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[The Xtortionist]

I think Infinite's story is pretty understandable when conveying the "what", but it just takes some digging to figure out "why". The "what" should be enough for most regular players so I'd say Irrational did a pretty good job with accessibility.

 

[Haunted]

The musician Albert Fink used the Luteces' quantum machine to steal music from future timelines.

Nice, I must've missed that audiolog.

 

[APZonerunner]

If the bolded were true (which I've thought about before), how do the Luteces kill the lighthouse keeper?

It's definitely true up to a point, as there's dialogue of the pair saying Booker can right their wrongs "In their stead" - why would he need to do it in their stead if they could themselves?

Perhaps they can't interfere directly with events they're already entwined with? The lighthouse keeper is separate from Comstock, Columbia and other events they're deeply woven into.

Nice, I must've missed that audiolog.

There's songs all through the game (Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, Everybody Wants to Rule the World etc) by Fink's brother from different periods. In a side area you can find Fink's Brother's business (in Emporia) and there's a half-open tear with modern music wafting through it, and an audio log where Fink talks about watching for his scientific advantages (perhaps deriving Vigors, Handymen and Songbird from Big Daddies and Plasmids, watching Rapture) and talks about his brother doing the same with music.

 

[sn00zer]

One thing I dont think has been discussed is how the ending is breaking the fourth wall.

I believe the infinte lighthouses scene was also symbolic of other players playing the game, each game plays differently, but they all end up in the same place, they also allude to the fact that games are played multiple times, each time a little different

 

[Noray]

The second one I can't answer, however there is a logical fallacy in your first question. WHY is it reasonable to assume that "our" Liz is the only one to be freed from the siphon? We're talking about Infinite Possibilities.

No, we're talking about constants and variables, just as our Booker ALWAYS at least attends the baptism. That's the 'rules' as the game presents it. Booker always gets stopped by the Songbird, old Liz says. Ours is the only one to free Liz from the siphon. Our Liz is the only one that sees all the doors and knows exactly what to do to stop Comstock. What are the others doing there?

 

[ProfessorLobo]

There's a video that shows all the old school remixes of classic tracks, like Tainted Love and Girls Just Want to Have Fun. That should probably be in the OP.

 

[Trigger]

Nice, I must've missed that audiolog.

Here you go. It's in the Emporia level:

"Dear brother, these holes in the thin air continue to pay dividends. I know not which musician you borrow your notes from, but if he has half the genius of the biologist I now observe, well...then you are to be the Mozart of Columbia."

 

[Sblargh]

If the bolded were true (which I've thought about before), how do the Luteces kill the lighthouse keeper?

Maybe they annoyed him into suicide.

 

[Guevara]

The more I think about the game, the more it feels like something that was hacked up, reconfigured, and pieced together out of several very different iterations. These are the parts as I see them:

1. Beginning through being kicked off Lady Comstock's airship: Very well paced, this was extremely forwardly compelling to me (gameplay nitpicks aside). Introduced all aspects of Columbia as a real place with a hideous underbelly.
   
2. Finktown gunsmith fetch quest and switching to the Vox universe. Tedious and unfocused by comparison but establishes some logic about the tears.
   
3. Songbird crashes your second zeppelin, Market and Comstock House exterior. Very much like the Finktown quest in terms of gameplay. While the ghost fights sucked, I did like seeing the war-torn market area. In some ways, it is superficially like the beginning of the game (because you can/have to explore around visiting shops), just with a lot more shooting.
   
4. Comstock House: From another game entirely. Absolutely nothing like what came before or after.
   
5. Fighting on the Hand of the Prophet (airship). Could be another game reskinned in my opinion. The dropships and waves of enemies were somewhat like what happened outside of Comstock House, but also introduce a new mechanic at the last moment (Songbird) just for this section.
6. Denouement: The reveal, a long interactive cutscene that ties together what you've seen.

If this sounds overly critical, it's not meant to be. I enjoyed it, I just wanted to think through the disjointed feeling I had throughout the game.

 

[Sorian]

It's definitely true up to a point, as there's dialogue of the pair saying Booker can right their wrongs "In their stead" - why would he need to do it in their stead if they could themselves?

Perhaps they can't interfere directly with events they're already entwined with? The lighthouse keeper is separate from Comstock, Columbia and other events they're deeply woven into.

Maybe. I believe that they can interfere in the timeline and just choose not to but I can't say why. Probably cause they are crazy and like seeing this "experiment" of theirs along the way.

 

[Zeliard]

Maybe they annoyed him into suicide.

Endless sardonic berating

 

[The Xtortionist]

Maybe. I believe that they can interfere in the timeline and just choose not to but I can't say why. Probably cause they are crazy and like seeing this "experiment" of theirs along the way.

Pretty much. I think they're very much concerned with testing constants and variables (such as the coin flip and bird/cage), along with how the player's Booker's psyche responds to being brought through the original tear.

 

[Discotheque]

damn man, i'm really glad they didn't make out or anything considering the ending.

this could have turned into oldboy.

i'm pretty damn shocked by this ending....this was great.

 

[GoddyofAus]

No, we're talking about constants and variables, just as our Booker ALWAYS at least attends the baptism. That's the 'rules' as the game presents it. Booker always gets stopped by the Songbird, old Liz says. Ours is the only one to free Liz from the siphon. Our Liz is the only one that sees all the doors and knows exactly what to do to stop Comstock. What are the others doing there?

Again, how do you know this? The siphon being destroyed could be just as much of a constant as the Baptism is. Old Elizabeth could have dragged Booker into her universe in every possibility. The only Booker that gets killed by the Songbird is the one in her universe.

 

[Ventrue]

I just realised what's going on with Booker picking the winning ball (77) in the raffle and thus blowing his cover. The chance that Booker would pick the winning ball is very slim, and so of course in most universes he doesn't; you just happen to be in the universe where he does. It's an early hint of the 'everything happens in some universe' idea.

 

[Sorian]

No, we're talking about constants and variables, just as our Booker ALWAYS at least attends the baptism. That's the 'rules' as the game presents it. Booker always gets stopped by the Songbird, old Liz says. Ours is the only one to free Liz from the siphon. Our Liz is the only one that sees all the doors and knows exactly what to do to stop Comstock. What are the others doing there?

I think the game is trying to point out that there are litle variables that don't actually affect anything. We both beat the game right Noray? I'm willing to bet my savings that we didn't play it the exact same way but both of us got to that lighthouse scene. My Liz was freed from the siphon and so was yours. Maybe that Booker you saw across the way was me playing the game? Think about it. There are infinite possibilities, you weren't the first one to get to that lighthouse scene and you won't be the last.

 

[Haunted]

Maybe they annoyed him into suicide.

:lol

The Luteces are the best character in the game.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Added. Great addition thanks!

Ha, thanks! I didnt even know my quote from Back to the Future was in the OP when i saw it the first time.
Its a privilege to be in it!
I have 1500 shots from my playthrough in good quality, so if you are looking for something about the story or some detail in the scenery, its very possible I have a shot of it, so you can PM me if you need something.

 

[Scrabble]

Umm, the Luteces are traveling among multiple universes just fine because they were killed within their machine and they basically broke apart at the molecular level across an infinite amount of realities.

So was Comstock's reasoning for getting Elizabeth only because he needed a daughter, and because he was sterile needed to go and get Booker's? He originally had no intentions or belief that she would have powers, it was all just purely coincidental? Or maybe he knew Anna would lose her finger?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

why does 1970's France have the same trashcans as Columbia

 

[DatDude]

The more I think about the game, the more it feels like something that was hacked up, reconfigured, and pieced together out of several very different iterations. These are the parts as I see them:

1. Beginning through being kicked off the Zeppelin. Very well paced, this was extremely forwardly compelling to me (gameplay nitpicks aside). Introduced all aspects of Columbia as a real place with a hideous underbelly.
   
2. Finktown gunsmith fetch quest and switching to the Vox universe. Tedious and unfocused by comparison but establishes some logic about the tears.
   
3. Songbird crashes your second zeppelin, Market and Comstock House exterior. Very much like the Finktown quest in terms of gameplay. While the ghost fights sucked, I did like seeing the war-torn market area. In some ways, it is superficially like the beginning of the game, just with a lot more shooting.
   
4. Comstock House: From another game entirely. Absolutely nothing like what came before or after.
   
5. Fighting on the Hand of the Prophet (airship). Could be another game reskinned in my opinion. The dropships and waves of enemies were somewhat like what happened outside of Comstock House, but also introduce a new mechanic at the last moment (Songbird) just for this section.
6. Denouement: The reveal, a long interactive cutscene that ties together what you've seen.

If this sounds overly critical, it's not meant to be. I enjoyed it, I just wanted to think through the disjointed feeling I had throughout the game.

I don't think so, considering the previous iterations were MUCCHHH different than what we got with Infinite.

Also BruceLeeRoy, I think it would be cool to also add in the FAQ why Comstock is racist and why Booker isn't (one justifies it by religion, the other atoned by sulking in his hell for what he had done).

Also maybe symbolic theories that we've been working on, like the seemingly out of place racism that doesn't connect with the main narrative is more of a mirror of booker and the chaos that his taking place within.

 

[APZonerunner]

Again, how do you know this? The siphon being destroyed could be just as much of a constant as the Baptism is. Old Elizabeth could have dragged Booker into her universe in every possibility.

Well, I'm not sure if she's the only one, but surely once the Siphon is gone events are then a foregone conclusion? Old Elizabeth says that even with Comstock gone her indoctrination means she no longer wants to take the shackles off, so she didn't.

When the tower is destroyed for young Liz, she immediately gains the full extent of her powers and sees everything. From there, the ending is bound to happen, for she can see every door and every possibility, and is bound to take that same path.

The Luteces are the best character in the game.

Was stunned to learn Rosalind is Jennifer Hale. Great performance, and unrecognizable.

 

[Zeliard]

why does 1970's France have the same trashcans as Columbia

c'est toujours a la mode

 

[Noray]

Again, how do you know this? The siphon being destroyed could be just as much of a constant as the Baptism is. Old Elizabeth could have dragged Booker into her universe in every possibility.

What? Now you're doing some serious mental gymnastics, or revising what the game tells us to fit your theory. Old Elizabeth says that Songbird stops Booker every time. She's seen it happen! The Luteces have seen it happen. The thing that changes it, that stops the cycle, is Old Liz giving Booker the key to stopping Songbird. If the siphon is destroyed in every, or several, universes, what on earth would stop Liz from coming to the same conclusion when she can see all the doors?

edit: basically what APZonerunner said.

 

[Sorian]

I just realised what's going on with Booker picking the winning ball (77) in the raffle and thus blowing his cover. The chance that Booker would pick the winning ball is very slim, and so of course in most universes he doesn't; you just happen to be in the universe where he does. It's an early hint of the 'everything happens in some universe' idea.

Nah, its a constant that he wil always pick it. He are forced to assume that death in game leads to a new Booker being pulled into Columbia and doing everything the exact same way we did up until the moments before the death and things continue from there. All of our Booker's picked the 77 ball.

 

[Haunted]

why does 1970's France have the same trashcans as Columbia

constants and variables

 

[DatDude]

Also adding to the FAQ: Why don't any of our choices change the games narrative?

Because they were meant to be! The theme of this game is that choices are illusions. It's similar to the bioshock 1 message of how players are slaves to the game design..well in Infinite the message is that the players can make a multitude of variant of choices but at the end of the day those choices will be similar.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

why does 1970's France have the same trashcans as Columbia

I saw that yesterday a had a good chuckle. Its like they got all the trashcans from a theme park and decided to use them around the whole world.

constants and variables

Perfect.

 

[sn00zer]

constants and variables

This needs to be the go to answer anytime someone has any videogame critique

 

[GoddyofAus]

Well, I'm not sure if she's the only one, but surely once the Siphon is gone events are then a foregone conclusion? Old Elizabeth says that even with Comstock gone her indoctrination means she no longer wants to take the shackles off, so she didn't.

When the tower is destroyed for young Liz, she immediately gains the full extent of her powers and sees everything. From there, the ending is bound to happen, for she can see every door and every possibility, and is bound to take that same path.

The only explanation I can come up with for that in my sleep deprived state is the infinite loop. The same ending to the loop is happening simultaneously in all those universes, and once it is done and Columbia no longer exists, then what we saw with the Lighthouses doesn't happen anymore, because there's no "Elizabeth" to escort Booker through the process.

 

[Sorian]

So was Comstock's reasoning for getting Elizabeth only because he needed a daughter, and because he was sterile needed to go and get Booker's? He originally had no intentions or belief that she would have powers, it was all just purely coincidental? Or maybe he knew Anna would lose her finger?

Precisely, he just wanted his own flesh and blood so he took Booker's child. He may have known that she would have powers based on what he saw through a tear, it may be a "constant" that she always loses her finger, or it may have been a fluke. At the end of the day, Comstock just wanted her because she was his child.

 

[Riposte]

I'd say its too close to say it wasn't done on purpose...I mean what is the odds?

Another explanation is much more likely than what you are implying. You guys are letting the whole "connect the dots" stuff go to your head.

 

[Sblargh]

This needs to be the go to answer anytime someone has any videogame critique

Nanomachines are a constant!

 

[Sorian]

Nanomachines are a constant!

And everyone's reaction is a variable!

 

[Salamando]

Precisely, he just wanted his own flesh and blood so he took Booker's child. He may have known that she would have powers based on what he saw through a tear, it may be a "constant" that she always loses her finger, or it may have been a fluke. At the end of the day, Comstock just wanted her because she was his child.

For that matter, Comstock was willing to leash Elizabeth further so she couldn't create tears. He started seeing it as more of a problem than anything.

 

[Zeliard]

The only real mystery left is what they'll do with the DLC if it's more than combat arenas.

 

[Stoze]

The one question I have right now is how does Comstock (and the rest of Columbia from him) know how to identify the "false prophet" by the AD hand marking?

Booker didn't carve the initials into his hand until after Comstock took Anna/Elizabeth, and then many years later the Luteces decided to take Booker to Columbia. In the final cutscene when he is dazed from his mind getting scrambled from having been recently brought into a new universe, it's only then that the Luteces notice that Booker has AD marked on his hand, meaning that they couldn't have informed Comstock about the AD marking previously.

I guess I could just make an assumption that Comstock was peeping through universes and saw a more recent Booker, but that's no fun.

 

[Haunted]

I'd initially written off the Luteces taking Booker's kid to compensate for Comstock's infertility... and then returning to Booker to fix things after they're betrayed by Comstock/Fink to be one of those shitty "coincidental" connections you see so often in weak fiction writing.

But I guess it does make sense to take the daughter of one of his alternate timeline selves instead of some random kid.

 

[Sorian]

The one question I have right now is how does Comstock (and the rest of Columbia from him) know how to identify the "false prophet" by the AD hand marking?

Booker didn't carve the initials into his hand until after Comstock took Anna/Elizabeth, and then many years later the Luteces decided to take Booker to Columbia. In the final cutscene when he is dazed from his mind getting scrambled from having been recently brought into a new universe, it's only then that the Luteces notice that Booker has AD marked on his hand, meaning that they couldn't have informed Comstock about the AD marking previously.

I guess I could just make an assumption that Comstock was peeping through universes and saw a more recent Booker, but that's no fun.

That's where all his info comes from, that's also how he knows New York will burn.

The only real mystery left is what they'll do with the DLC if it's more than combat arenas.

Levine already said all DLC will be story related and I would assume at least one will give more info on Songbird.

 

[olimpia84]

Awesome thread, subscribed. Bioshock Infinite has one of the best endings out there (imo) even though I'm still trying to 100% get a grasp of what's going on xD

 

[Riposte]

I remember this being shot down, but why isn't the vision Comstock had of the mountain of fire (blah blah) a "leaked" memory of when Old Elizabeth showed Booker New York in flames? I recall Booker remembered it too.

 

[Sorian]

I remember this being shot down, but why isn't the vision Comstock had of the mountain of fire (blah blah) a "leaked" memory of when Old Elizabeth showed Booker New York in flames? I recall Booker remembered it too.

It was a leaked memory the first time he saw it earlier in the game (after he gets drowned at the Columbia baptism I believe?). Once it leaks over, it is a part of their normal memories.

Edit: The scene I am talking about is one of the office scenes and he opens the door and sees a future New York being rined upon in black and white.

 

[Metroidvania]

I think the Lutece's are trapped from doing everything themselves because Booker AND Liz are needed to 'reset' the universe back to before Comstock's appearance. Without the proper motivation to do so (i.e. going through the whole narrative), it's possible that the Luteces did try direct intervention only to realize that infinite other timelines still existed with the same problems until Booker's 'choice' was erased.

In order to stop ALL of them, they needed Booker and Liz, the two people with the capability to fix the 'mistake' they'd created with Comstock (Booker as the subject and Liz to establish the paradox/get rid of all Bookers) to perform the task themselves.

I mean, if they weren't able to do anything after their 'death'/scattering, they would not have been able to give Booker the shield, which is the one thing that has a direct effect on the gameplay, while not overtly affecting the narrative except to help prevent Booker's death.

I guess I could just make an assumption that Comstock was peeping through universes and saw a more recent Booker, but that's no fun.

I believe this is what happens. Comstock looks into the tear machine later and sees the Luteces going against him to get Booker back, who had already carved the AD onto his hand. Upon seeing this, he took precautions against Booker while telling Fink to take care of the Luteces, to account for the eventuality, the same as he did when sending the security team to wait in case Liz ever showed up. (The voxophone mentions that the team had been waiting a while.)

 

[GoddyofAus]

I remember this being shot down, but why isn't the vision Comstock had of the mountain of fire (blah blah) a "leaked" memory of when Old Elizabeth showed Booker New York in flames? I recall Booker remembered it too.

It essentially is, because the vision of it that Booker had was from the exact same viewpoint as he saw it with old Liz. You wold think that Comstocks vision of it would be from the perspective of up in Columbia, watching the fire rain down.

 

[Sorian]

It essentially is, because the vision of it that Booker had was from the exact same viewpoint as he saw it with old Liz. You wold think that Comstocks vision of it would be from the perspective of up in Columbia, watching the fire rain down.

Where were Old Liz and Booker standing during that scene? Why wouldn't Liz be up in Columbia?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

More serious question; is there anything explicitly saying the final scene is Booker being drowned before he decides on his baptism after Wounded Knee? The whole "Smother him in his crib" line initially last week made me think they were at a completely different, earlier baptism (would explain the lack of the other people who were at the Wounded Knee baptism), where the Elizabeths are actually killing Booker as a baby? I've accepted its just the WE baptism, but the latter is what I thought for the first couple minutes after seeing the ending.

ain't no baby going to be able to fight back several grown women shoving his head underwater

 

[GoddyofAus]

Where were Old Liz and Booker standing during that scene? Why wouldn't Liz be up in Columbia?

Good question, because Booker was viewing the attack on New York THREW a tear that she opened. Where was she when she opened this tear? Certainly not in Columbia, because you can see it.

 

[Zeliard]

Where were Old Liz and Booker standing during that scene? Why wouldn't Liz be up in Columbia?

Liz probably wanted to show Booker a more intimate view of a burning New York.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The only material disappointment I have with this game is the lack of Songbird. I'm fine with it being a weird, unexplained entity in the world, but it never really felt like The Bird was pursuing you. The best moment was the bit we all saw back in 2011, which is a shame.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I don't think so, considering the previous iterations were MUCCHHH different than what we got with Infinite.

Also BruceLeeRoy, I think it would be cool to also add in the FAQ why Comstock is racist and why Booker isn't (one justifies it by religion, the other atoned by sulking in his hell for what he had done).

Also maybe symbolic theories that we've been working on, like the seemingly out of place racism that doesn't connect with the main narrative is more of a mirror of booker and the chaos that his taking place within.

I would love to. Someone in the last spoiler thread gave a really well thought out breakdown if someone could help me find that it would be really helpful.