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Bill Burr and Nia discuss ways to deal with sexism/homophobia
- Thread starter loki 16
- Start date
I think Bill is a funny dude, but I know better than to take him seriously on social issues. This is how I feel whenever I hear Bill's line of bullshit:
When historically oppressed people suggest talking shit out with assholes, it's magnanimous. You don't have to do that, but it's cool that you're willing.
When it's members of the group in power suggesting it, it feels like they're just scared they're gonna eventually get unfairly treated like shit and they're trying to stay ahead of the curve.
Well, welcome to existence, Bill. Try not to be a dick and you'll probably enjoy your stay.
When historically oppressed people suggest talking shit out with assholes, it's magnanimous. You don't have to do that, but it's cool that you're willing.
When it's members of the group in power suggesting it, it feels like they're just scared they're gonna eventually get unfairly treated like shit and they're trying to stay ahead of the curve.
Well, welcome to existence, Bill. Try not to be a dick and you'll probably enjoy your stay.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Maybe all the vile insults his wife get in the comments will make him realize what kind of scum he attracts with his content.
Probably not.
The important thing might be to take a minute ("waste some time") to try and gauge how worth it you think talking to a person might be, rather than apply a universal "ignore all / talk to all people I think are bigots"
The person who asked that stupid intro question can be ignored though.
The person who asked that stupid intro question can be ignored though.
Like someone else said, look at the youtube comments.
I'm always annoyed that a woman or a marginalized group is labeled as irate when literally 9 times out of 10 we try to cordially have conversations, and it gets nowhere. So, if my tone changes one octave after several degrading comments or conversations, so be it. Being told to do something that we're already doing is grating, Bill's suggestion is completely redundant.
And it's an extremely unfair burden for marginalized to always put on the hat of an educator; unpaid at that.
I'm always annoyed that a woman or a marginalized group is labeled as irate when literally 9 times out of 10 we try to cordially have conversations, and it gets nowhere. So, if my tone changes one octave after several degrading comments or conversations, so be it. Being told to do something that we're already doing is grating, Bill's suggestion is completely redundant.
And it's an extremely unfair burden for marginalized to always put on the hat of an educator; unpaid at that.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Thing is Bill Burr is mostly referring to the massive injustice faced by ESPN Anchors and Mark fucking Cuban, how in the hell is anybody supposed to take what he says seriously when the first thing you need to solve those problems "like adults" is access to extremely wealthy elites so in order to shield them from accusations of thinking something awful?
Most of the horrid shit I see these days is hidden behind anonymous internet handles. Can't do anything Bill suggests there, either.
So now I have to think about his 1/10 scenario when I run into a flesh and blood human being that is spewing putrid invective and weigh the kind of change I can make in them vs. just getting on with my life because that's all any target of such speech really wants to do?
Bill lives in a fucking fantasy world if he thinks he's actually dispensing practical advice on this matter.
I think by default people are already willing to talk it out with others, in person, if they think someone reasonable is on the other end. That seems like a rare occurrence though and most of the garbage occurs online today where trying to talk to someone is useless in maybe 99 / 100 cases. I'm not sure which means, but if he expects people to try to have some discourse via youtube comments with 1488Patriot then he's talking nonsense.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Well the whole snippet of the podcast kicks off because Burr doesn't like Mia calling out a random internet question as stupid, homophobic, sexist garbage and he feels like mansplaining it to her that no there's something deeper here that we can solve and it's her that's not helping.
Maybe there's more history to it than that and they've discussed this exact topic under different contexts before, but Burr's so full of shit here it's spilling out of my monitor.
Yeah he clearly had to switch to other examples asap because if that entire conversation was centred on "guy asking if you would rather have a ho daughter or gay son" then lol.
There was a famous study a year or two back where this group of social scientists had claimed they had perfected a conversation to change the minds and prejudices of people, what seemed like a break through turned out to be a bunch of data they had faked. The people who found the fraud decided to start all over again, and research was conducted properly this time using the same methods. They used a modified version of the deep canvassing technique that political campaigners use, long story short it was effective.
https://nyti.ms/1S5EhVg
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6282/220
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
Not trying to thread shit; but how do you guys listen to this for more than a few minutes? Bill Burr is a good comedian.. but it's strange to me he also makes a living readng emails with his 3rd grade reading level and doofusy random comments. Someone send Burr some hooked on phonics.
Psychoward
Banned
I like burr but sometimes he misses the mark when it comes to this sort of stuff. Didn't watch the full 25 minutes to be fair but this is one of those moments where I feel he doesn't get it.
JustAnotherMike
Member
That's part of the hook. I've haven't listened in a while, but some of the best stuff is him reading or breaking down the ad reads that don't make sense to him.
Boss Mog
Member
You're honestly asking this on GAF? A place where people have said time and time again that they shun family members that don't share their views.
MWS Natural
Member
Talk about a shitty ass comments section wow....like literally every single comment is either homophobic, racist or sexist.
paperboywriter
Member
I really don't get burr as an comedian.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
That's a much better way of saying it and is understandable.
Same.
I think Bill burr is a piece of shit asshole who gets too much credit for being self aware and playing devil's advocate when really he's just airing his own idiotic racist sexist beliefs behind the specter of free speech which every asshole utilizes to justify their actions and ignorant opinions.
PJV3
Member
They're really odd, I listened to what sounded like a normal couple having fun trying to wind each other up, the comments make it sound like she was some terrible harpy.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Man I should get back to listening to his podcast, I remember Bill being hilarious when he was giving love advice
I'm new be nice
Member
Bill Burr is completely right.
You can't change people's minds by defaulting to insults. It's hard enough getting people to listen to you (and vice versa) as it is, the moment you take that direction you guarantee no progress.
If you legitimately want to have change you have to learn to listen, and find common ground. Show that you are listening to their points, repeating them back to them with questions so that they know that you are taking their thoughts into consideration. More often than not you should be asking them why they think the way they do, if they think that it's truly fair, if they think that they've really considered things from other angles. Ask questions.
In fact, conversations shouldn't really contain "pointed" remarks, but should be a dialogue where you are both actually trying to learn and understand something new. Give people credit, statistically the average IQ has continued to rise, statistically the world has never seen a more peaceful period, statistically there has never been less poverty in the world. The world, other than the environment and some bumps along the way, has been steadily improving since WW2.
Yes, you shouldn't technically have to dedicate your time to it, but a lot of things in life are like that. Maturity, I think, is often marked by the ability to take on responsibilities, whether that be parental or communal. It's the point where you change from an individual to a citizen of a society, with all the protective and tyrannical elements that that contains.
When I came out 10 years ago I watched the people in my rural community, through interactions with myself and others who came out, change and evolve. I didn't shame anyone for holding their beliefs, and when someone said something homophobic around me without knowing I was gay, rather than insult and belittle them I merely continued to live my life justly and honestly, and I feel that they came to understand that things aren't exactly the way they originally thought.
We've made a lot of progress here in the West, it's easy to get cynical, and for good reasons honestly. But it's important to remember that we got where we are by having open conversations about our feelings. Sometimes those conversations can be unpleasant, but it's that ability to speak freely that defines our society as a place many wish to live in still to this day.
It's easy to say "those people should just hide in the shadows" and think that that's the solution, but let me tell you, I know the difference between someone being nice to me because they have to, and someone being nice to me because they want to.
If you don't want to dedicate the energy to having these difficult conversations, no worries, everyone's life is filled with different obstacles and it can be hard to find the time, but calling for people's jobs, trying to destroy their lives, that's not going to change their hearts. It only fuels more resentment.
This is a sentiment I have found great difficulty getting across on this forum in more recent years, people on the left have seemed to become incredibly resentful, understandably. But think about that for a moment. Resentment creating more resentment. When does it end? Am I suppose to continue to live in resentment over the seclusion I faced throughout my youth? The years of loneliness? I've been down that road, it only leads to more alienation. The most effective strategy, time after time after time this last decade has always been to forgive, and offer a hand, and to move on if it is cast away, perhaps for the next individual to try at it in their passing.
You can't change people's minds by defaulting to insults. It's hard enough getting people to listen to you (and vice versa) as it is, the moment you take that direction you guarantee no progress.
If you legitimately want to have change you have to learn to listen, and find common ground. Show that you are listening to their points, repeating them back to them with questions so that they know that you are taking their thoughts into consideration. More often than not you should be asking them why they think the way they do, if they think that it's truly fair, if they think that they've really considered things from other angles. Ask questions.
In fact, conversations shouldn't really contain "pointed" remarks, but should be a dialogue where you are both actually trying to learn and understand something new. Give people credit, statistically the average IQ has continued to rise, statistically the world has never seen a more peaceful period, statistically there has never been less poverty in the world. The world, other than the environment and some bumps along the way, has been steadily improving since WW2.
Yes, you shouldn't technically have to dedicate your time to it, but a lot of things in life are like that. Maturity, I think, is often marked by the ability to take on responsibilities, whether that be parental or communal. It's the point where you change from an individual to a citizen of a society, with all the protective and tyrannical elements that that contains.
When I came out 10 years ago I watched the people in my rural community, through interactions with myself and others who came out, change and evolve. I didn't shame anyone for holding their beliefs, and when someone said something homophobic around me without knowing I was gay, rather than insult and belittle them I merely continued to live my life justly and honestly, and I feel that they came to understand that things aren't exactly the way they originally thought.
We've made a lot of progress here in the West, it's easy to get cynical, and for good reasons honestly. But it's important to remember that we got where we are by having open conversations about our feelings. Sometimes those conversations can be unpleasant, but it's that ability to speak freely that defines our society as a place many wish to live in still to this day.
It's easy to say "those people should just hide in the shadows" and think that that's the solution, but let me tell you, I know the difference between someone being nice to me because they have to, and someone being nice to me because they want to.
If you don't want to dedicate the energy to having these difficult conversations, no worries, everyone's life is filled with different obstacles and it can be hard to find the time, but calling for people's jobs, trying to destroy their lives, that's not going to change their hearts. It only fuels more resentment.
This is a sentiment I have found great difficulty getting across on this forum in more recent years, people on the left have seemed to become incredibly resentful, understandably. But think about that for a moment. Resentment creating more resentment. When does it end? Am I suppose to continue to live in resentment over the seclusion I faced throughout my youth? The years of loneliness? I've been down that road, it only leads to more alienation. The most effective strategy, time after time after time this last decade has always been to forgive, and offer a hand, and to move on if it is cast away, perhaps for the next individual to try at it in their passing.
Well she didn't shut up and act like an object, doesn't that automatically mean that she crossed the line?
Monkeyball
Banned
I agree with his point that just banishing people that say sexist or racist things isn't going to solve a single thing.
His ramble about guys having it harder than women in dating sounds a bit pathetic and nice guyish.
His ramble about guys having it harder than women in dating sounds a bit pathetic and nice guyish.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
I don't get his angle. If people tell me I did or said something wrong and I face consequences for it, I start to look inwards to understand the situation, and most of the time I get out of it being remorseful and apologetic.
If no one makes you sit down or shut up, you'll just become more and more of an asshole.
If no one makes you sit down or shut up, you'll just become more and more of an asshole.
family_guy
Member
I'll spend the time trying to educate kids but by the time they are an adult it's pretty much a lost cause.
On an individual level, I think Bill is right - attacking someone will only make them dig their heels in further.
On a societal level, I think pushing cultural norms and shaming people who don't fall into them is actually very effective. I think the way it's pushed or people are shamed can be immoral, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.
I also think any recommendation about having calm discussions with racists/homophobes needs to clarify that it's not just a responsibility for minorities - everyone should be having these conversations, including and especially people who are not in the targeted groups.
On a societal level, I think pushing cultural norms and shaming people who don't fall into them is actually very effective. I think the way it's pushed or people are shamed can be immoral, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.
I also think any recommendation about having calm discussions with racists/homophobes needs to clarify that it's not just a responsibility for minorities - everyone should be having these conversations, including and especially people who are not in the targeted groups.
Messofanego
Banned
Bill Burr would be one of the last people I'd want to hear his opinion on about social injustice so I'm not surprised it went down like that 😂
ShemhazaiX
Member
Well most of the time I've seen stuff like sitting down with bigot studies, they've actually gone pretty well. Doubt they're peer reviewed though, just stuff like "Meet Your First Muslim" experiences.
Edit: beaten by someone with much better examples.
The Incarnation
Member
I'm not going to quote the rest of your post, and buddy don't worry I get what you're saying 100% percent, but I'm stopping this particular point because there's something you need to understand.
There are people out there, whose stance is "Everyone who isn't white and straight needs to be removed from this earth".
Having the "common ground" discussion isn't a fruitful one because there is no common ground. There is no meeting someone "halfway" on wanting a pure aryan race. And most of them are late enough in life that they've mostly made up their minds. I have enough problems listening to people complain about liberal media, publicly. Sitting down and talking with them isn't doing shit. They literally run through their talking points, and no amount of "Mhm, yes, I understand" will ever get them to open up to anything you have to say. They want to dictate to you, what the truth of the world is. They are not interested in "listening" to you having a conversation, no matter how willing you are to listen to them.
These are the kind of people that erode your willingness to "sit down and talk". And I imagine for those who have to deal with the level of abuse they get day in and day out from these kind of people, it's not that they can't find the time to dedicate, it's they would rather kill themselves than have to talk to the people who routinely abuse and insult them them day in and day out.
Or, and this is only an "or", they think you're one of "the good ones". They still hate gays, or at the very least continue to use homophobic slurs. They just decided to make you an exception. You never changed their attitude on homosexuals, you changed their attitude on you personally. That's the problem. It's what I see every single time. My coworkers who continue to this day to say racist or homophobic things, but get instantly defensive if I ever bring up someone they know who is gay, because "They're alright". As if they can excuse the person, but the attitude in general is still there. Or because they were never challenged by the person who they're indirectly insulting, they feel they've earned the right to say that kind of stuff.
The idea that we can sit down and talk it out with these people is a scenario where you assume both people are acting and discussing in good faith. It's been increasingly clear that that's not the case. Ironically for both sides. I mean, you're not going into that conversation willing to "maybe" come out of it a little more racist. So if you're going into that conversation with a clear agenda of "my way is the right way", why would the other person be any different? If they are smart enough to realize what you're trying to do, and they've already made up their mind that they want to hate these people, and as long as the internet exists to help them find "some" example to justify their beliefs, I really don't see how genuinely effective, long term, "sitting down and talking" is going to do to change their minds.
Trying to make sure their children don't adopt the same attitudes as their parents seems like the more effective strategy, even if it'll take a generation for any real change to happen. That's sort of what is already happening now.
Zepp Twofist
Member
Or he wanted to learn it and that was the funnier way to spin it when talking about it because he is a professional comedian
Always-honest
Banned
I can agree with both. You need to assess the situation per incident i guess.
It's kind of cheap and easy to just make yourself feel good and call other people bad, racist, bigot, sexist, etc. But we've all been there. I've been in situations myself where i talked to a person about his/ her behaviour. Not in a condescending way, but interested. Turns out most of these people aren't as racist, sexist or bad as they seem. People grow up in a certain environment. Most people are willing, is all i'm trying to say. Some are just complete dumb fucking asshats though. And there is no saving them.
Just pointing a finger and taking them out of the public equation does not end the underlying problem and mindset. Having a simple conversation and showing people another way sometimes does.
But it's difficult to calculate the effort involved and it's hard to justify the effort when you think you did your best to be less ignorant and the other person didn't do shit about it.
It's kind of cheap and easy to just make yourself feel good and call other people bad, racist, bigot, sexist, etc. But we've all been there. I've been in situations myself where i talked to a person about his/ her behaviour. Not in a condescending way, but interested. Turns out most of these people aren't as racist, sexist or bad as they seem. People grow up in a certain environment. Most people are willing, is all i'm trying to say. Some are just complete dumb fucking asshats though. And there is no saving them.
Just pointing a finger and taking them out of the public equation does not end the underlying problem and mindset. Having a simple conversation and showing people another way sometimes does.
But it's difficult to calculate the effort involved and it's hard to justify the effort when you think you did your best to be less ignorant and the other person didn't do shit about it.
You are right and your first post was worded fine (I'm not even a native English speaker).
Bill is not always on the mark with social justice, but he's a funny, loveable guy who clearly isn't a bigot and is the opposite of fragile, so there's that. His point about there needing to be a conversation with hatebabies is legit, because so many of them are voters and one might make a case that fucking them off after the slightest micro agression is displayed instead of at least trying to be understanding of them is in part what led to president trump. These people are voters, they breed a lot, and there will only be a further disconnect if the gap isn't at least mended.
Having a conversation to understand where they come from to empathize with them should be the minimum. To see them not as complete trash pieces of shit subhumans who need to be fucked off, but as people who may have been viciously abused, neglected, tormented, etc. People who might have been us if we were in their position. Doesn't mean we have to tolerate their prejudice, but if there is motivation for them to better themselves, that is not a bad thing. If one of the figureheads of the Westboro Baptist Church can turn it around to be a force of good, why can't anyone else?
Also, people pf color, LGBTQ peeps, or anyone who is highly sensitive and easily hurt by prejudice shouldn't need to start that conversation as much as friends who can handle it better. I don't see why white allies or whatever and only white people should facilitate these conversations, because that ignores that there are different personality types that exist in all people regardless of color, and it the more people of different backgrounds mix it up the more they become used to and accepting of people's differences, etc.
Having a conversation to understand where they come from to empathize with them should be the minimum. To see them not as complete trash pieces of shit subhumans who need to be fucked off, but as people who may have been viciously abused, neglected, tormented, etc. People who might have been us if we were in their position. Doesn't mean we have to tolerate their prejudice, but if there is motivation for them to better themselves, that is not a bad thing. If one of the figureheads of the Westboro Baptist Church can turn it around to be a force of good, why can't anyone else?
Also, people pf color, LGBTQ peeps, or anyone who is highly sensitive and easily hurt by prejudice shouldn't need to start that conversation as much as friends who can handle it better. I don't see why white allies or whatever and only white people should facilitate these conversations, because that ignores that there are different personality types that exist in all people regardless of color, and it the more people of different backgrounds mix it up the more they become used to and accepting of people's differences, etc.
entremet
Member
To be fair, Bill says the exact same thing lol. He says don't listen to him as an old white guy on these topics.
TumblingHippo
Member
Lol at "finding common ground with bigots" that people who don't have to deal with bigotry subscribe to.
Glass Shark
Banned
You don't stop a forest fire by asking the trees to shake hands with it.
What about that black guy who goes around befriending KKK members and ends up turning them away from racism and he keeps their hoods as trophies? Is he bad for doing this or heroic?
I'm inclined to agree with you but there is examples of personals stories where 'common ground' does win out. Not really something you can apply to larger social tensions or racism I guess though
well we leave finding that common ground with bigots up to you
k.
I sometimes facilitate conversations when I encounter people like that online or at work as a first measure. Aside from that, there are several qualified therapists I connected with in college that I might recommend. Thats about all anyone can do.
Also I left out the part where once you understand the psychology of bigotry a bit more, fucking off the ones who refuse to change is even more fun. Check out Talib Kweli's twitter feed if you want to see what that looks like!
gutter_trash
Banned
when guys get together for beers, we say the stupidest shit.
he is right, if we were recorded at all times, we would all be fired
he is right, if we were recorded at all times, we would all be fired