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BoingBoing: No Girl Wins: 3 Ways Girls Unlearn Their Love of Gaming

Malajax

Member
I get what the article is saying, but the way its written annoys me.

"But why don't you play games sis?"
"I... Like... I don't know..."
"I must ask her again to get to the bottom of this"

She asks her at least twice and barely gets an answer and is then forced to extrapolate why that is. I get it, women are uncomfortable playing games because it's almost exclusively marketed towards men. The article seems unnecessarily bloated because she keeps repeating herself in slightly different ways. Not downplaying the issue, just the writing style.
 

Nephtes

Member
One part of the problem is that in this community, anything that's considered feminine is devalued. Games about Transformers, ninja turtles or Batman are okay and good, but games about fashion, ponies, or somesuch is not just silliness. Bright colors are out, grimdark is in. Killing stuff in games is great, exploring romantic relationships is something to laugh at. People can get downright aggressive at the sight of these things.

That's just a byproduct of the venue this is being discussed in. I'm sure there are lots of male gamers that enjoy games with pastel ponies (wasn't there a pony fighting game recently being talked about on NeoGAF?).

But the majority of people here on this forum are male if I had to guess, and that isn't their kind of game.

Personally, I don't devalue games about fashion or ponies or other feminine things, but you probably wont see me discussing them either. It's not my prefered style of game.

Should there be topics here and on other forums about these kinds of games? Absolutely. Just because I don't think we should devalue games that aren't of our taste, doesn't mean I think we need to give them equal room in our own personal preferences.

For example, The Sims. Not my kind of game. I'm not going to play it. But if that's your thing, more power to you. I'm glad you found something you like to play. It isn't important what you play, it's important you play it and help out the industry.

Just my $0.02.

If we're talking 'content of character', mayhap thirsty dudes should tone down on the 'SHE HAS A VAGINA AND IS PLAYING VIDEO GAMES' angle and go for the 'oh cool, this person shares my interests' mindset.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. That is some disgusting behavior and it needs to stop.
 
My current girlfriend plays a lot of adventure games. She's a Suda51 fan (especially of his older works such as The Silver Case, Moonlight Syndrome etc) and likes a lot of visual novels too. She's played loads of them since the PSX era (she's Japanese and there's boatloads of those kind of games from back then and on the PS2). She also likes the old school JRPGs like those made by Love-de-Lic, Inc (Moon: Remix RPG Adventure, UFO, L.O.L etc). She's 31 and her sister is even a bigger gamer than her. So yeah, they do exist and I think Japan did (and in most ways, still does) a great job of providing to them. Western games don't seem to do as much, imo.

Visual novels and adventure games definitely have a lot of wide spread appeal to both genders, due to their easy pick up and play whilst enjoying an interactive novel/manga/film approach to them.
 

TEHJOE

Neo Member
I understand the need to stress the differences between the author and her sister for this type of journalism but the comparison comes across rather snide for an article talking about acceptance.
 

Gsnap

Member
My wife just finished the last of us the other day. She also enjoyed journey and flower. She started Okami, and she really like being able to draw with the wiimote, and she loves the artstyle. But she may not have the patience to get through it with all the text. We play Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros several times a week. She wants us to go out and rent far cry 4 today so she can play it.

Basically what I'm saying is, I like that the article focuses more on the culture surrounding the games (Disqualification, Marginalization, and Marketing), than the games themselves. There's so many good games out there for boys and girls, and it is shameful that players and the industry either don't recognize that, or purposefully try to ignore it.

Telling a girl (or anyone for that matter) that she can't or shouldn't enjoy Cooking Mama, The Last of Us, or anything in between is just plain stupid and hurtful.
 
Great article and, as a father, gamer, and developer, I agree. I'm cognizant enough to recognize and see the issues that she brings up, even though I don't even dare try to put myself into her shoes because as a guy who has been playing games for 30+ years, I can't have her exact perspective. I've totally observed it, though.

My wife is a gamer. Nowhere near as much as she used to be, though. One of the first questions she asked me when I told her I played games was if I knew when Baldur's Gate was coming out, because she loved the D&D games like Menzoberanzan and Ravenloft and wanted a new D&D game. She played Nethack a ton. Borrowed my N64 to play Ocarina of Time. Greatly enjoyed puzzle games like Kablooey! on the SNES. She'll destroy anyone in any version of Civ. So when I ask why she isn't as interested in gaming as she used to be, it isn't because she's a grown up or has developed other hobbies, etc. It's because you have to wade through a lot of KABLAM BOOM POW BOOBS SEXY to find things now. While searching for games was definitely a thing in the past, I do wonder about the subconscious effect that current marketing has in creating a sense of things not being for her anymore.

My daughter, 9, is a more interesting case. She loves games of all kinds, mostly because my children (I have a 13 year old son, too) were brought up in a gaming household. My daughter desperately wants to be part of the gaming community at large, but even at 9 she feels pushed away by many things. She'll often ask me, uncomfortably, why is such and such female character not wearing enough clothes. Or why a character feels the need to be so sexy. Why does female armor look so much more flimsy than the exact same classes male counterpart armor?

It's sad as a father and eye opening as a developer. It makes me strive to do better wherever I can.
 

Erevador

Member
I like to use the Bioshock: Infinite box art as an example of how the industry is still fumbling around in the dark when it comes to marketing to female gamers. Where's Elizabeth? Oh... she's on the back. But hey, check out Booker DeDudebro on the front! So, if you know nothing else about the game, this already colors your opinion of how the game actually is, and maybe, if you're a woman, you don't bother to buy it.
Yeah, that one is particularly egregious because it mis-advertises the game. Booker is a very dark character, and subversion of that archetype. Ultimately, I think the game has a very anti-violence message, and deals with the costs of that behavior on your soul.

I genuinely believe a more artistic cover would have in no way affected the sales of the game, and may even have helped it. But focus group-think clearly disagrees...
 

Karkador

Banned
I see lots of people - at least one different person a day - playing a game on their phone. Some videogame enthusiasts (including people on GAF) will assert that these aren't real games, and these people aren't real gamers. But when I look at these people playing, I see people enjoying a game. That's all that should really matter. I really see no point in excluding them.

It's tangentially related to this, but I feel that there's a certain contingent of people who don't want to accept games as a general medium, but rather the same narrow thing.
 

Nephtes

Member
My daughter, 9, is a more interesting case. She loves games of all kinds, mostly because my children (I have a 13 year old son, too) were brought up in a gaming household. My daughter desperately wants to be part of the gaming community at large, but even at 9 she feels pushed away by many things. She'll often ask me, uncomfortably, why is such and such female character not wearing enough clothes. Or why a character feels the need to be so sexy. Why does female armor look so much more flimsy than the exact same classes male counterpart armor?

It's sad as a father and eye opening as a developer. It makes me strive to do better wherever I can.

That's sad. I think we've come a long way as an industry when it comes to portraying strong women in games, but we still have far too many instances of blatant sexism and eye candy appearing in games because in some ways, games haven't grown up with men. It seems so many devs think we're all 13 year old boys...and even at 13, I don't know that I wanted ogle polygons. (granted Lara Croft when I was 13 was quite angular...)

My first reaction to the plight of your daughter is to quit my job making medical software, go back to game dev, and make a game, "Armor Sisters". A co-op beat em up where two heavily armored women take on an army of scantily clad men...Double Dragon style. Maybe someone stole their man in the opening scene?

But that's probably the wrong reaction...

I see lots of people - at least one different person a day - playing a game on their phone. Some videogame enthusiasts (including people on GAF) will assert that these aren't real games, and these people aren't real gamers. But when I look at these people playing, I see people enjoying a game. That's all that should really matter. I really see no point in excluding them.

So much this. I saw an older lady playing Clash of Clans in a physical therapist's office waiting room the other day. I told her seeing someone my mom's age playing videogames was very encouraging to me.
 

Raggie

Member
My daughter, 9, is a more interesting case. She loves games of all kinds, mostly because my children (I have a 13 year old son, too) were brought up in a gaming household. My daughter desperately wants to be part of the gaming community at large, but even at 9 she feels pushed away by many things. She'll often ask me, uncomfortably, why is such and such female character not wearing enough clothes. Or why a character feels the need to be so sexy. Why does female armor look so much more flimsy than the exact same classes male counterpart armor?

The thing is that she can ask you those questions because you're her dad, but if she would do the same on a gaming forum, she'd be almost guaranteed to be told that she's a feminazi or a religious prude trying to make a problem out of nothing. She'd be told to leave "politics" out of gaming. She'd be told to grow a thicker skin and stop feeling offended too easily.These are not opinions that are okay to have.
 
One part of the problem is that in this community, anything that's considered feminine is devalued. Games about Transformers, ninja turtles or Batman are okay and good, but games about fashion, ponies, or somesuch is not just silliness. Bright colors are out, grimdark is in. Killing stuff in games is great, exploring romantic relationships is something to laugh at. People can get downright aggressive at the sight of these things.

Is what you're describing really any different from any other form of entertainment? The movie industry even uses the term "chick flick" to describe the love/romance stuff you mentioned. Everything is categorized in entertainment. You're doing it yourself with the "grimdark" description. Just as others do it with "dudebro".
 

Raggie

Member
Is what you're describing really any different from any other form of entertainment? The movie industry even uses the term "chick flick" to describe the love/romance stuff you mentioned. Everything is categorized in entertainment. You're doing it yourself with the "grimdark" description. Just as others do it with "dudebro".

Categories are not the problem, it's the fact that if something is perceived feminine, it's automatically considered less worthy. For example a romantic movie would be seen inferior to an action movie, even if both have equally stupid plotlines. Even girls and women who consume "girl" entertainment do so with more embarrassement about it than boys with their own.
 

IcyStorm

Member
Is what you're describing really any different from any other form of entertainment? The movie industry even uses the term "chick flick" to describe the love/romance stuff you mentioned. Everything is categorized in entertainment. You're doing it yourself with the "grimdark" description. Just as others do it with "dudebro".

It's not just a problem that's constrained within gaming; it happens everywhere in all sorts of societies and cultures. But just because it's a larger, societal issue doesn't mean we shouldn't try to tackle it in within gaming.
 
The thing is that she can ask you those questions because you're her dad, but if she would do the same on a gaming forum, she'd be almost guaranteed to be told that she's a feminazi or a religious prude trying to make a problem out of nothing. She'd be told to leave "politics" out of gaming. She'd be told to grow a thicker skin and stop feeling offended too easily.These are not opinions that are okay to have.

Totally. It's actually really difficult being a gaming culture/internet savvy parent with children who you want to be able to be part of that, but you know how gross they can be. Even if there were a "safe place" I'd be remiss to just openly let her join, because my first thought is, "I'm sure this place is full of creepers pretending to be OK people." It might not be entirely true, I don't find it to be paranoid either because I've grown up seeing stuff like that.

Tangential, but even my son is learning about online communities now via FFXIV. He's baller at tanking, but the other day came to me and was like, "Dad, people lie in the party finder. They say they are doing a farm party for Rav EX, but they really just want their first clear." I had to explain why people lie about that, and his response was, "Well I'm more than willing to help people, why don't they just ask?" To which I had to explain that, too.
 

Tigress

Member
It's not just a problem that's constrained within gaming; it happens everywhere in all sorts of societies and cultures. But just because it's a larger, societal issue doesn't mean we shouldn't try to tackle it in within gaming.

I think the problem in this particular problem is you aren't going to fix it in gaming until you fix it in the society that is perpetuating this view in the first place. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by the culture gaming is in, vs in gaming culture. You can try to fix it in gaming culture but until it is addressed within culture in general it will still bleed into gaming culture.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Categories are not the problem, it's the fact that if something is perceived feminine, it's automatically considered less worthy. For example a romantic movie would be seen inferior to an action movie, even if both have equally stupid plotlines. Even girls and women who consume "girl" entertainment do so with more embarrassement about it than boys with their own.

This is a highly dubious statement, especially since people tear apart "mindless" action films all the time, and concepts like "guilty pleasures" are not a gendered experience. No doubt there are people out there who need to grow up and realize that no gender has a monopoly on types of stories, but you're making some pretty broad assertions.

I read this article the other day and I think what struck me as unsettling was the author railed against gendered gaming experiences but specifically considers anything with violent material to be "male". It doesn't really seem like she's interested in breaking down gender assumptions in media consumption at all. A woman who likes BioShock Infinite is not any less feminine than one who likes Candy Crush. And the article also ladles on a lot of the judgmental "not real games" stuff even while she seems to decry it. I dunno what's with the weird tonality.
 

GooeyHeat

Member
Categories are not the problem, it's the fact that if something is perceived feminine, it's automatically considered less worthy. For example a romantic movie would be seen inferior to an action movie, even if both have equally stupid plotlines. Even girls and women who consume "girl" entertainment do so with more embarrassment about it than boys with their own.
Hell, this is even true outside of entertainment. Professions that are considered stereotypically female, such as teaching below a college level, nursing, among others, are considered lesser.
These kinds of problems are interconnected across many areas, which is what makes them so difficult to solve.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
At this point, the games are out there if you want a more introspective, feminine experience or just something more gender neutral. Just because the author's sister has a cursory at best familiarity with the medium doesn't diminish that.

For what it's worth, I'm male and I've been gaming since the mid-80s and GameStops skeev me the fuck out too. The tingling at the base of your spine isn't because they're inherently anti-female establishments. It's because they're filthy, badly lit pawn shops.
 

Nephtes

Member
At this point, the games are out there if you want a more introspective, feminine experience or just something more gender neutral. Just because the author's sister has a cursory at best familiarity with the medium doesn't diminish that.

The problem pointed out by the article though is that those games are not heavily advertised, if at all.

And it's true. The ads you see on TV are for Assassin's Creed (which as of Unity was openly toxic to women), Final Fantasy, Halo, Gears of War, etc.

Word of mouth alone is not enough to convey a message that gaming is for everyone. The message from the industry must be overt or the stereotypes will persist.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
My girlfriend just bought Bloodborne and killed the first boss.
Be jealous.

Already better than me at it, lol

Innocent posts perhaps, but it's reactions like these that are part of the problem. That a girl would be interested in a game like Bloodborne and actually be good enough at it to beat the first boss should not be surprising in 2015.
 

shiba5

Member
Categories are not the problem, it's the fact that if something is perceived feminine, it's automatically considered less worthy. For example a romantic movie would be seen inferior to an action movie, even if both have equally stupid plotlines. Even girls and women who consume "girl" entertainment do so with more embarrassement about it than boys with their own.

It's sad, but I've come to realize that I've been programmed to think this way too. I subconsciously think, "This isn't really[i/]a game." I've caught myself doing it, and I don't know why because I love all kinds of games and will often buy games based on artwork alone.
I never think that way about more traditional games like GTA V - which I also love despite its problematic parts. (Seriously, I laughed my ass off at that 5 minute long car explosion video posted the other day.)
 

Nikodemos

Member
I read this article the other day and I think what struck me as unsettling was the author railed against gendered gaming experiences but specifically considers anything with violent material to be "male". It doesn't really seem like she's interested in breaking down gender assumptions in media consumption at all. A woman who likes BioShock Infinite is not any less feminine than one who likes Candy Crush. And the article also ladles on a lot of the judgmental "not real games" stuff even while she seems to decry it. I dunno what's with the weird tonality.
Yeah, the article contains a fair amount of "reverse gendering" in and on itself. There is an undertone of "women who like violent games aren't 'proper' women since they're not feminine enough, or at all". I guess the old adage about no real neutral observer keeps being true.
 

shiba5

Member
There is an undertone of "women who like violent games aren't 'proper' women since they're not feminine enough, or at all".

There's truth to that as well. I got a lot of flack from my mom for playing violent games. Then I showed her how much fun she could have sticking arrows into Far Cry 3 baddies. As she happily turned them into pincushions, we came to a mutual understanding: that violent video games can be fun for everyone - even a 65 year old, female, retiree. ;)
 

Grimalkin

Member
My current girlfriend plays a lot of adventure games. She's a Suda51 fan (especially of his older works such as The Silver Case, Moonlight Syndrome etc) and likes a lot of visual novels too. She's played loads of them since the PSX era (she's Japanese and there's boatloads of those kind of games from back then and on the PS2). She also likes the old school JRPGs like those made by Love-de-Lic, Inc (Moon: Remix RPG Adventure, UFO, L.O.L etc). She's 31 and her sister is even a bigger gamer than her. So yeah, they do exist and I think Japan did (and in most ways, still does) a great job of providing to them. Western games don't seem to do as much, imo.

Visual novels and adventure games definitely have a lot of wide spread appeal to both genders, due to their easy pick up and play whilst enjoying an interactive novel/manga/film approach to them.

My opinion aligns with yours, I think Japan has done a much better job making women feel comfortable playing video games than American culture. I am too ignorant to go into why this could be, but it's still the impression I have of Japanese gaming culture.

This is a highly dubious statement, especially since people tear apart "mindless" action films all the time, and concepts like "guilty pleasures" are not a gendered experience. No doubt there are people out there who need to grow up and realize that no gender has a monopoly on types of stories, but you're making some pretty broad assertions.

I read this article the other day and I think what struck me as unsettling was the author railed against gendered gaming experiences but specifically considers anything with violent material to be "male". It doesn't really seem like she's interested in breaking down gender assumptions in media consumption at all. A woman who likes BioShock Infinite is not any less feminine than one who likes Candy Crush. And the article also ladles on a lot of the judgmental "not real games" stuff even while she seems to decry it. I dunno what's with the weird tonality.

A huge problem that I have with being a woman who games is the extent of policing I feel from all sides. You can't win. If I play and enjoy Super Princess Peach, I'm supposed to be enjoying it less because of problematic messaging within the game. To admit that I loved the game is not living up to the feminist standard and I'm "perpetuating the problem". At the same time, traditional male gamers judge me for enjoy a game that is not up to their game-y standards. There is no room for self expression, you have to fit into one of the boxes perfectly or you are removed from the community. I think this is a huge reason women leave gaming behind, why bother jumping through all these hoops when you can easily find a more supportive, welcoming hobby and community?
 
Categories are not the problem, it's the fact that if something is perceived feminine, it's automatically considered less worthy. For example a romantic movie would be seen inferior to an action movie, even if both have equally stupid plotlines. Even girls and women who consume "girl" entertainment do so with more embarrassement about it than boys with their own.

The problem is that they often carry negative meanings. Dudebro and chick flick aren't positive descriptions and have never been. They're a quick way to dismiss something that you at least think you wouldn't like. So that's how they become a big problem. When they're at the point where they're so accepted that they're regularly used to just dismiss large amounts of content. It gets to what you're talking about. It just became acceptable in society to dismiss something that some view as being aimed at girls as being not as good as this other product that's aimed at boys. And rather than pushing back against it, people just ran with it.

It's not just a problem that's constrained within gaming; it happens everywhere in all sorts of societies and cultures. But just because it's a larger, societal issue doesn't mean we shouldn't try to tackle it in within gaming.

I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't tackle it. My point was that what Raggie was describing wasn't something exclusive to gaming. It's something that basically leaked over into gaming from the rest of society.
 

Yopis

Member
Yeah, the article contains a fair amount of "reverse gendering" in and on itself. There is an undertone of "women who like violent games aren't 'proper' women since they're not feminine enough, or at all". I guess the old adage about no real neutral observer keeps being true.


I get the same tone.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
The problem pointed out by the article though is that those games are not heavily advertised, if at all.

And it's true. The ads you see on TV are for Assassin's Creed (which as of Unity was openly toxic to women), Final Fantasy, Halo, Gears of War, etc.

It doesn't matter if they aren't on TV. TV is not the only vector for people to find out about games if they are interested in them in 2015. TV isn't even the second best option for that. They generally don't advertise books on TV either but it doesn't diminish that medium and nobody argues that books are unfriendly to men because the likes of Hunger Games, Twilight, and 50 Shades of Grey are some of the most popular surface level titles of the moment. They're going to advertise games aimed at young men alongside programs and sporting events favored by young men. Taking the prevalence commercials for a certain kind of game or theme in a programming block devoted to a certain demographic of consumer as the totality of the focus and breadth of games as a whole is myopic in the extreme.

Also, Final Fantasy is very female friendly. I'd even argue that the brand is female centric these days. And Assassin's Creed as as whole and Unity in particular are not "openly toxic to women." The games have from the outset had lots of people of color and women in protagonist and important NPC roles and the series story as a whole is a power struggle between two extremely intelligent and powerful female characters that has nothing to do with with traditionally "female" pursuits or landing a man.

Ubisoft just lacked the clairvoyance to realize that the hot button gaming issue of summer 2014 was going to be gender issues when they were planning the game in 2011 and 2012 and struggling to make the engine run on a console in 2013. They didn't let you have a female avatar in the handful of multiplayer missions, it's true. That comes down to lack of time and technical constraints in the face of an immovable project deadline more than ill intent. The game still revolved around the relationship between Arno and Elise, who was a very positive, well written character with importance to the plot beyond being a damsel and had no particular sexual pandering in her design. And they've backtracked hard and redesigned their follow up game to allow a larger playable role for the female protag. Calling it toxic is wild hyperbole.

But again, the games the author wants are already out there and continue to become more numerous. Her Tigerbeat and One Direction obsessed sister's decision to shun the medium due to societal pressure and stereotypes is ultimately down to her rather than games being inherently hostile to women. Some gaming communities are hostile, but the medium as a whole and the people who actually make games are vast and inclusive. Things are not perfect, but they aren't bad and they are constantly improving.

The games are out there, whatever your tastes are. With the advent of Youtube, smart phone app stores, and Steam, the mountain has already come to you; you don't even have to go to it. You just have to have the desire to experience games and that desire has to be stronger than the fear of social stigma from strangers and acquaintances who don't understand the medium. This is has always been a truism of gaming.
 
I read this article the other day and I think what struck me as unsettling was the author railed against gendered gaming experiences but specifically considers anything with violent material to be "male". It doesn't really seem like she's interested in breaking down gender assumptions in media consumption at all. A woman who likes BioShock Infinite is not any less feminine than one who likes Candy Crush. And the article also ladles on a lot of the judgmental "not real games" stuff even while she seems to decry it. I dunno what's with the weird tonality.

Hrm I dunno, I didn't catch that at all. It read as just strongly from her own perspective, maybe we're interpreting the same thing differently. I'd be in agreement if that's how I read it, but I don't have time to reread it atm. Seems in contrast to her general point being that she desires to be able to enjoy games without judgements and qualifiers in her way.
 

Lunar15

Member
The market kept doubling down on boys, both in content and in marketing. And guess what: now it's kind of dealing with that.

I think there's plenty of women's industries that do this too. It's really weird. It's not specific to gaming, but once you double down on a marketing demographic, it's hard to turn back.
 

shiba5

Member
I get the same tone.

As Grimalkin said, we can't really win. If we like Super Princess Peach, we aren't real gamers. If we like Halo, we aren't "ladies".

Speaking of Halo, which already does a pretty decent job with representation, it would be great in a future game with split main characters to have the non-Chief character (ala Locke/Arbiter) be a woman. I would love to play as Linda or Kelly - or even a female Covie - as a main character and not just a co-op partner. Market the game for both sexes and see what happens.
Maybe with more women main characters, the stigma of being "unlady-like" will disappear and it will become just the way things are. Yeah, who am I kidding...
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
One part of the problem is that in this community, anything that's considered feminine is devalued. Games about Transformers, ninja turtles or Batman are okay and good, but games about fashion, ponies, or somesuch is not just silliness. Bright colors are out, grimdark is in. Killing stuff in games is great, exploring romantic relationships is something to laugh at. People can get downright aggressive at the sight of these things.

This is, interestingly enough, a lot of what Anita Sarkeesian's criticism is actually about when you delve into it and also look at her thesis work. Not just in terms of aesthetics but in terms of theme and especially characterization, where female characters either get to be prominent by being masculine or else are coded female in "vulnerable" ways.
 

Nephtes

Member
It doesn't matter if they aren't on TV. TV is not the only vector for people to find out about games if they are interested in them in 2015. TV isn't even the second best option for that. They generally don't advertise books on TV either but it doesn't diminish that medium and nobody argues that books are unfriendly to men because the likes of Hunger Games, Twilight, and 50 Shades of Grey are some of the most popular surface level titles of the moment. They're going to advertise games aimed at young men alongside programs and sporting events favored by young men. Taking the prevalence commercials for a certain kind of game or theme in a programming block devoted to a certain demographic of consumer as the totality of the focus and breadth of games as a whole is myopic in the extreme.

Also, Final Fantasy is very female friendly. I'd even argue that the brand is female centric these days. And Assassin's Creed as as whole and Unity in particular are not "openly toxic to women." The games have from the outset had lots of people of color and women in protagonist and important NPC roles and the series story as a whole is a power struggle between two extremely intelligent and powerful female characters that has nothing to do with with traditionally "female" pursuits or landing a man.

Ubisoft just lacked the clairvoyance to realize that the hot button gaming issue of summer 2014 was going to be gender issues when they were planning the game in 2011 and 2012 and struggling to make the engine run on a console in 2013. They didn't let you have a female avatar in the handful of multiplayer missions, it's true. That comes down to lack of time and technical constraints in the face of an immovable project deadline more than ill intent. The game still revolved around the relationship between Arno and Elise, who was a very positive, well written character with importance to the plot beyond being a damsel and had no particular sexual pandering in her design. And they've backtracked hard and redesigned their follow up game to allow a larger playable role for the female protag. Calling it toxic is wild hyperbole.

But again, the games the author wants are already out there and continue to become more numerous. Her Tigerbeat and One Direction obsessed sister's decision to shun the medium due to societal pressure and stereotypes is ultimately down to her rather than games being inherently hostile to women. Some gaming communities are hostile, but the medium as a whole and the people who actually make games are vast and inclusive. Things are not perfect, but they aren't bad and they are constantly improving.

The games are out there, whatever your tastes are. With the advent of Youtube, smart phone app stores, and Steam, the mountain has already come to you; you don't even have to go to it. You just have to have the desire to experience games and that desire has to be stronger than the fear of social stigma from strangers and acquaintances who don't understand the medium. This is has always been a truism of gaming.

Your argument is flawed, and not just because you left out the major point of what I was saying.

Final Fantasy XV has 0 female playable characters. A first for the series. The one female protagonist in the game, Cidney, is typical eye candy, wearing an outfit no self-respecting female mechanic would be caught dead in...

Unity and Ubisoft in their "no female assassins" nonsense absolutely created an air of toxicity towards women, if not overtly in the game, certainly in their response to the controversy.

Moving on, my point wasn't gender neutral and more feminine games need to be advertised on TV, it's that these games need to be advertised more, period.

The fact that you have to actively look for these games is the problem.

You shouldn't need to seek these games out. They should be as pervasive in the public zeitgeist as Halo, Gears of War, and Uncharted are.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
Your argument is flawed, and not just because you left out the major point of what I was saying.

Final Fantasy XV has 0 female playable characters. A first for the series. The one female protagonist in the game, Cidney, is typical eye candy, wearing an outfit no self-respecting female mechanic would be caught dead in...

Unity and Ubisoft in their "no female assassins" nonsense absolutely created an air of toxicity towards women, if not overtly in the game, certainly in their response to the controversy.

Moving on, my point wasn't gender neutral and more feminine games need to be advertised on TV, it's that these games need to be advertised more, period.

The fact that you have to actively look for these games is the problem.

You shouldn't need to seek these games out. They should be as pervasive in the public zeitgeist as Halo, Gears of War, and Uncharted are.

I think the likes of Candy Crush, Plants vs. Zombies, Angry Birds, Flappy Bird, Words with Friends, Minecraft, and Threes are all at least as big in the mainstream consciousness as Gears and Uncharted. Halo, that's a harder call, but they've had nearly 15 years to build that brand and market it aggressively.

AC has had female Assassins since the first game. Unity had female Assassins and Templars. True, you couldn't play as one of them. But in multiplayer, everyone was literally Arno. They had the same face, same animation, and the same selection of weapons and armor. Which is a clue. They didn't have time to create variants of all of several hundred different pieces of armor you could mix and match for a female mesh, they didn't have female motion data for all the new moves you could do in Unity over previous games, they likely didn't have the memory to implement these extra assets in an engine that already scraped the wrong side of acceptability when it came to performance, and most importantly, they did not have time to implement all of that before their immutable deadline. This is why you didn't have a female player character in the multiplayer component of a game I suspect you did not play. Not because they had some seething resentment toward women.

Final Fantasy is approaching a decade now that Lightning and her sister have been the face of the series as main characters and protagonists across three mainline games. As you say, FFXV has no female playable characters. They've stated they're going with a "just the guys" road trip sort of feel. But those guys are very specifically designed with their mostly feminine features, fashion conscious coordinated wardrobes, and impractical, trendy feathered haircuts. Who is this all for? I'll give you a hint. It's not the stereotypical straight, misogynist dudebros people like to lambast in these discussions.

As for women, Cindy is not a protagonist; she's an NPC. She's a stupid style over substance fan service character just like other minor characters before her like Chocolina and Leblanc. In other words, you're granting her too much importance. We know very little about the story so it's hard to say much, but she's certainly less important than the chastely dressed Lunafreya. Though, you know, the level of judgement you display in saying no "self-respecting" mechanic would dress like her has interesting implications regarding your views on the role of women. It's also easy to refute. Google "sexy mechanic" sometime. I'm willing to bet at least of few of those ladies are actually mechanics and actually self-respecting.

Regarding your last point, well, you're always going to have to seek things out if you ever want to move beyond the least common denominator. They can't just beam knowledge of niche, esoteric, or counterculture works into your mind. As I pointed out above, the popular casual games do have a lot of exposure. It just didn't come from commercials played during football games and action movies. They targeted the markets for those games in different ways.

In the end it's really as simple as just getting in there and actually playing some games. If you actually have interest in the medium, you need to find out what you like rather than have an advertiser groom you, anyway. It's not so hard to take a look through the digital storefronts and just choose what piques your interest. Follow the suggestions the stores give you based on the ones you liked and broaden your experience. Again, it's 2015 and this stuff isn't nearly so hard now. There truly are games for all tastes these days. There are tons of games fitting the criteria in the author's closing statement. Nobody's keeping the author or her sister from gaming but themselves and their preconceptions and hangups.
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Having two daughters, I can tell you that while there aren't necessarily "games for boys" and "games for girls", they tend to perceive a game that has no/few female characters and only a male protagonist as "boy games".

Thankfully, they will still play those games and enjoy them, but it's very clear to me that they would prefer more games gave them the option to play as a girl, and wish more games had great female characters in them.
That seems to be very much an issue. Games for the older teen demographic are often protagonist driven and theb, most of the characters with an agenda are men. Women get completely sidelined.

I don't get why we can't have games where we simply swap around stuff slightly and get an extra female storyline. Considering the general expense for modern games this should be a small percentage. Maybe also a bit better writing.

So yeah, make one of the playable characters in GTA a woman. We already have a pretty diverse cast of assholes and there are tough ladies too. One of my coolest cab drivers in Kathamndu was a lady and she looked straight outta 70s Japan movie with the sports steering weel, headband and cutoff gloves in a rundown Subaru. Should have made a photo, she was awesome.
 
Well, yes, that's why the word problematic was used instead of ghastly or terrible.

There are certainly a lot of positive elements. Peach gets to be the star of the game and goes to save Mario, Luigi, and Toad for a change instead of perennially being the victim.

This doesn't change that the game is still heavily based on gender stereotypes, often extended even to the mechanics, which didn't always sit well with everyone. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy the game, find positive things about it, or not be bothered by these issues, but it doesn't change that nuanced criticism can still occur.

repeat it enough times and parrot it in enough websites and it does begin to carry the same connotation.

again, the gist was that a trope is bad just because its common. And what do we get? a great game, a new spin on the Mario formula, and all down the drain because some adults like to abruptly apply some metric for what is acceptable and not offensive. a penchant for over analyzing and applying their psychoanalytic tendencies to every little thing. saying it hangs on strong gender stereotypes makes me start thinking of "REAL WOMEN™" situations where a female centric character/game has to meet a specific metric of aesthetic/mechanic/technical style otherwise it's not "acceptable".

and it's ok. everyone is entitled to their opinion and to find some objectionable.

but that doesn't mean it always holds merit. if it wasn't the emotions aspect (vibes), it would have been the color motiff (pink and light colors). and if it wasn't that, it would have been the fact peach wore a dress, and an adventurer wouldn't have worn a dress. and so on and so forth as we've been witnessing through these past few years in gaming media.

my niece wasn't concerned with the fact that she used emotions. she is a big mario fan and plays all the games. so the chance to sue princess peach made her ecstatic. But at the end of the day, her enjoyment means little to the idealistic few.
 

PtM

Banned
I think a lot of people ignore this part entirely (and this goes for more than just games. Think about jobs that are considered female jobs. I'll give you an excellent example. A teacher used to be a really respected profession that had prestige. It lost that when it started being perceived as a more female profession. The prestige then went to being a professor which was seen as one more males were in).

A big problem isn't just that games aren't catering to females, but something seen as for females is seen as "lesser". Values that are seen as good for females are not seen as important/prestigious in general. Things that are seen as feminine are seen as ok for females but "lowered" for males. I honestly will say I think it's worse to be a guy who likes stuff perceived as female stuff vs. a tomboy.

A guy liking female stuff is lowering himself to like inferior stuff. It's ok for females cause they are inferior so it's ok for them to like inferior stuff. Where as a tomboy at least is liking the good stuff and is able to be better than most females. As a tomboy I got this attitude a lot. Good for you for liking substantial stuff and not that stupid female stuff (I heard this a lot from my dad's friends). I didn't even think much of it and totally fell into it until pointed out why it's offensive in some college class I took that was looking at social values.
Holy shit, that's a good point!
I read this article the other day and I think what struck me as unsettling was the author railed against gendered gaming experiences but specifically considers anything with violent material to be "male". It doesn't really seem like she's interested in breaking down gender assumptions in media consumption at all. A woman who likes BioShock Infinite is not any less feminine than one who likes Candy Crush. And the article also ladles on a lot of the judgmental "not real games" stuff even while she seems to decry it. I dunno what's with the weird tonality.
Violence being a male thing is a recurring narrative, it may be an established theory.
 

Tapejara

Member
Great read. I've noticed this "gendering-out" among my family members and friends. I think the article makes a great point that we need more women characters and more women making games. The industry has started to head in the right direction as of late, with playable female characters even in typically male targeted games like Call of Duty. We do have a long way to go - and as the article stated we do have to try and dispel the notion that most female targeted games aren't "real games" - but I'm hopeful that games will start to be more accessible on the future*.

*Note, I'm not saying 'get rid of male targeted games.' I still want those games; but we need more variety than M4's and sexual gratuity.
 
My lady played some Mario games when she was a kid and loved it. But that was years ago as she is 36 and the only reason she knows anything about gaming AT ALL is because of me. I just recently convinced her that we "needed" a WiiU so she/we could play some more games together. We play a few games on the PS4 but for the most part, she doesent like gaming simply because it has "too many buttons and is confusing." She likes Mario because there are very few buttons to remember. The WiiU came with SMB 3D and we also got SMB U and DK Tropical Freeze and she loves those.
We started playing the new Laura Croft co-op game and I cant tell you how many times over an hour she complained about too many buttons. Ive never had a gf that took gaming seriously but the too many buttons and the "how do you know what to do" argument always comes up. Especially with fps games, she cant stand the 2 sticks trying to move around.

And forget trying to get her to play something like Arkham Knight, there are 50 million button combinations to learn for 50 million different things. Its easy for me to learn because ive been gaming since my brain can remember but for people who dont keep up with the increasingly more and more complex games, this is much more of a burden than some deem worth it. Probably why the majority of ladies I know that game only do so on mobile/tablet devices. Its easy and requires no time investment learning controls, all time invested is playing the actual game. Not being frustrated with camera controls or learning advanced control schemes or even getting stuck because you dont know what to do.

Anywho, just a bit of my experience. Im sure there is alot that goes into this, I will be curious to see the changes in the future.
 

Wulfram

Member
The problem pointed out by the article though is that those games are not heavily advertised, if at all.

And it's true. The ads you see on TV are for Assassin's Creed (which as of Unity was openly toxic to women), Final Fantasy, Halo, Gears of War, etc.

Word of mouth alone is not enough to convey a message that gaming is for everyone. The message from the industry must be overt or the stereotypes will persist.

Yet as many adult women play games as adult men, so perhaps the message is getting across.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Unity and Ubisoft in their "no female assassins" nonsense absolutely created an air of toxicity towards women, if not overtly in the game, certainly in their response to the controversy.

Yet since the beginning AC has had a large female fanbase. Well before any controversy was raised in Unity.
 

Mael

Member
repeat it enough times and parrot it in enough websites and it does begin to carry the same connotation.

again, the gist was that a trope is bad just because its common. And what do we get? a great game, a new spin on the Mario formula, and all down the drain because some adults like to abruptly apply some metric for what is acceptable and not offensive.

Actually we didn't get a sequel to Super Princess Peach because the 1rst one didn't sell that great.
I mean the game was super freaking old and forgotten before people on the web started making articles about why it could be problematic.
The fate of that branch of Mario game falls squarely on the end of the tepid market reaction more than pundits on the web chastising the game for being too pink or something.
 

Jintor

Member
So, this article is a little strange to me. It's concluded with a big list of things women want from games, and seems to ignore that there are a ton of games that deliver on that, more being made and lots of lots of women playing them.

Point three. The games exist, but the perception remains unchanged.
 

tuxfool

Banned
And my wife was one of them. But once they said that shit, she has sworn off AC forever.

You'd have to ask yourself, why that particular game was different from others. You couldn't play as a woman before (excepting Liberty). And it is something that they seemingly have fixed.

I think there are plenty of reasons to swear off AC in general, but wonky pr in one game not to be one of them.
 

Ke0

Member
That's absolutely disgusting on the part of the Gamestop employees. Both in terms of the ethics of hitting on a customer, but also breaking the first rule of sales as set forth by Harry Selfridge. The customer should always be made to feel welcome and comfortable in the store.

Isn't that how nearly all stores operate? See a customer, stereotype and assume then sell to them based on that, changing your pitch as you get to learn what the customer likes.
 

geomon

Member
My local gamestop is mostly staffed by women, which I think is cool as hell. I like talking games with a diverse group.
 
You'd have to ask yourself, why that particular game was different from others. You couldn't play as a woman before (excepting Liberty). And it is something that they seemingly have fixed.

I think there are plenty of reasons to swear off AC in general, but wonky pr in one game not to be one of them.

She got pissed off at their rationale and stopped wanting to support them because of it. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
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