What is the advantage of buff/bubb?
I'm playing spring man cracker/sparky. I use cracker for pressure and sparky for counter hits off parries or errors. Not sure if I should switch.
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ARMS |OT| (-)-------------
- Thread starter Dandy Crocodile
- Start date
What is the advantage of buff/bubb?
I'm playing spring man cracker/sparky. I use cracker for pressure and sparky for counter hits off parries or errors. Not sure if I should switch.
Well, that's one way to wreck Headlok! Mechanica and well timed charged tribolts, dashing towards it takes it down fast. It gets stunned and when attacks, Mechanica's dash with no flinching ability completely overpowers it. That's on GP4, but guessing it's not going to be much different on the higher difficulties, even if it can read inputs and counter it can't really do anything. It's too slow to move (thanks to Max Brass) out the way compared to Mechanica's sliding dashes on the ground and air. This may work for Master Mummy too, but probably takes longer since he can't move into close proximity as fast. No flinching makes a huge difference.
Buff and Bubb when charged have larger hitboxes and do more damage than Sparky or Chilla. Toaster does the most damage overall (and knocks down when charged, which may or may not be something you want on your loadout). Apparently gloves all have identical speed though I haven't checked.
Buff has more of a curve to the throw and Bubb is a more direct path.
Nocturnowl
Member
I've found myself having a lot more luck when swapping my megawatt out for the thing with the horizontal triple shot.
It's like I'll play round one with Chilla and Megawatt on Min Min and as much as I try the evasive opponents just ain't ever getting caught by the heavy fist even if it plows through theirs because constant movement just seems too much for them.
Then I respond with triple shot and it's like the tables turn massively on the side shuffle happy.
Just a shame really that while the heavy arms have use I'm sure it's just not too often.
It's like I'll play round one with Chilla and Megawatt on Min Min and as much as I try the evasive opponents just ain't ever getting caught by the heavy fist even if it plows through theirs because constant movement just seems too much for them.
Then I respond with triple shot and it's like the tables turn massively on the side shuffle happy.
Just a shame really that while the heavy arms have use I'm sure it's just not too often.
My "default" build is Chakram/Megaton but against Min Min, Ribbon Girl, Barq and Byte, and maybe Ninjara (i've both wrecked and gotta crushed by Ninjaras with my default so I dunno) I have to switch it up to a multishot of some kind to help with them.
It is a shame but at the same time does kinda make sense that some characters with run circles around that thing. Megawatt and Megaton are the slowest and next-to-slowest arms in the game.
I do think there is the possibility to have a build like that that uses the heavy mostly as a shield and tries to do damage with a boomerang arm or something.
Buff (green) has auto aim that tries to keep manual curving minimised, Bubb (black) has no auto aim, but you can really wildly curve it anyway you want with it. Great for predicting side-steppers compared to Buff (green). Both are the same speed, both increase to the same size. I tested this in Vs just now, hah.
Interesting, thank you! I have used Buff a ton, and if that's minimized curving then Bubb's must be nuts! I can curve Buffs a ton. Haven't uesd Bubb much cause I don't have it unlocked on Ninjara but I will try it out real quick on whoever I do.
So I'm not the only one huh. It's was terrible. Spent THREE HOURS on that guy alone. I would out maneuver him and half of the time, when my punch was a sure hit he would do an instant charge to deflect it. There were also many matches where I would have him down to a sliver of health, and the healing bottle would spawn where he was. If We had sparky it wouldn't be so bad but it was a wild ride with his default ARMS. I beat him with the Boomerang and Toaster combo eventually.
I really like the Boomerang for keeping Headlok away from me AND important juice bottles when I can.
Ok just tested it a bit and I don't see the appeal.
The extra 10 charged damage isn't worth giving up stun and it's not like I'm missing hits because my gloves aren't big enough.
Like if I've got the hit with the Bubb, then I probably would have had it with the sparky too, and the throw/super setup is much more valuable.
Maybe it's different if you're not spring man, but the parry and perma charge when wounded really make electric gloves super good I feel.
Yeah you can start the curve pretty wide on Buff, but after that it tries to home in on the players current position by-itself. Bubb can start the curve wide too, but without any restriction afterwards on where you want to manually aim. It almost goes off screen if you try to curve it as much as you can when it reaches maximum range!
It's not so much the increased size helps for hitting the player, but for clipping any incoming attacks or throw attempts (very important!) from the other player increases them being unable to do anything for that split second while your fists are still hurtling towards them. You can play offensive at the same time as being defensive if your opponent has lighter arms.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Their wider hitbox is also for defensive purposes
I wouldn't have thought to use it either but I can't use ANY of them well. The gloves are tough for me and I feel like I don't really ever know how to handle Spring Man. I played with dual chakrams all the way through beating GP4 without switching loadout once. I am just getting around to trying every single Arm this afternoon for the first time.
Permacharged stun gloves sounds incredible for comebacks as Spring Man. Min Min's left arm also complicates builds a bit. I have barely tested the gloves and will soon.
This is all way above my skill level and theoretical to me- I still succeed mostly with Arms that are nowhere near the ones the top players are currently using.
If you take a look at this match: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/153496878?t=06m22s (which I found pretty fun to watch):
Jorpen is using Ram Ram on Min Min's left arm and Bubb, Lucifer's Cobra is double Bubb. Jorpen's pressure from the Ram Ram is too much for Lucifer's constant barrage of punches, though he successfully baits Jorpen into his Rush multiple times.
At the same time you can pretty clearly see how difficult Lucifer would be to handle and why he is going up against a rank 15 player. If it's true that Lucifer could be doing everything that he does here with Sparky and the +10 damage to landing a charged hit is not worthwhile for him, I have no idea.
Can anyone explain?
edit: Didn't think of that. The glove is medium of course, so the larger hitbox to punch through i.e. Poppers/Crackers/the multi-shot Arms and matching Boomerangs/Birds/Parasol is probably good to have for defensive purposes. Makes sense.
TheGoreMagala
Member
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327581836496732160/video.mov
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327581978578780162/video.mov
Did some (terribly unofficial) testing myself, since I feel things are much more noticeable when in Helix tower mode and alternating punches, and I feel it is fairly obvious that the toasters are either faster or recover better.
Hawkian is attempting to make a gif with both videos aligned and in sync and side to side
Looking at it, the toasters come back almost instantly while sparkies take longer to do so
If true then toasters are faster in terms of Fire rate/punches per second
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327581978578780162/video.mov
Did some (terribly unofficial) testing myself, since I feel things are much more noticeable when in Helix tower mode and alternating punches, and I feel it is fairly obvious that the toasters are either faster or recover better.
Hawkian is attempting to make a gif with both videos aligned and in sync and side to side
Looking at it, the toasters come back almost instantly while sparkies take longer to do so
If true then toasters are faster in terms of Fire rate/punches per second
TheGoddamn
Member
I agree that electric is far and away the superior element in a vacuum. Their stun duration is even longer online vs. offline, probably to compensate for lag. But I think that in general, those Arm types (regardless of element) are easily avoided in the current evasive meta. I'm only in Rank 8, and I rarely see Electric weapons used as Plan A and B arms. When was the last time you played Ranked?
Your debate might be a case of practice vs. theory. I'm more inclined to take stock in the word of Gore, an actual Rank 15 as opposed to someone who is a Rank 10 from however-many-days-ago who
This isn't even counting the number of fights that are needed to level up as the ranks go higher. And I say this who, as of ~12 hours ago, can beat Gore consistently.
Electric arms do mess me up because of their rarity (Seekies also explode even if I dodge them). But there has to be a reason why they aren't widely used. Maybe people haven't unlocked them yet? Maybe they really aren't viable? It's an interesting question. If you think that Electric arms just by their very nature will allow you to dominate at Ranked, then I'd appreciate it if you disrupted the high-level meta yourself and report back.
TheGoreMagala
Member
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327586377053110303/video.mov
Chilla
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327589410017116160/video.mov
Bubb
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327587731129630720/video.mov
Buff
Also here's Hawkian gif (due to my terribly unofficial and uneven format it's practically impossible to sync but you can view side by side):
https://i.imgur.com/SOwnenFh.jpg
I'll soon do a video with sparky and toaster in each hand
Also, my videos can only do about 15 seconds but I'll do my best to start punching at the same time and have the clock and see which gives more punches
I think the first two punches on the sparkles clip look like outliers, other then those first couple punches the animations look the same to me. You'd have to count the frames to be sure, but everything about the animations look like just a reskin.
Having watched the Jordan video hawked posted I can definitely see the appeal of the bubbs now. They look a lot bigger coming at you then when you're throwing them. But I don't necessarily think that makes them better on their own.
The players he fights in those matches are definitely throwing way more punches then me though. My style seems more like Jorpens in that video except replace min min and ram ram with spring man and cracker.
Edit: gore that link to the gif isn't working.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Try now?
Oh man, for jump charging I just realised after all this time that I don't need to hold jump to charge my fists, I just need to tap jump and as soon as I land, even from the shortest hop, they get charged. This means I can have my thumb over the dash button all ready to go as soon as I land, this changes things for me (using Pro and handheld mode) hah.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
YEAH! Took me a while to figure that one out too, that you don't have to hold Jump/Dash to charge, they stay charged, only for a few seconds after you release the buttons.
So just to be clear this is all pretty beyond me, I don't play even close to this level and can't claim to know why these people do what they do. This is all pretty rookie analysis but I tried my best. I tried Sparky and Buff at least and I can confirm they at least travel at the same speed. I don't know if anything else affects the rate at which you can throw additional punches.
For someone just learning the game the most compelling reason I have heard to choose one of the non-elemental gloves is that for defensive purposes the charged hitbox of the Buff/Bubb can block/punch through more than the others otherwise wouldin any case I'm sure they are both perfectly viable (if you can do well with them at all), where the trade-offs occur and what is eventually considered the best to the absolute highest rank players is not something I am likely to ever figure out without being told.
Here's a post on the merits of the non-elemental Arms: https://www.reddit.com/r/ARMS/comments/6i3bl1/attributeless_arm_appreciation_megaton_buff_bubb/
Anecdotally, I have found Megaton to be better than Megawatt after using both a TON, but I wouldn't have been able to say why for sure. I also thought the thing in there was true about Megaton gaining size and Megawatt not; the camera makes it really tough to tell. But I know that it felt like it did more damage and I was just, I dunno, able to hit more with it.
That and revolver have been about my extent of use with Electric so far, but I have learned there is some degree of nuance to the stun, and I think Ice is the same way:
In either of those cases that means a charged Electric hit did no more damage and offered limited additional utility; Coolerangs do additional damage on charge (there is no Electric boomerang to compare).
With Fire- you get significantly more damage, and the knockdown, well, the worst that can happens is that something that would have knocked them down anyway still knocks them down but does more damage. I have spent the least time with Wind and can't really comment on how it works.
I will also comment more generally on how "good" Electric is as an element, and all the elements, and all the Arms to some extent. It isn't bad, and none of them are bad really. Maybe Guardian.
I came totally around on Cracker after thinking Popper was better at first. Bubb is legitimately great and I've only started learning it.Meanwhile both Ice and Electric, especially against unskilled players, randoms, friends, etc the effect is going to fuck people up and make them panic and mash buttons. So you'll get a lot of mileage there either way.
Also, you can't judge elements for how valuable they are in a vacuum, you have to use the ones that are on the Arms available. You have to compare the value of its spot in your loadout to the other options in its class. Outside of Sparky and Megawatt we've been discussing, you have Revolver- which, if you get any more than one hit with, cancels out the stun effect without doing any more damage- or Retorcher, which does more damage, can hit twice without sacrificing its effect, and also can knockdown with just one hit. Thunderbird, which must be weighed against Phoenix- Phoenix doing 40 more damage and knocking down. Seekie, no idea really how it differs from Homie yet so I can't comment... and then Guardian?
You gotta pick the Arms that suit ya. Beyond that, we're talking about pretty minor tradeoffs for what is the absolute highest level of evolving play; the meta. I don't know what wins for their particular builds for what reasons on an individual basis but I do think the in-game description of Bubb is fascinating.
For 90% of the playerbase though, all of the Arms we've talked about basically seem "viable" and nothing really seems "broken." There are lots of really good Arm options to choose from and really interesting combinations you can make taking the characters' abilities into account.
In conclusion, my opinion is that Electric is definitely not bad, but then nothing really is, and tiny tiny variations from the perspective of the average player are what will determine the "top tier" for high level player.
If anything in this post is outright wrong let me know and I will try to figure out where I got tripped up.
For someone just learning the game the most compelling reason I have heard to choose one of the non-elemental gloves is that for defensive purposes the charged hitbox of the Buff/Bubb can block/punch through more than the others otherwise wouldin any case I'm sure they are both perfectly viable (if you can do well with them at all), where the trade-offs occur and what is eventually considered the best to the absolute highest rank players is not something I am likely to ever figure out without being told.
Here's a post on the merits of the non-elemental Arms: https://www.reddit.com/r/ARMS/comments/6i3bl1/attributeless_arm_appreciation_megaton_buff_bubb/
Anecdotally, I have found Megaton to be better than Megawatt after using both a TON, but I wouldn't have been able to say why for sure. I also thought the thing in there was true about Megaton gaining size and Megawatt not; the camera makes it really tough to tell. But I know that it felt like it did more damage and I was just, I dunno, able to hit more with it.
That and revolver have been about my extent of use with Electric so far, but I have learned there is some degree of nuance to the stun, and I think Ice is the same way:
- If it hits a target in the air its duration often runs out before a throw/rush can be landed which would be the primary use case
- If the electric weapon is the second hit of a two hit combo or otherwise results in a knockdown (if there are other ways), the full duration of the stun is used up in wakeup.
In either of those cases that means a charged Electric hit did no more damage and offered limited additional utility; Coolerangs do additional damage on charge (there is no Electric boomerang to compare).
With Fire- you get significantly more damage, and the knockdown, well, the worst that can happens is that something that would have knocked them down anyway still knocks them down but does more damage. I have spent the least time with Wind and can't really comment on how it works.
I will also comment more generally on how "good" Electric is as an element, and all the elements, and all the Arms to some extent. It isn't bad, and none of them are bad really. Maybe Guardian.
I came totally around on Cracker after thinking Popper was better at first. Bubb is legitimately great and I've only started learning it.Meanwhile both Ice and Electric, especially against unskilled players, randoms, friends, etc the effect is going to fuck people up and make them panic and mash buttons. So you'll get a lot of mileage there either way. Also, you can't judge elements for how valuable they are in a vacuum, you have to use the ones that are on the Arms available. You have to compare the value of its spot in your loadout to the other options in its class. Outside of Sparky and Megawatt we've been discussing, you have Revolver- which, if you get any more than one hit with, cancels out the stun effect without doing any more damage- or Retorcher, which does more damage, can hit twice without sacrificing its effect, and also can knockdown with just one hit. Thunderbird, which must be weighed against Phoenix- Phoenix doing 40 more damage and knocking down. Seekie, no idea really how it differs from Homie yet so I can't comment... and then Guardian?
You gotta pick the Arms that suit ya. Beyond that, we're talking about pretty minor tradeoffs for what is the absolute highest level of evolving play; the meta. I don't know what wins for their particular builds for what reasons on an individual basis but I do think the in-game description of Bubb is fascinating.
For 90% of the playerbase though, all of the Arms we've talked about basically seem "viable" and nothing really seems "broken." There are lots of really good Arm options to choose from and really interesting combinations you can make taking the characters' abilities into account.
In conclusion, my opinion is that Electric is definitely not bad, but then nothing really is, and tiny tiny variations from the perspective of the average player are what will determine the "top tier" for high level player.
If anything in this post is outright wrong let me know and I will try to figure out where I got tripped up.
I think Spring Man's deflect ability is more useful at high level play then Twintelle's time slow. Better then blocking if you can do it consistently, which isn't that hard to do (release dash button during any animation frame of your dash fists charging). It even stops fully charged Megatons dead and wide throws, you don't flinch or wait for any recovery and it leaves them wide open to a counter. I like this! >
Didn't like the regular dragon. I'd rather freeze an enemy than burn them. Ramram seems OK for getting around things, but it seems easy to miss too. Definitely more of a finesse weapon.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Holy crap that was amazing
Poltergust
Member
Stun.
Not sure how true this is but I've read before that stun resets the amount of times you get hit before you get knocked down. It might good for pressure and just racking up damage.
Poltergust
Member
So you can throw a left punch with Bubb and then throw a right one with a Stun ARM and it won't knock them down?
EDIT: Nope, doesn't work. The stun hit knocks down.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Dead. Holy shit lol.
AquaWateria
Member
Holy fuck this was amazing lol.
The Xtortionist
Member
Are there any good uses for block parrying (dash after blocking)? Even with the deflect the opponent can still recover and start moving too fast to punish.
*shrug* The chakram is one of my favorite weapons, but yeah, it's only on two other weapons which don't seem to have much use.
TheGoreMagala
Member
More testing!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327616397570211840/video.mov
This is one on each hand, near the end I threw both arms fast as I could starting with different ones first. Admittedly there's one input I obviously messed up but notice when toaster is first Sparky never catches up but when Sparky is first toaster catches up and they merge.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327617922887319552/video.mov
Sparky punches 11 times in ten seconds.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327619518899814400/video.mov
Toaster punches 12 times in ten seconds.
So sparky fires at 66 punches per minute while toaster fires at 72 punches per minute (both of which roughly). Not that punches per minute is determined by alternating punches, not throwing two at the same time.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327616397570211840/video.mov
This is one on each hand, near the end I threw both arms fast as I could starting with different ones first. Admittedly there's one input I obviously messed up but notice when toaster is first Sparky never catches up but when Sparky is first toaster catches up and they merge.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327617922887319552/video.mov
Sparky punches 11 times in ten seconds.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327295554361098251/327619518899814400/video.mov
Toaster punches 12 times in ten seconds.
So sparky fires at 66 punches per minute while toaster fires at 72 punches per minute (both of which roughly). Not that punches per minute is determined by alternating punches, not throwing two at the same time.
BravesCountry
Banned
I found it somewhat useful in closing the distance between myself and a player trying to stay long range, and if used sparingly it can take an opponent by surprise.
polyh3dron
Banned
please.... UNDERSTAND!
Got "perfected" by a CPU Twintelle. Started button-spamming furiously after that and figured out that my issues with her were about keeping her long-range. She'd beat the hell out of me if i got too close.
Adding a Retorcher to Min Min's loadout made her quite usable for me.
Now to take a few days off and learn some more advanced techs before moving to GP4. I'll test with:
Byte and Barq
Master Mummy
Mechanica
Min Min
Ninjara
Twintelle
See who really works well.
Adding a Retorcher to Min Min's loadout made her quite usable for me.
Now to take a few days off and learn some more advanced techs before moving to GP4. I'll test with:
Byte and Barq
Master Mummy
Mechanica
Min Min
Ninjara
Twintelle
See who really works well.
Not bothering with online today, just going to try to get my practice with Min Min on GP5. Obviously got Ninjara first. Trying to rock the Megawatt on the left and Dragon on the right and just getting my ass handed to me. I'm being far too sloppy, but Ninjara is so slippery. Since I used him for my GP4 run, I haven't had to deal with the CPU til now.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Extra test notes:
Chilla is 13 punches in 10 seconds, about 78 PPM
Bubb is 10/11 punches in 10 seconds but I'm leaning toward 10, so 60 PPM - 66 PPM
Buff is most definitely 11 punches in 10 seconds so tied with sparky at 66 PPM
Chilla is 13 punches in 10 seconds, about 78 PPM
Bubb is 10/11 punches in 10 seconds but I'm leaning toward 10, so 60 PPM - 66 PPM
Buff is most definitely 11 punches in 10 seconds so tied with sparky at 66 PPM
I'm honestly surprised the elemental types are different speeds.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Granted the per minute estimation is roughly based on what I squeezed in ten seconds, which I go by the in game clock and I count a last second and/or punch in motion as well since in skillshot or a match time out you can still control a punch in motion and it could make the difference. I've recorded the sparky and the toaster above so you see what I do.
For a basis poppers seem to be 14/15 in 10, roughly 84/90 PPM
In retrospect it would make sense that the strongest and the fastest boxing gloves are two different gloves
Electric types have the slowest speeds I believe. Even the Megawatt is a bit slower than Megaton.
TheGoreMagala
Member
If anyone wants me to test out a glove let me know.
Dark Ninja
Member
Man are we getting Amiibos for this game? How about some replica Min Min shoes.
Cracker, please and thank you. So is popper the fastest glove in the game?
Also I wonder about revolver/retorcher- specifically their time from activation to max distance of the first shell. I suspect that might be the fastest "time to contact," but that would require a different testing methodology.
I wonder if people will be able to get frame data like in other fighting games. To me it seems like there's like a global cooldown present between all actions, jump/dash/punch/whatever. And opportunities come from getting in between your opponents actions. Before today I assumed the three arm weights had common speeds to play around the global cooldown in a more Rock Paper Scissors Dash Jump Punch kind of way. I'd be interested in seeing actual frame data (if it's possible in a game like this) just to see if there is like a general balance through line.
But like Hawkians post above I think a lot of it seems preference based ATM which I think is a good thing. Im low rank and I haven't run into anything as strong as poppers helix, but I have seen people attempting to tower spam with other arms. Thanks to this thread I've been able to counter them with ram rams.
TheGoreMagala
Member
I haven't tested them out but it's the fastest I've tested from my sample size