone wouldn't ever want to be involved with a transgender. So far, I can't think of any reasons that are not offensive, and no one in this thread has stated any that are not either.

To rule out people without knowing them? Come on.

But I already do that, I rule out gay guys, I rule out a whole myriad of women(junkies, fundamentalist, extreme conservatives..ect)...

I'm shallow I guess but I'm not a bigot(at least I think I'm not).

And of course, I wholeheartedly believe emotionally any human being can be attracted to another human being. Until sexual preference gets in the way...

So if the case arose where I was in a relationship with a transgender woman without knowing she was transgender and I find out later, if our connection was strong enough... I don't know if I can honestly answer what I'd be doing but I'd like to think I'd give it a try and stay...

But as for who I am right now, I have no interest in seeking a relationship sexual or otherwise... and I believe that's how many people feel in this thread....

I'm sorry that it all sounds offensive(which I agree, much of what people were saying was out of line), I can totally understand why but it is what it is...

I don't think there's much more I can say about this subject.

 

[mu cephei]

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

nevermind, misunderstood the question. I can't answer, sorry.

 

[Drpunch]

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

This is what I do not get. Transwomen/transmen want to be accepted as normal males/females in society but constantly refer to themselves as otherwise. By simply calling yourself a transwomen, you are automatically differentiating yourself from a "normal" woman. I think if you truly want to be accepted as a real women, call yourself a women. By having a different label, people are automatically biased towards thinking you are different.

 

[videogames]

when you acknowledge what you're saying is offensive, and you even apologize for it

wouldn't that kind of set off some alarm?

i don't understand

I can't even make that claim, of being the better person. Just a person, who wants to be respectful towards other people.


Who's the victim? What do you understand exactly? If someone doesn't tell me the whole truth before we become physically involved, am I wrong to feel lied to? It wasn't any of my business?

just say what you want to say.

what are you getting at.

are you waiting for someone else to make the distinction you're trying to make? just say it.

your schtick is tiring. dancing around the subject, playing dumb to what you're actually saying. just let it out. the world is waiting to hear what has already been inferred.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

It's part of their history.

I mean, referring to someone as a "white woman" or "tall woman" does not mean that they are not women. "Trans" is an adjective applying to "woman." This is how the English language works.

For example, if I called you an "uneducated bigot," the "uneducated" descriptor would not imply that you are an inauthentic "bigot."

 

[Jaffaboy]

Let's take a look at a thread back in 2008, essentially the same topic: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333472&highlight=date+a+trans

I did, and these two posts on the last page really stood out for me:

Your wang may not know the XY DNA stream, but in the real world, once you know your brain starts adding the info. When you look at the long sexy legs, your brain will fill in long sexy MAN legs. That's when you would have to consciously override your innate sexual preference.

Without a second thought.

If I was attracted to 'her' and we got on really well then why not?
She'd have to have breasts and I don't think I'd be too happy if it still had a penis, but I see no reason why I shouldn't date somebody based solely on who they used to be.
If people judged me based on my past I'd probably never get laid again so it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. What is important is who they are at the moment, and if they're currently a hot women, that I get on really well with, I'd consider myself stupid if I turned them down.

Of course this is all theory and I cannot say for sure because I've never met such a 'woman.'

This is the reason why I am torn on the issue. I may one day meet the girl of my dreams that I discover is trans. This might not bother me in any way and doesn't change my opinion of her at all and we could be happy together. But it could also bother me if the thoughts in my head see her only as what she used to be, which was male. You wouldn't be able to stop a thought like this if it occurs, and lexi's response to this as 'Bullshit, it doesn't work like that.' well, who is to say?

Well, nobody can unless they've been in that situation and even then they're only speaking for themselves.

It is good however to at least see attitudes change dramatically in such a small amount of time, even if it is just on GAF.

 

[Gaborn]

To all the people who believe trans women are 100% real women, why do you give them or yourself that sub label in the first place? I can't imagine someone who believes they are a woman would call themselves anything but that.

I'm actually genuinely curious.

I'm curious as well, what does it matter to your view if they are "real" women or not? What is wrong with them having that label? You don't have to like trans men or women, you don't have to "believe" them or go through any other mental gymnastics but why does it bother you that they use that word to describe themselves?

Too often people seem to take a word and then want to twist it to hurt someone. Opponents of gay marriage for example will sometimes refer to gay "marriage" with the scare quotes meant to denote it's not a real marriage somehow. That it's fake and wrong and all sorts of value judgments. I get the same sense here.

So I guess I'm not sure why it bothers people so much, why it sticks out to them just that much that they use a word like "woman" to describe themselves. I've known some AMAZING people who happen to be trans and I don't think about it twice. They are women (I haven't met any trans men yet). The fact that it took medical science to help them be their true gender is irrelevant. I just can't NOT think of them as their gender.

 

[Kabouter]

It is ironic that Femmeworth was one of the posters saying no though. I mean, attitudes on these issues are slow to change. I know that many GAFers haven't really "changed" on this issue, some are "nicer" about it these days, some aren't, but it is interesting to take a look back. I'm glad at the LEAST the moderation has gotten a little bit stricter about this issue though in terms of the way people respond.

Honestly, having gone through all of this thread earlier today for modding purposes, I found it pretty hard to judge what is and isn't allowed. You want to get rid of the bigots, but on the other hand, you don't want to get the ones who legitimately just don't know/understand and say dumb shit because of that.

 

[Gaborn]

Honestly, having gone through all of this thread earlier today for modding purposes, I found it pretty hard to judge what is and isn't allowed. You want to get rid of the bigots, but on the other hand, you don't want to get the ones who legitimately just don't know/understand and say dumb shit because of that.

I can understand how it would be a difficult line to navigate. The last thing I want to do is stifle discussion because I think for some people with negative attitudes they can learn and become open minded. I know at least some posters have said as much in gay topics, that it has helped them to be more open minded.

I don't envy you your job and I think the mods do a great job on the whole. Long term I hope people scare quoting woman when referring to tg people gets phased out but obviously it wouldn't be fair at this point. People just need to try to see things from the other person's perspective. I understand that most people aren't exposed to TG people on a regular basis so it's hard to know what a hot button for them would be, but that seems like one that is kind of patently offensive.

But again, that's just my view and I'm not trying to tell you how to mod.