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Bamco: Wii and DS market has "prolapsed"

Gnub said:
Remember Nintendo's seal of approval? What ever happened to that?
The one that certified that games would be generally bug and glitch-free? The one that allowed Total Recall, Bart vs. the Space Mutants, 8-eyes, and every LJN game ever to come out?

Functionally it's still in place. In the sense that you're implying it means, it never existed.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Gnub said:
Remember Nintendo's seal of approval? What ever happened to that?

The seal of quality was never about "quality" as a user would define it. It just meant that the game was officially licensed by Nintendo and had passed the most basic quality tests, like being devoid of any game-breaking bug.

There were loads of crappy "seal of quality" games on the NES.

[EDIT] Segata, your justice is too swift.
 

stuminus3

Member
The problem is that there's no version of Pac-man CE available on Wii or DS.

Which is pretty fucking stupid, if you ask me.
 

Dave Long

Banned
I honestly can't remember the last Bandai-Namco game I bought. It was probably an iteration of Tekken or Soul Calibur, but seriously, the whole company pretty much jumped the shark after PlayStation. Even the PS2 era wasn't that great.
 

Dave Long

Banned
Edge picked up this story now. I'm sure it's going to become a given fact within the next five or six hours.

Sell your stock! It's all over for Nintendo!
 
Dave Long said:
I honestly can't remember the last Bandai-Namco game I bought. It was probably an iteration of Tekken or Soul Calibur, but seriously, the whole company pretty much jumped the shark after PlayStation. Even the PS2 era wasn't that great.
Retro Game Challenge and its sequel are pretty good! Also, in the PS2 era they had Katamari Damacy, which was really all they had to do for me. So hey, three games, two of which they didn't localize. Hm.

I guess I liked the PSP Ridge Racer a fair bit too, at least.
 
TheGreatDave said:
I don't see what's wrong with having an R4, there's no reason at all to assume it's related to piracy. Publishers looking for excuses as usual.
On this board you're probably right... Other places, I think that if someone owns an R4 or has modded their Wii, they don't tend to pay for any games they can pirate. Conversely, I think that someone who pirates a hundred games a year, if they didn't have the opportunity to pirate, they'd buy 2-4, and rent a few along the way each year. Hopefully Nintendo can patch things up with the 3DS and the WiiHD enough to prevent casual piracy.
 

kinggroin

Banned
I take every single one of these negative developer/publisher comments concerning the Wii market to mean that next-gen party, it'll be a very short guest list as far as support goes.
 

Dave Long

Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
Retro Game Challenge and its sequel are pretty good! Also, in the PS2 era they had Katamari Damacy, which was really all they had to do for me. So hey, three games, two of which they didn't localize. Hm.

I guess I liked the PSP Ridge Racer a fair bit too, at least.
I really need to get Retro Game Challenge.

I was thinking about it and Ridge Racer 6, Pac-Man Championship Edition and Klonoa for Wii are about all the Bamco I've bought in the last few years. I got the Museum for 360 for like $10 at Toys R Us, too.

Their main line offerings don't do a whole lot for me though. As much as I enjoy fighting games, there's so much negativity around Soul Calibur IV and Tekken 6 that I can't get too excited for them. Beyond that, Fragile and Sky Crawlers are things I'd like to play but they didn't even publish Sky Crawlers here.

I guess I'm just not sure what they're bitching about on Wii and DS. What have they shipped that's good other than Fragile, which people have found things to complain about too? The things posted in this thread don't inspire confidence and in fact lump Bamco into the group of companies they're complaining about who release crap?
 

spookyfish

Member
Plumbob said:
>Bunch of covers of crap Wii games published by Bandai/Namco<

Hmm...

No, it's all right — it was BANDAI that wanted those. Namco, however, was actually firmly opposed to them. So there's no conflict of interest in that asinine statement whatsoever.
 

Safe Bet

Banned
BertramCooper said:
I can't wait until Epic Mickey does gangbusters and makes these other idiotic third parties feel extra stupid.
It's fucking Mickey Mouse dude....

That alone should sell a few million copies.
 
Dave Long said:
Their main line offerings don't do a whole lot for me though. As much as I enjoy fighting games, there's so much negativity around Soul Calibur IV and Tekken 6 that I can't get too excited for them. Beyond that, Fragile and Sky Crawlers are things I'd like to play but they didn't even publish Sky Crawlers here.

The problem with Namco fighting games is that they have a pretty good core engine but they slap on tonnes of utterly worthless bullshit. Tekken 6's campaign mode is probably the ultimate low. SC4 is better in this regard, so you should try it out.
 

WillyFive

Member
BertramCooper said:
I can't wait until Epic Mickey does gangbusters and makes these other idiotic third parties feel extra stupid.

It didn't make a difference with past games, won't make a difference with this one.
 

Dave Long

Banned
Pureauthor said:
The problem with Namco fighting games is that they have a pretty good core engine but they slap on tonnes of utterly worthless bullshit. Tekken 6's campaign mode is probably the ultimate low. SC4 is better in this regard, so you should try it out.
A friend of mine is having a 3D fighting games tournament this summer, so I'll have to get Tekken 6 and Soul Calibur IV soon since they're part of it. Agreed on the worthless bullshit. Those massive single player modes don't excite me so much anymore, probably because they're kinda crappy and usually do nothing to make you a better competitive player...

Also, Star Wars characters in fighting games really turn me off. Create some more originals instead.
 

Raist

Banned
Yeah, Namco might not be the most relevant when it comes to sales...
Not sure he's 100% wrong tho. If you look at Europe, it's quite striking how charts that used to be completely dominated by Wii/DS a year ago are now overloaded with PS360 games.
 

Jokeropia

Member
Raist said:
If you look at Europe, it's quite striking how charts that used to be completely dominated by Wii/DS a year ago are now overloaded with PS360 games.
Looks to me like they're still on top for total sales, though.

22l.jpg
 

Dave Long

Banned
charlequin said:
You do. It's incredible.
I keep telling myself that I need to plow through more of my backlog of DS games before buying another one, but you guys who have similar tastes to my own always push me over the edge. :)

I had it in my hand when I was at the Fry's in Indianapolis over Memorial Day. They only wanted $15! Then I caved and put it back when my son was begging for Volume 2 of the Pokemon HG/SS hint book which was the same price.

Now I'm back in PA. No Fry's!
 

Opiate

Member
Jokeropia said:
Looks to me like they're still on top for total sales, though.

22l.jpg

Less on top than they were a year prior, though.

Many proponents of the Wii have pointed out that the Wii's decline mirrors a normal, natural decline as a gaming product ages, and that's fair from an historical perspective. But if we agree to that, then we also have to agree that the 360 and PS3 are freakishly longstanding systems: neither has shown any significant decline, despite the fact that the 360 is a year older than the Wii. The 360 was down ~5% YoY last year, while the PS3 was up enormously, and is projected to go up again.

So you can phrase it one of two ways: the Wii is a normal system while the PS3 and 360 are built to sell far longer than a normal system, or the PS3 and 360 are normal systems while the Wii has a short lifespan.
 

Raist

Banned
Jokeropia said:
Looks to me like they're still on top for total sales, though.

22l.jpg

So after the number of titles charting, we are now only considering total sales?
That's fine and all, but weekly charts have shown a progressive (and steep) decline lately.
Plus these figures don't really help Wii's image for third parties (which is Namco's concern. I'm not sure they give a shit whether Nintendo titles are successful) as 5 games out of 7 are from Ninty.
 
Raist said:
So after the number of titles charting, we are now only considering total sales?
That's fine and all, but weekly charts have shown a progressive (and steep) decline lately.
Plus these figures don't really help Wii's image for third parties (which is Namco's concern. I'm not sure they give a shit whether Nintendo titles are successful) as 5 games out of 7 are from Ninty.
Across all platforms, though, 0 out of 30 are Bandai Namco.
 

freddy

Banned
Fuck my curiosity and all the people that mentioned google search in here


Oh yea... Namco talking about quality..yea
 

Jokeropia

Member
Opiate said:
Less on top than they were a year prior, though.

Many proponents of the Wii have pointed out that the Wii's decline mirrors a normal, natural decline as a gaming product ages, and that's fair from an historical perspective. But if we agree to that, then we also have to agree that the 360 and PS3 are freakishly longstanding systems: neither has shown any significant decline, despite the fact that the 360 is a year older than the Wii. The 360 was down ~5% YoY last year, while the PS3 was up enormously, and is projected to go up again.

So you can phrase it one of two ways: the Wii is a normal system while the PS3 and 360 are built to sell far longer than a normal system, or the PS3 and 360 are normal systems while the Wii has a short lifespan.
360 Calendar Year shipments
(2005-11-22 - 2005-12-31): 1500K
(2005-12-31 - 2006-12-31): 8900K
(2006-12-31 - 2007-12-31): 7300K
(2007-12-31 - 2008-12-31): 10800K
(2008-12-31 - 2009-12-31): 10200K

PS3 Calendar Year Shipments
(2006-11-11 - 2006-12-31): 1700K
(2006-12-31 - 2007-12-31): 8700K
(2007-12-31 - 2008-12-31): 10700K
(2008-12-31 - 2009-12-31): 12400K

Wii Calendar Year Shipments
(2006-11-19 - 2006-12-31): 3190K
(2006-12-31 - 2007-12-31): 16940K
(2007-12-31 - 2008-12-31): 24830K
(2008-12-31 - 2009-12-31): 22490K

Both 360 and PS3 follows slightly untypical curves, 360 experienced it's first decline in year 3, but increased again the next and then decreased again the following. This could be explained by factors such as overshipment in year 2 and the global recession in year 5, potentially obscuring the natural curve. Likewise, the Wii's drop in year 4 could be related to the global recession as well. PS3 experienced a late boost with PS3 slim in year 4 which threw the initial curve off target. It's difficult to say what these curves would've looked like in a vacuum, but even if Wii does have an earlier peak it doesn't give it a shorter lifespan since it would require a much steeper drop to actually fall behind the competition.
Raist said:
So after the number of titles charting, we are now only considering total sales?
Total sales is what determines the health of a market, yes.
 

donny2112

Member
Opiate said:
Many proponents of the Wii have pointed out that the Wii's decline mirrors the prolonged affects of being nearly completely ignored by third-parties in the worldwide marketplace.

Fixed, and I agree with those proponents.

Wii is declining earlier than it should have primarily due to third-parties and Nintendo still recovering from 2nd half 2008 and 1st half 2009 (i.e. opening the doors for third-parties and they didn't want to enter) being pretty barren for big 1st-party titles. Again this gen, Japan became an early barometer for the rest of the world. Lack of third-party support there hurt earlier than anywhere else, but it's now hurting elsewhere, too. As Jokeropia so aptly pointed out, though, a "hurting" Wii is still well above the PS3 or 360. Those systems aren't following the "normal" curve mainly because prices took so long (and aren't completely there, yet, for PS3) to reach the traditional "mass market" price of $200 or less.

Opiate said:
the PS3 and 360 are built to sell far longer than a normal system because they started off priced way too high

Fixed, and yes.
 

J-Rock

Banned
Future said:
Wii is insanely successful. So when companies make games for it and they don't do well, it's their jobs to make excuses.

One of the other big excuses is with content. The majority of the industry treats the Wii like the "family" system. Nintendo has played a role in that too. Here's the thing though, currently most developers are interested in creating games that are darker or games that feature a lot of adult content(violence, sexual themes, etc.). That just doesn't mix well with a console that has been pushed into a corner and deemed "the family console". Here's a recent Konami statement that surprised me...





Castlevania: Lords of Shadow producer Dave Cox said:
“…The reason we didn’t do Wii or DS, or anything else like that, is because we wanted to bring it into the mainstream. And in many ways mainstream gaming is Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. We didn’t want to do a family friendly version. This is a pretty dark game and just wouldn’t work on the Nintendo systems.”


Crazy when you think about the sales of the Wii/DS and that the Castlevania series started on a Nintendo console.
 
J-Rock said:
One of the other big excuses is with content. The majority of the industry treats the Wii like the "family" system. Nintendo has played a role in that too. Here's the thing though, currently most developers are interested in creating games that are darker or games that feature a lot of adult content(violence, sexual themes, etc.). That just doesn't mix well with a console that has been pushed into a corner and deemed "the family console". Here's a recent Konami statement that surprised me...








Crazy when you think about the sales of the Wii/DS and that the Castlevania series started on a Nintendo console.

And that there have been, what? Three Castlevania games on the DS already?
Sounds like Konami just making more excuses...
 
J-Rock said:
Crazy when you think about the sales of the Wii/DS and that the Castlevania series started on a Nintendo console.
Crazy also when you consider that the series has also been on DS since God-knows-when.

I'm thinking they just wanted to play with the big boys and have glitter and spectacle and shit and the Wii/DS just didn't cut it.
 

Sadist

Member
So Castlevania being on 360/PS3 now makes it "mainstream".

Hur hur. Just tell you don't want to work with underpowered hardware.
 

J-Rock

Banned
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Crazy also when you consider that the series has also been on DS since God-knows-when.

I'm thinking they just wanted to play with the big boys and have glitter and spectacle and shit and the Wii/DS just didn't cut it.

Pretty much. Within the industry, hell most industries, working with the latest greatest tech is what people prefer. The Wii and DS don't really fit into that. It's a shame considering the control innovations those two systems have helped to develope.
 

Boney

Banned
Dave Cox is not actually from Konami, but Mercury Steam right? Because if I were Konami I wouldn't want people that stupid as my PR people.
 
Boney said:
Dave Cox is not actually from Konami, but Mercury Steam right? Because if I were Konami I wouldn't want people that stupid as my PR people.

Doesn't really matter where he's from, though.
In this interview he is representing Konami, and making them look stupid.
 

Boney

Banned
AceBandage said:
Doesn't really matter where he's from, though.
In this interview he is representing Konami, and making them look stupid.
Well yeah, but that's not what he is hired to do. (is he?)
So it's kinda different.
 

hatchx

Banned
BertramCooper said:
I can't wait until Epic Mickey does gangbusters and makes these other idiotic third parties feel extra stupid.


gangbusters huh....


I don't expect it to make top ten NPD. Quite frankly the game looks like crap and sounds overly ambitious, and the rumors of a graphics overhaul don't put me at ease.
 

donny2112

Member
hatchx said:
gangbusters huh....


I don't expect it to make top ten NPD. Quite frankly the game looks like crap and sounds overly ambitious, and the rumors of a graphics overhaul don't put me at ease.

What matters is

1) True mainstream property on the true mainstream console
2) Disney will be putting out tons of advertising
3) Holiday seller

If the game is better than average, all the better. Those three alone should guarantee some significant sales (e.g. > 1 million probably just in 2010), if Disney can convince retailers to carry the stock (which shouldn't be too hard, but is an unknown).
 
Plumbob said:

Can't speak for those other games, but this game is surprisingly very good. I too thought it was just shovelware at first but it's a game that some time has been put into making and is fun to play.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
donny2112 said:
Fixed, and I agree with those proponents.

Wii is declining earlier than it should have primarily due to third-parties and Nintendo still recovering from 2nd half 2008 and 1st half 2009 (i.e. opening the doors for third-parties and they didn't want to enter) being pretty barren for big 1st-party titles. Again this gen, Japan became an early barometer for the rest of the world. Lack of third-party support there hurt earlier than anywhere else, but it's now hurting elsewhere, too. As Jokeropia so aptly pointed out, though, a "hurting" Wii is still well above the PS3 or 360. Those systems aren't following the "normal" curve mainly because prices took so long (and aren't completely there, yet, for PS3) to reach the traditional "mass market" price of $200 or less.



Fixed, and yes.
I think one of the biggest issues is that third parties really like to play follow the leader, making games primarily in genres that the console maker has shown are viable on the platform.

Back in the PS1 era, Sony decided to heavily push JRPGs, platformers, and racing games, and third parties ended up making major entries in these genres all the way through the PlayStation 2.

When Microsoft entered the console race, they wanted to bring Western PC style games with them. To this end, they released Halo and Fable/KotOR, which lead to a large increase in the number of FPS games and WRPGs on the system. When the Xbox 360 came out, Microsoft really pushed Gears of War, and suddenly we saw a huge amount of cover based third person shooters join the large amount of first person shooters and the notable amount of WRPGs. When Sony decided to do the same with the PS3, largely pushing FPS and TPS games, this just reinforced the genre decisions made by Microsoft, and now it's quite hard to find a major third party game at E3 that doesn't have a gun in it.

With the Wii, Nintendo's major hits were Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Mario Kart, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros Brawl, and Zelda. And now, when we look at what few games third parties are making for the system, they're largely making minigame compilations, fitness games, kart racers, and platformers, with the amount of entries in each genre tending to correlate to the sales of the corresponding Nintendo title. As for why there aren't really any SSBB or Zelda like games on the platform from third parties, my guess would be that the former requires a large cast of notable characters which many third parties lack and that it's most likely quite hard to make a Zelda like game with a reduced risk budget and have it still come out alright.

What the top third party developers really do best this generation is make first/third person shooters, RPGs, and action/adventure games (mostly of the hack and slash, open world, and survival horror varieties), almost all of which are M rated. Unless Nintendo is willing to make or really push a game in one of these genres (ESRB rating included) and get it to sell 3-4+ million copies, we're really not going to see the best third party teams making games for the Wii.

Now, there is actually one case where they're doing this, and that's with JRPGs. They managed to secure and (presumably will) really push Dragon Quest X, and they are also publishing two smaller scale JRPGs themselves. However, the issue here is that they really went and did this far too late, because most third parties really don't want to put out games in these genres until after the major title has established the audience, and Dragon Quest X is really coming out far too late in the generation to help.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
farnham said:
does nintendo still own share in bandai like they used to ?
I don't see what this pertains to but at the very least they aren't one of the Top 10 shareholders anymore.
 

donny2112

Member
Nirolak said:
I think one of the biggest issues is that third parties really like to play follow the leader, making games primarily in genres that the console maker has shown are viable on the platform.

D'oh! Maybe third-parties should just try doing what they're good at and putting on the market leader console regardless of whether the first-party publisher does the same. Nintendo created the playground. Bring your own toys to play with. I guess technically that's a "risky" strategy ("They didn't pave the way for us! Oh noes!"), but it's a stupid easy "risk." AT LEAST that's a better excuse than the "can't show our vision" and "no gamers on Wii" excuses.

In that regard, Wii 2 will be no different. Wii 2 won't suddenly have Halo/Gears type games from Nintendo, so third-parties better have learned this generation not to be that stupid again. :lol
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
donny2112 said:
D'oh! Maybe third-parties should just try doing what they're good at and putting on the market leader console regardless of whether the first-party publisher does the same. Nintendo created the playground. Bring your own toys to play with. I guess technically that's a "risky" strategy ("They didn't pave the way for us! Oh noes!"), but it's a stupid easy "risk." AT LEAST that's a better excuse than the "can't show our vision" and "no gamers on Wii" excuses.

In that regard, Wii 2 will be no different. Wii 2 won't suddenly have Halo/Gears type games from Nintendo, so third-parties better have learned this generation not to be that stupid again. :lol
Well, the biggest issue is that Microsoft and Sony are so willing to placate third parties that they feel fine about not making their major core games for Wii audience.

However, the good news for Nintendo is that they don't actually need to make a Halo/Gears type game themselves, they just need to back it.

If Nintendo threw $20 million at Take-Two to make Max Payne 4 a first year Wii 2 title, they would probably do it. If the game released in the Wii 2's first post launch holiday and managed to sell 2-3 million copies worldwide, you would likely see a lot of third parties start to follow suit and try making their traditional first/third person shooters for the platform.

However, since I have a really hard time envisioning Nintendo doing that, I imagine the Wii 2 will have the same third party situation we see on the Wii, assuming there is still a notable gap in hardware power.

Given the success some third parties have found in the casual market on the Wii though, we will most likely see much stronger third party casual efforts on the Wii 2 early in its lifespan.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I've seen more whining, complaining, and just out and out stupidity from 3rd parties this generation than all previous generations combined.

You fucked up. Major. Now do something about it.

Tales of Graces would be a good starting point. Tales of Innocence and Tales of Hearts would be another good starting point.
 
Nirolak said:
Well, the biggest issue is that Microsoft and Sony are so willing to placate third parties that they feel fine about not making their major core games for Wii audience.
Because without 3rd party support, they'll die a rapid death.
 

Cipherr

Member
If Nintendos next console is again the market leader sharewise between the three and third parties again dont support it, the dev house bodycount will be massive. Its been tremendous this gen, I dont even want to consider what would happen next gen if there were a repeat.
 
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