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BoingBoing: No Girl Wins: 3 Ways Girls Unlearn Their Love of Gaming
- Thread starter Jintor
- Start date
I don't know or care if Quadrophonic was addressing you.
One can also play Nintendonline.
In seriousness though, you talk about the gaming community, whereas Pyrrhus described the gamescape. You've made the absolute claim that one cannot game without the community. And for me, I never said one should or that it's okay to be confined to a perimeter.
Also, strike "gaming community", set "games marketing" etc.
Punchy4486
Banned
My fiance is a lifelong gamer (met her through Giant Bomb actually), but she is terrified of being seen playing games in public (like at arcades or game kiosks in stores) because she feels like she'll be constantly judged by guys (either looked at like a freak show or judged based on her performance and that she'll be "representing women gamers" in their mind). When she was a kid, she felt like just another kid playing video games. As an adult, she feels like an interloper.
She has anxiety issues anyway, but I think this is more than just an extension of that.
And it sucks, cuz it has kept her from having fun in the past.
She also NEVER plays online.
She has anxiety issues anyway, but I think this is more than just an extension of that.
And it sucks, cuz it has kept her from having fun in the past.
She also NEVER plays online.
I don't have anxiety issues but I can easily understand her qualm about being judged based on performance and representing all females.
Because when you suck at something and you are female and females are stereotyped to suck at it, then people start using you as proof. And it really sucks. I'm not all females and just cause I'm not great at gaming doesn't mean that it is because I'm female damnit. I suck at it because I suck at it.
This is actually an obnoxious facet of stereotypes. If I was a guy and sucked at gaming people would understand it's not me and I don't feel this onus that me sucking is helping perpetuate a stereotype. But since I'm female, all the sudden I'm just more proof.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
charlequin
Banned
You're working really hard to come up with ways to say that women who describe the exclusionary behavior that's alienated them fromt he hobby are lying here.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
There are problems when it comes to gender and gaming, but this article is pretty bad. A chunk of it is essentially complaining about how marketing/advertising works and putting that solely on the gaming industry. The part about how her sister just says she hasn't heard of games that might interest her and complains there aren't commercials for those games, that's how every media industry works. Bigger budgets get bigger ads. Bigger budgets have to be safe, they aren't meant for the most part to be the pinnacle of the medium. Same with movies, shit like Transformers and Avengers gets the most ad money, but I doubt a serious critic would consider those among the best films of their time. It's like listening to a couple rap songs on the radio and dismissing the entire genre as shit because no one gave you a customized selection of it on a silver plate.
Missile Defense
Banned
Good read. It helps put into perspective and words things that I think many of us known and feel internally. I think people pick up a lot more from the visuals and audio that they see and hear then creators might think. The tone of a game, whether it be the visuals, audio or nature of the characters and even the game mechanics, even if seemingly subtle can easily be identified as leaning towards males or females. Even if the protagonist is female. I think this is natural human nature, we classify and identify everything we consume or come into contact with. Our sex is often at the core of how we identify ourselves and how we digest all forms of material and so I think it natural for most women to just look at a game and sort or get the innate impression or feeling that "this was not targeted for me" even if the game seems gender neutral to most males.
So I think men may ask themselves: "Why aren't all these games OK for girls?"
I think the answer most of the time might be that they are "OK" or even "great" and many girls are perfectly fine with them, but that doesn't mean the game sports a vibe that jives with their female sensibilities. So I think many games just don't hit the right notes with females or there aren't enough game that do or gaming would be more popular.
If you think about it, the gaming industry sort of looks like a movie industry where 99% of the movies are Kung Fu action movies that guys love. Sure there are plenty of girls that enjoy and appreciate Kung Fu action movies, but most women would look to other forms of entertainment to get their fix.
So I think men may ask themselves: "Why aren't all these games OK for girls?"
I think the answer most of the time might be that they are "OK" or even "great" and many girls are perfectly fine with them, but that doesn't mean the game sports a vibe that jives with their female sensibilities. So I think many games just don't hit the right notes with females or there aren't enough game that do or gaming would be more popular.
If you think about it, the gaming industry sort of looks like a movie industry where 99% of the movies are Kung Fu action movies that guys love. Sure there are plenty of girls that enjoy and appreciate Kung Fu action movies, but most women would look to other forms of entertainment to get their fix.
staticneuron
Member
That makes no sense at all because there is nothing that people can do to exclude you from playing a game you enjoy. Saying someone doesn't feel that games you enjoy are "real" games are an opinion and one that doesn't stop anyone that enjoys a title. Whether it is casual, or as walking simulators, getting validation from someone to enjoy those non multiplayer titles is something that lies with the person playing. Your opinion on a "walking simulator" will not stop me from trying to play "Everyone has gone to rapture" and seeing if I enjoy it.
Look at this...
This article constantly turns what gamers normally debate as the difference between casual and core then assigned them to a gender. I have never met anyone who described angry birds, mario kart, or bejeweled as a girls only game or something a guy should not play. Or a particular stance from society, I could say that I will get looked down upon by certain circles because they believe games and/or animated features are only for kids. Despite the presence of this type of judgement that has not stopped me from enjoying what I wanted to enjoy.
So the first section about disqualification makes no sense. Who is doing this so called disqualification? Why are these people being paid any attention?
Which runs straight into he second one marginalization. Which talks about gaming community as a whole that does this behavior as if it is one single monolithic entity. It is not. So what is the author talking about specifically? Who are they talking to that makes this any different then people being jerks in any other setting? Out of all the racist and sexist things I have heard in online gaming rooms, one thing I have learned is that I have heard that crap in schools, nightclubs and other open areas. That means this is not an issue with gaming it is an issue with society and this is not going to a battle you can win if you think the general habits of society are going to change when approaching them within the confines of the gaming community.
The third point "marketing" is also not a concept limited to gender. I loved the hell out of The Stanley parable. I did not see any big budget commercials, magazine spreads, superbowl ad spots or anything about that title. I would have almost overlooked that title if not for the ability to see what friends were playing on steam. I don't mind heavy action games but also like unique story games and games based on experience.
So reading this article I agree there is an issue with some of what the gaming environment is pushing but I don't see how this can be boxed into a point of view that presents these flaws as if they were aimed only against females.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Video games is the only entertainment medium that has actively managed to clinch to just one gender while generally driving away the other.
The amount of possibilities, growth, and especially money, in this medium has got to be the absolute biggest there is. And all they have to do is target the other half of the population.
I mean what other medium has constantly (and perhaps unknowingly) shunned an entire gender?
Video games will have never reached maturity as an industry until they've successfully targeted both genders. If movies, music, books, and TV can do it so can videogames!
The amount of possibilities, growth, and especially money, in this medium has got to be the absolute biggest there is. And all they have to do is target the other half of the population.
I mean what other medium has constantly (and perhaps unknowingly) shunned an entire gender?
Video games will have never reached maturity as an industry until they've successfully targeted both genders. If movies, music, books, and TV can do it so can videogames!
Gener norms are a tricky business and it's something that affects us all, even when we would liked to claim that it doesn't. People do have a very strong tendency to conform to expectations, including gender norms. Those norms are in a constant flux and they are very different in different cultures and in different times. If people would just stop and think and try to remember, they'd realize gender norms have changed even during their own lifetimes. And still, when talking about the differences between men and women, people are very keen to explain everything with biology, not with social issues. Because if it's all down to biology, then the current state is okay, and nothing will ever change nor should change. Because change is scary.
I did what Pyrrhus suggested, I ignored the norms and I 'just played'. But how many things had to push me into that direction to make me a gamer, when so many other girls did not?
I was born into a family of two brothers, no sisters, and a mother who wasn't very feminine, so my surroundings was unusually masculine. My brothers were much older than me, so I got all their boy toys to play with. My best friends were a super girly girl, a tomboy, and the boy next door. I learned very early on to go between girl and boy cultures. My father actively encouraged me into gaming. He bought me games and subscribed me to a game magazine. I was also very attracted to games since early childhood, anything from playground games to board games to video games. I've always been unusually individualistic and cared very little of what people think about me.
I don't think any girl could have had better conditions to ignore what gender norms say about gaming and 'just play'. But even I didn't escape them completely. I still avoided the more violent games because those were 'for boys'. I'd never played Doom if my brother hadn't literally sat me in the computer chair, started the game and told me to try it. I had one girlfriend who also played games, and only because she had a brother who had practically forced her to try out some games. She would have never learned on her own that she liked gaming. I still remember when we were gleefully blasting enemies in Doom together. That's a common memory for boys in my age, but very uncommon for girls. Gaming just isn't a part of teen girl culture.
Even as an adult who is so aware of gender norms, I sometimes surprise myself by falling into the same 'this is for boys' trap. For example I initially I completely ignored the release of Neverwinter Nights because the advertising was using heavily sexualised images of a female character. I never gave a concous thought to those ads. I never got upset or offended or disgusted because of them. It was not a case of boycotting something because feminism for social justice rraaarww. I just simply skipped everything relating to that game because my subconcous had already tagged the game 'for the boys'.
Funnily they probably used those images in advertising because everyone knows that sex sells. Sex probably does sell games. It also unsells them to others.
I did what Pyrrhus suggested, I ignored the norms and I 'just played'. But how many things had to push me into that direction to make me a gamer, when so many other girls did not?
I was born into a family of two brothers, no sisters, and a mother who wasn't very feminine, so my surroundings was unusually masculine. My brothers were much older than me, so I got all their boy toys to play with. My best friends were a super girly girl, a tomboy, and the boy next door. I learned very early on to go between girl and boy cultures. My father actively encouraged me into gaming. He bought me games and subscribed me to a game magazine. I was also very attracted to games since early childhood, anything from playground games to board games to video games. I've always been unusually individualistic and cared very little of what people think about me.
I don't think any girl could have had better conditions to ignore what gender norms say about gaming and 'just play'. But even I didn't escape them completely. I still avoided the more violent games because those were 'for boys'. I'd never played Doom if my brother hadn't literally sat me in the computer chair, started the game and told me to try it. I had one girlfriend who also played games, and only because she had a brother who had practically forced her to try out some games. She would have never learned on her own that she liked gaming. I still remember when we were gleefully blasting enemies in Doom together. That's a common memory for boys in my age, but very uncommon for girls. Gaming just isn't a part of teen girl culture.
Even as an adult who is so aware of gender norms, I sometimes surprise myself by falling into the same 'this is for boys' trap. For example I initially I completely ignored the release of Neverwinter Nights because the advertising was using heavily sexualised images of a female character. I never gave a concous thought to those ads. I never got upset or offended or disgusted because of them. It was not a case of boycotting something because feminism for social justice rraaarww. I just simply skipped everything relating to that game because my subconcous had already tagged the game 'for the boys'.
Funnily they probably used those images in advertising because everyone knows that sex sells. Sex probably does sell games. It also unsells them to others.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Amazing post. Rings very true to me as well. I grew up with two older brothers. I always preferred playing with their toys rather than mine. And watching him play difficult games was daunting since they had started younger and had more skills and I didn't, but when I saw turn-based stuff like Shining Force that didn't require precise skills, I decided that I wanted to play it, too. (Eventually I did get into more skill-based games but that came later.)
Without having two older brothers, one of whom is a huge, huge gamer, I doubt I'd have gotten into video games at all. It's hard to say, but that definitely made a big difference.
This is really embarrassing, and it's self-reenforcing, unfortunately. The fewer women using voice chat, the more obnoxious people will respond when they do.
It's basically concentrated cat-calling, and large portions of society still think it's ok because "it's just a compliment, why are you such a bitch?!"
After reading the article I felt as though the writer didn't really mention their parent's input into the situation as I feel that will make a big difference moving forward. I'm 29 and my parents are mostly of a generation who hadn't moved on from the videogames are for kids thought process. Luckily they are supportive of all my interests and those of my brothers. Now the generations have really shifted I would hope more parents are able to engage with their children regarding games and help signpost them to the breadth of gaming available and to help dismantle some of the stigma surrounding them; i.e. not forcing or restricting types of games and showing support for all types of games.
I think this post also sums up well a lot of my feelings. A lot of the types of people who call out what "real" games are and are not are likely coming from a place of insecurity in regards to their own identity. I saw it listening to punk and dressing differently as a teen than most of the people at school, but elitism creeps in at all levels. we weren't welcome at a lot of punk gigs featuring street punk or hardcore punk bands as we didn't fit in and weren't wearing their "uniform".
I think this post also sums up well a lot of my feelings. A lot of the types of people who call out what "real" games are and are not are likely coming from a place of insecurity in regards to their own identity. I saw it listening to punk and dressing differently as a teen than most of the people at school, but elitism creeps in at all levels. we weren't welcome at a lot of punk gigs featuring street punk or hardcore punk bands as we didn't fit in and weren't wearing their "uniform".
StealthGoblin
Banned
My girlfriend likes games like assassins creed, life is strange, telltale games' stuff, far cry, GTA etc but she regularly complains that the stories are not compelling enough in the vast majority of games. She is an avid reader with a literature degree and has a huge DVD collection so story is the one thing she wants improved the most.
She doesn't feel odd in shops as she usually knows more about games than the staff. She goes in and gets what she wants so they don't have the opportunity to patronise her.
She doesn't feel odd in shops as she usually knows more about games than the staff. She goes in and gets what she wants so they don't have the opportunity to patronise her.
Lavitz Slambert
Banned
I'm not sure what kind of games she expected out of the industry for it to "grow up with her". Maybe shes talking more about broader culture not changing fast enough for girls to not go the way both their biology and society generally steers them towards, which includes going away from games as part of them "growing up" due to their perception of them, flawed as it is. The games she listed can be played and enjoyed as an adult, though one has to get over being afraid of being seen as "immature". There are plenty of games that have more mature story and characters, that appeal to both genders.
Most of the time when I see these it seems a bit like a victim complex, as the solution is to dig just slightly deeper to find a wider variety of games and/or get past the fear of looking immature just because you like a game like Nintendogs. The broader cultural aspects that effect the situation won't ever fully go away, as culture is created to steer people towards their more "healthy" instincts/natural tendencies and away from their more "unhealthy" ones. They have been steadily improving though and continue to do so, the outrage that the industry isn't bowing down fast enough to their perceived ideal status has always irritated me.
What happens to most kids when they hit teenage is that they leave 'childish' things behind in a rush. One doesn't want to seem immature at 13. At this point boys are likely to switch Mario to Call of Duty. What will girls switch to, when they are at that point? Yes, they could also play Call of Duty but there's a very strong cultural push telling them that wargames are for boys and fashion is for girls. Yes, there are games that they would be likely to pick up, but they are not likely to find them as they're not heavily marketed. Even games that have that marketting push and would likely appeal to teenage girls (such as Final Fantasy) are not being marketed to girls. What really is being marketed to them is casual games like Candy Crush, and they do play those. But casual games are for casual play, not for the sort of immersive experiences that turn people into actual gamers who play as a hobby, not as a timewaste.
And yet all the time we see people question any statistic that shows females might play games other than this. Even on this forum if you get a poll that shows females are on consoles you'll have people say they don't believe it or that most females are on mobile games.
There is a very heavy stigma that females only play those "casual" games. And note, those casual games are always looked down on at the same time. And most feel they have proven their point that females don't game cause they only play "those casual games". Maybe those games aren't seen as female games, but they are seen as the only games females play .
Also, your ideal that people should just get over cultural stigma... people are social creatures and we are wired to listen to what the others think. If we weren't, there wouldn't be such a thing as culture and traditions that people get very stuck on handing down. Yes, some of us it is easier than others (I've never had that much a problem but for me to decide just cause it wasn't hard for me just means that everyone else is the problem is showing no empathy).
You remind me of some one who says we shouldn't put any blame on the bullies when several people bully a kid and the kid finally can't handle it and tries to kill himself. After all, they should just ignore those people. Easier said then done, especially when in his/her POV everyone is telling him/her how worthless he/she is. That gets to you. It's not the same as just ignoring one person.
What society tells you does matter. And the more people who echo it, the stronger the power.
Lavitz Slambert
Banned
I would think something like Tomb Raider, big JRPGs, Bioware games, any kind of platformer or most anything out of Nintendo's catalog would qualify as things that have marketing push that would "appeal" to girls, though you'll have to define more what marketing to girls would mean for something like COD. You say that Final Fantasy isn't marketed to girls but to my remembrance FFXII marketing focused quite a good deal on Ashe while XIII has Lightning as the main character with "My Hands" playing in the trailer.
Pyrrhus
Member
I'm not saying women should just stay offline. I'm saying that while there are places where people are going to be assholes to women on the basis of them being women, those are not the only places where women can go and those aren't the only people they can interact with. Not by a long shot.
There are welcoming communities all over the place these days. I'm sure you would agree NeoGAF qualifies as one, for instance. Women who feel alienated by the places where the assholes hang out have alternatives and need to make use of them rather than trying to endure hateful strangers in unkind places. Similarly, if you don't like the competition and conflict of online multiplayer, there are a great many games that you can play where you will not be forced into competing or feeling judged by others while playing them. And if you still don't want to interact with people, then, yes, there are single-player, offline experiences you can play in secret. (That's my favorite kind of experience, in fact, so there's no disrespect meant in the suggestion.) That is what I am saying.
To be clear, I do think it's important for women to keep plugging on and continuing to be present in these communities. That is what's going to normalize the presence of women in games. Their actual presence. I think the angry, accusatory screeds filled with obtuse academic lingo, derision, and demands are counterproductive to the goal of equalizing the perception of women in games however pleasant the anger and self-righteousness feel at the time.
Again, in the case of that article, my comments aren't making a broad statement about women as a group. I think the sister in the article just doesn't actually want to game and she's giving her sister, who does want her to game, a series of excuses to avoid the conflict an outright refusal might prompt.
The sister received that very customized selection on a silver plate from the author herself and still rejected it.
SolidSnakex
Member
What exactly does it mean to market toward girls? Does it mean to show ads featuring them in it? Does it mean to show a specific type of content?
Anything to not drive them off.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I think more the former than the latter.
If more gaming-related advertising and culture embraced women and showed them being a part of the culture, it would help reinforce the idea that women *are* welcome in games.
I don't think the answer is that we have to make drastic changes to what already exists, but that we need to make what already exists more appealing, and widen the market with more titles that do feature female character either on the cover, or as core protagonists.
Look at a game like Mass Effect. It's widely believed that the female Shephard is the better of the two in terms of in-game interaction and voice acting, yet it wasn't until ME3 that she got an "iconic" look, whereas the generic shaved-head male protagonist was at the center from day one. Imagine the difference if both had been given a "main" face from the outset, and were both treated as canon choices.
It's a good article. The issue is that you shouldn't need to have an environment where people have to feel like they need to 'plug away' to break into a community and enjoy a hobby. You shouldn't have to fight a suffragette war to demand the right to have fun in an online game. We've got a situation right now where every woman needs to be Rosa Parks. Games just aren't important enough to go through that kind of stress except for the most incredibly dedicated and that's not healthy.
Both, and more. Marketing towards girls would include showing female characters more prominently (and importantly, as protagonists rather than sexy eye candy) and show more content that's culturally tagged as okay for girls to like. In other words, less violence and action.
The other important part is where you market. Ads in girl magazines, trailers in chick flicks, banners in websites where girls visit more, TV spots for shows targeted to girls, etc.
I don't know if this is done in other parts of the world, but here where I live, it is not. I do see advertising for games like Candy Crush and 'girl games' like Star Stables that's clearly done to target girls, but that's it.
I think the point you're still missing is that most girls don't ever even get to the point where they would seek out 'safe' places for them in the community or games from the fringes that they would enjoy. They get strong cultural signals that hardcore gaming is not for them, so they aren't going to bother. They won't even try because they don't see this hobby as something that it's worth any effort for them. Why would they?
Coffee Dog
Banned
Great post!
Once you become an enthusiast, of course you're a lot more likely to suffer through the bullshit out of passion. But you don't just develop that enthusiasm or that passion overnight; it has to be cultivated and encouraged, and girls have a thousand different obstacles to reaching that that boys don't have to deal with.
SolidSnakex
Member
That's why CoD is interesting because it does market toward women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pblj3JHF-Jo
The Black Ops ads seem to revolve around showing people of all genders and races in their ads. BO was also the first game to feature a playable female character (in zombies). Of course other entries of CoD take a different approach.
Most ads these days seem to be all about the games. So there really aren't any people shown playing them, you either get CG or gameplay.
So what is it about FF that makes their marketing not toward girls? The marketing-style behind FF seems much more universal in its appeal, sorta like a movie, rather than something that tries to target boys specifically. Sorta like how comic book movies are done where they have great crossover appeal because while the source material may be directed at boys, the actual movies are meant to be universal. Here a bunch of FF ads for example
FF7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9pF9BJQBLo
FF8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ttszlyonn8
FF9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeBLSds3cEc
FF10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvCnN_f8AAU
FF12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcMNmuGu58M
FF13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ABsJgxZH-Q
Like I said, those ads seem pretty universal to me in their appear. I don't think there's anything there that would turn someone off if they're a girl or boy. As FF games pretty much have something for everyone.
It's interesting when we look at some of the data that we do have in terms of gender breakdown for games. 30% of the Tales fanbase is female. Around 40% of the Basara fanbase is female. The female userbase for The Last of Us 40%. Kingdom Hearts also has a huge female userbase
So i'd say developers should be looking at those games and attempt to figure out what exactly is it that they do that allows them to have such a large female fanbase. They're games that have already managed to find the appeal to both genders that so many other games seemingly can't.
Pyrrhus
Member
Fair enough, but I think that's more of a knock-on effect. The majority of the social signals that push girls away from games come from the broader culture rather than emanating out from the specific subculture of gaming. Again, the GG episode was mostly invisible to the uninitiated. It appears to me that the social stigma that drives girls away comes from parents, nongaming media that continues to promote "bang, zap, pow, here come the nerds" shorthand about anything games related, and other girls. Bad behavior from people within the hobby certainly has some blame, but I think broader cultural views are more the cause. Essentially, I think they have to know us before they can hate us for our bad behavior and most don't even get around to knowing us.
This is because I think it's less that the belief is that games are "only for boys" and more the belief that games are "for creeps and weirdos." My perception has been that girls outside the culture who dismiss gaming out of hand do it more to avoid the stink of loserdom rather than fear of the actions of people within the subculture. You know, the same lardass, virgin neckbeards, fedoras, and m'ladies people like to so colorfully deride, even here, when we talk about this stuff. They avoid games because it's like wearing socks with sandals or having a conversation with Steve Urkel about cheese more than because they're afraid some sociopath is going to dox them for having a vagina. It's a more difficult onion to peel when the root emotion is disdain or embarrassment rather than feeling unwelcome.
Are we sure about this? I don't think marketing is an old folks type of field. Plenty of of young creatives in the marketing industry.
I'd imagine a lot of them don't have full creative control over what they produce. It's all conjecture on my part of course.
staticneuron
Member
Well about "those" people who put labels and boxes around casual, females, hardcore and race..... They do that no matter what. It is not only aimed at females. It seems to be some sort of validation or safe zone by putting this in categories that fit their worldview. They are best to be ignored.
And equating social stigma for a private hobby to bullies is not a good argument. Bullies attack people they see or have access to. Social stigma about a hobby should never have the same effect because unless you tell someone you are a gamer, or play games in front of them constantly, they will not know. The disconnect between what people say is true and what you know to be true should be something observed. People say "Gamers do this".... "but I am a gamer."... "Do I do this?" Then when pushed to consider who is wrong the people who are throwing around wide generalization or the perspective of someone who participates in a hobby that does not fit the generalization.
To put it in personal terms, it is me being a Black American, never lived in the ghetto, attended college, knows who is father is and lived with him for years, and don't have anything more than a speeding ticket to my criminal history and almost every black person I have met in my life has similar backgrounds.... To constantly be exposed on the web, visual and print media, that most if not all blacks are poor, criminals, prone to violence and/or are infact staunch racists aimed at taking the white man down doesn't make me question myself. I know who I am. I find these very loud and ignorant cries coming from "those" people and they have no idea what they are talking about and might be partially insane. You cannot control the world, what you can do is control your reaction to it.
It's hard to ignore them when they are everywhere. That's the point. They are culture and they do influence people (peer pressure and all that). It's not like it's just one person saying it, it's you hear it from all over. You really don't get this, do you? Just because it's easy for you to ignore it doesn't mean it is for everyone. And even then, you may not even realize that it is affecting you and your viewpoints. And, when it's more than just one person saying it, it does get to you. You may not even realize it happening. It's something you just take for granted. Using me for example. I'm a tomboy. All my life I was told about how it was great that I actually liked "good" stuff and interesting stuff and not that boring female stuff. I took for granted stuff associated with male interests = good, female = only good for females. I didn't even realize what I was doing until I took a class that pointed out that attitude and how it also perpetuates female as inferior (and how stuff associated with females gets seen as inferior just cause it's associated with females). And how it is a way to paint females as lesser (your interests are lesser. It's ok cause you are a female so we don't expect you to be any better). And also how if something gets associated with being feminine it makes it look bad (being a teacher used to be a prestigious position until it started being seen as a female position. Then that prestige went to professor which was still seen as a more male dominated profession).
The stuff is insidious.
It's so easy to tell some one else to "just ignore it". How about instead we try to tell people to stop trying to perpetuate the stupid stuff. Sure, you won't change everyone, but culture/society doesn't change if you tell people just to ignore the stupid stuff. And it will affect them.
You don't change culture/society by ignoring it. You change it by pushing back and pointing out where things need to be changed. Not just telling people to just ignore it.
Also, your comment about me comparing it to bullying? Once again don't get at all what I was saying. I was using bullying to show that if you are constantly told something by several people, you do have a harder time ignoring it and you do start paying attention to it. Even if you think they are wrong/stupid, it still gets to you and it still works its way into your subconcious.
Lol, nobody did that.
will read the full article later, but what you have quoted here is simply not for everyone out there. not every girl thinks the same.
i hate this "perception" of "oh, we have to appeal to girls" or "we shouldnt be sexists in videogames" bla bla bla.
games should just be games. they should tell a story or offer a certain type of gameplay to a certain audience.
i never heard of the movies industry that they, as a collective tried to appeal the deaf and blind people. or a certain type of no movies-watching folks.
of people are interested, they will watch/play. the problem of gamers is, that there are people out there who are simply basement dwellers who try to be "masterrace".
when i was a kid, there were 2 girls in kindergarten who swapped gameboy games. none of us had problems with it.
i think this whole discussion came up with the internet. my two little sisters have played games too, but they simply have other interests these days.
i see games as watching movies or reading books. games shouldnt try to appeal a certain audience, it should be the other way around. i know tons of girls who are into the expendables or fast and furious movies, so i dont get this whole discussion.
i hate this "perception" of "oh, we have to appeal to girls" or "we shouldnt be sexists in videogames" bla bla bla.
games should just be games. they should tell a story or offer a certain type of gameplay to a certain audience.
i never heard of the movies industry that they, as a collective tried to appeal the deaf and blind people. or a certain type of no movies-watching folks.
of people are interested, they will watch/play. the problem of gamers is, that there are people out there who are simply basement dwellers who try to be "masterrace".
when i was a kid, there were 2 girls in kindergarten who swapped gameboy games. none of us had problems with it.
i think this whole discussion came up with the internet. my two little sisters have played games too, but they simply have other interests these days.
i see games as watching movies or reading books. games shouldnt try to appeal a certain audience, it should be the other way around. i know tons of girls who are into the expendables or fast and furious movies, so i dont get this whole discussion.
staticneuron
Member
I agree with you to an extent but you are arguing two different points and trying to overlap them. When it relates to gaming you are not talking about the entire culture being that way just certain groups within that culture representing that behavior. And they are most likely representing a point of view instilled in them by a patriarchal society. Just as I mentioned in a post before, pointing out this behavior being problematic in the larger part of society is more beneficial than pointing it out in smaller gaming subculture groups.
And I only recommend ignoring things that are done on purpose. By all means if you feel there would be good to be done by talking to everyone that is fine. It is a personal observation that some who promote this behavior have their views and confirmation biases as deeply held as a religion. How often do you see large groups of people being talked out of a belief structure?
I just think it is very important to identify who to talk to, when to address them and the best manner to do so as the best way to start the ball rolling on change.
To be perfectly honest I don't see much about any society or culture that gives me hope in people as whole. Bright spots here and there but in general it seems many people are jerks on purpose.
Yeah, but people and cultures do change. I mean honestly I'd say today as a culture we are still far better than it used to be. You don't have that happen by just ignoring people and not pushing back. Maybe you won't change that asshole, but others will see you don't condone him and actualy condemn him. And the more people see other people condemn actions we don't like, the more it will be seen as the more normal behavior.
As I said, we are social/pack creatures and peer pressure has a lot of affect on us. For bad *or* good.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Fucking hell....
Sorry, but that amounts to little more than blaming the victim. Women get harassed in all kinds of real life contexts, too. It's an effective way any of excluding women from making inroads into spaces that are male dominated. It won't get better until a significant majority of the people already in an established culture decide they won't stand for it.
That's the hope here. That a new generation of gamers will decide that they want to include women and will play a role in making it happen.
The fuck is wrong with you?
Messofanego
Banned
*scratches head while reading that whole thing*
#NotAllGirls
Seriously, this idea that gaming is "appealing to women" is pretending like gaming was a boy's club that girls weren't allowed to join in until recently. I don't know what else to say other than that this sounds a lot like when people complain about "minority group being pandered to" when the latest AAA or even indie game features a character who is a minority. And yes, people shouldn't be sexist in video games because being sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic or otherwise is a pretty bad thing to be in the 21st century.
I really hope your are trolling. This is hitting so many stereotypes, it just has to be sarcastic.