• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

BoingBoing: No Girl Wins: 3 Ways Girls Unlearn Their Love of Gaming

My sister (23) always feels uncomfortable in Game Stop.

She likes games like GTA and Zelda, but shopping in a game store, the workers try to awkwardly flirt with her or steer her towards games like Wii Fit which she has no interest in, so she doesn't go the game store anymore and just buys everything online.

She also doesn't dare use a headset when playing games online. Which is pretty sad that she feels she can't do that.

I feel uncomfortable in EBGames. The workers have to stare at everyone that comes in and nag. That's their job. You get used to it if you go regularly--and buy things. If you go regularly and don't buy anything they'll stare even more.

About the headset, that only apply to shooters and most of the players in those are 9 year old boys with high pitch voices. I can't stand that at all.

Playing online is kinda like playing Dungeons and Dragons. You need your own group.
 
I feel uncomfortable in EBGames. The workers have to stare at everyone that comes in and nag. That's their job. You get used to it if you go regularly--and buy things. If you go regularly and don't buy anything they'll stare even more.

About the headset, that only apply to shooters and most of the players in those are 9 year old boys with high pitch voices. I can't stand that at all.

Playing online is kinda like playing Dungeons and Dragons. You need your own group.

It's not even close to the same thing. There's typical GS employee awkwardness, and then there's "omg there's a girl in a GameStop" nuttery.
 

Jintor

Member
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.
 
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

Hmm... thinking back I'd say it's not the norm but it's not uncommon, either. Probably about 1/4-1/3 of the times I've been in a GameStop there's been female staff present.
 
Back in the early 90s, before the internet took off, I played a few MUDs and there were lots of women in those and they were very flirty. The games were mostly about role-playing. Basically, the opposite of Destiny.

I wonder what happened to the girl I married in-game. She was from an American First Nation.
 
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

I have seen a few. When I used to go there. They would usually ask dumb questions. Like "Oh, I've never seen this game. Is that good." and I would sigh and answer truthfully "No, it's terrible." And she would look at me crosswise, not daring to ask why I'm buying it then.
 

xevis

Banned
Her Tigerbeat and One Direction obsessed sister's decision to shun the medium due to societal pressure and stereotypes is ultimately down to her rather than games being inherently hostile to women. Some gaming communities are hostile, but the medium as a whole and the people who actually make games are vast and inclusive. Things are not perfect, but they aren't bad and they are constantly improving.

The subtext here is that gaming isn't the problem, women are. Really? Ugh.

FWIW, I do not believe the article raised any controversial opinions. It's pretty clear that game culture in general is not hospitable to anyone whose tastes do not extend to "core" games or games with overtly male subject matter. For evidence you need look no further than the derision heaped upon anything with bright colours or mechanics that do not involve neck stabbing. You can see this in pretty much any Nintendo thread around here.
 

Helznicht

Member
My wife just crested Paragon level 200, with 2 level 70 characters in Diablo 3. A Barbarian and a Templar.
She is 39 years old.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
The subtext here is that gaming isn't the problem, women are. Really? Ugh.

What? No. What a ridiculously incendiary misinterpretation. The problem is worrying too damn much about what other people think and not actually bothering to look at anything beyond the commercials they play during Monday Night Raw when a vast landscape of well made, inexpensive adventure, puzzle, walking sim, and VN games that fulfill the criteria stated by the author await literally a few clicks away. I'm not making any broad statement about women. I'm disagreeing with the broad statement the author of the article tried to make based entirely off the hangups she and and her sister have.
 

Zambayoshi

Member
A solution may be that instead of (or in addition to) saying that games aren't just for boys, there needs to be more games made by women, for women (as the article says). It's all very well to say that games like CoD or FIFA are for girls AND boys, but in reality many girls just aren't interested in the aggressiveness of those games.

Games like Gone Home, Life Is Strange, Journey and other games, where the point is not to kill things, beat people/challenges or get a high score, are slowly showing the way for more women to find something interesting for them in a game. This doesn't mean that women shouldn't play CoD of FIFA if they want to, but having a broader variety of gameplay systems as well as subject matter will mean that there is something for the many women that aren't into aggressive or high-pressure games that require twitch reflexes.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all women don't like aggressive games, or even that non-aggression is a 'female' trait, but take a look at the kinds of films and television series that are enjoyed by more female audiences. It makes sense that female audiences might skew more towards certain kinds of game as well. I'd be very interested to see market research on what game types are preferred by women, but it would necessarily be a bit hit-or-miss because there may not be established genres or references for the games that women would prefer. It'd be a bit like saying (and I'm simplifying it a lot) which kind of food does someone prefer and not including vegetarian choices.
 

xevis

Banned
What? No. What a ridiculously incendiary misinterpretation. The problem is worrying too damn much about what other people think and not actually bothering to look at anything beyond the commercials they play during Monday Night Raw when a vast landscape of well made, inexpensive adventure, puzzle, walking sim, and VN games that fulfill the criteria stated by the author await literally a few clicks away. I'm not making any broad statement about women. I'm disagreeing with the broad statement the author of the article tried to make based entirely off the hangups she and and her sister have.

I'm struggling to understand. On the one hand you say you're not blaming women. On the other hand you are saying they (women) should just ignore the mainstream gaming culture that rejects them and play on the fringes. Your position literally goes against the central thesis of the article: that women are gendered out of gaming through a process of disqualification, marginalisation and marketing.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
As an MMO'er, I think girls are well-represented in that genre, and I'd say among both WRPG and JRPG fans there are plenty of women. My wife plays these games. It does take a strong woman to persevere through some of the bullshit though. "Sexy" armor, online harassment, etc. I do think that we could do a lot better job as gamers making online games more appealing to women.

Great article and, as a father, gamer, and developer, I agree. I'm cognizant enough to recognize and see the issues that she brings up, even though I don't even dare try to put myself into her shoes because as a guy who has been playing games for 30+ years, I can't have her exact perspective. I've totally observed it, though.

My wife is a gamer. Nowhere near as much as she used to be, though. One of the first questions she asked me when I told her I played games was if I knew when Baldur's Gate was coming out, because she loved the D&D games like Menzoberanzan and Ravenloft and wanted a new D&D game. She played Nethack a ton. Borrowed my N64 to play Ocarina of Time. Greatly enjoyed puzzle games like Kablooey! on the SNES. She'll destroy anyone in any version of Civ. So when I ask why she isn't as interested in gaming as she used to be, it isn't because she's a grown up or has developed other hobbies, etc. It's because you have to wade through a lot of KABLAM BOOM POW BOOBS SEXY to find things now. While searching for games was definitely a thing in the past, I do wonder about the subconscious effect that current marketing has in creating a sense of things not being for her anymore.

My daughter, 9, is a more interesting case. She loves games of all kinds, mostly because my children (I have a 13 year old son, too) were brought up in a gaming household. My daughter desperately wants to be part of the gaming community at large, but even at 9 she feels pushed away by many things. She'll often ask me, uncomfortably, why is such and such female character not wearing enough clothes. Or why a character feels the need to be so sexy. Why does female armor look so much more flimsy than the exact same classes male counterpart armor?

It's sad as a father and eye opening as a developer. It makes me strive to do better wherever I can.

Interesting. I have a daughter who is a little bit older (10). We're a household of gamers, and she enjoys playing. For her, the skimpy outfits don't register, maybe because she follows a lot of pop culture stuff, which I don't really like, but whatever. My daughter's feeling of being pushed away has to do more with a lack of female protagonists. With very rare exceptions, she puts games with male leads in the "this is a boy game" category. Especially when any female characters exist as props or eye candy, or both.

There need to be more female leads, and not just objectified ones either. My daughter has always been fascinated with Mirror's Edge. I wish more games had protagonists like that one. Give us cool, strong heroines instead of Generic White Male #372. Not that your lead can't be a white guy, but 95% of all big-budget games shouldn't follow that same recipe.
 
again, the gist was that a trope is bad just because its common. And what do we get? a great game, a new spin on the Mario formula, and all down the drain because some adults like to abruptly apply some metric for what is acceptable and not offensive.

The critique of Super Princess Peach has never been that something about it was bad because it was "common." The critique, rather, is that by playing into ideas about women that are both stereotypical and negative (like "women are hysterically emotional about nothing") it labels them in a confining and dismissive way that male characters aren't as frequently subject to. And "down the drain" how, exactly? The game came out, it sold pretty well, a ton of people enjoyed it, you still see it come up to this day as an entertaining game from both men and women... Even the article in the OP mentions the game only as a good, entertaining game that her sister enjoyed and wished she could recapture the experience of. The idea that there's been some disastrous effect because people point out a problem (not a disaster or dealbreaker, just a problem) in the game's portrayal is a straw man you've invented for yourself.

What? No. What a ridiculously incendiary misinterpretation. The problem is worrying too damn much about what other people think and not actually bothering to look at anything beyond the commercials they play during Monday Night Raw when a vast landscape of well made, inexpensive adventure, puzzle, walking sim, and VN games that fulfill the criteria stated by the author await literally a few clicks away. I'm not making any broad statement about women. I'm disagreeing with the broad statement the author of the article tried to make based entirely off the hangups she and and her sister have.

Your position is literally that women are to blame if they don't actively ignore every effort to keep them out of the hobby. It is not reasonable to hold one group to that standard when the primary audience is composed of people who are welcomed with open arms, without any cultural resistance.
 
The article is spot on.

I've seen everything she talks about happening to family members of mine. My sister was an even bigger gamer than I was when we were kids - she was the one that got me into JRPGs. She used to beat bosses for me when they were too hard.

And then as soon as she became a teen, facing pressures to fit in and be "ladylike", she abandoned gaming altogether. She hasn't picked up a controller in forever.

My niece is also a gamer, and huge Sonic fan. Just recently, she came home and threw away her Sonic backpack, because the other kids at school told her Sonic was "for boys." She's only 6! It's disheartening to see what the article talks about already happening even at her age.
 
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

Yeah, every other time I go in to an EB there's generally at least one female staff member, which is always nice to see. (Of course, after Kotaku's article about treatment of EB workers I wonder if they're all dying inside.)

Great to see a shout-out to Good Game and Spawn Point, OP! It's always wonderful to see little girls writing into Spawn Point, and hopefully kids seeing Hex on their screens each week breaks down that barrier a bit.

I think the issue is primarily advertising. I played a lot as a kid with friends, but I didn't have a console myself until I could afford it as a teenager. I'd only gotten back into gaming in high-school because a friend was showing me - look how much everything has changed! For me, what sucked me back in was all the incredible things games were doing with story - obligatory Final Fantasy VII as an example. Then there was Kingdom Hearts, Devil May Cry, God of War, Silent Hill, Ico/Shadow the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid, etc.

My older sister gamed a little when she was younger (Pac-Man!), but was never interested afterwards. I was showing her The Last of Us and The Witcher 3 recently, and she just couldn't believe where gaming was currently at. I guess the biggest issue - which the article touched on - is that mainstream gaming in the eyes of the non-gaming public is either COD, GTA, FIFA, or something Nintendo. I think it'll keep getting better though, especially since a lot of the big companies are trying to make an effort to be more inclusive. COD, Halo, FIFA giving playable female options are great examples of this - even better if they show female characters in their advertising.

I can only offer up my own sample size here as an adult, but out of my female friends from high-school/uni: there's a small portion that don't game whatsoever, there's a group that don't console game but do generally play phone games, and then there's the other group that are consistently gaming using console/PC. (I would say a lot of them probably gamed when they were younger, stopped for a decade, and then started again as a teenager/adult.) Props to the power of the Wii, friends that never gamed in their life - or since! - had one. One of my best friends doesn't play games, but she still bought a Wii before I did. She also brought an 360/Kinect, and barely used it. Gimmicks break down barriers.

Wiis, man, breeding like rabbits. Really impressive, Nintendo.
 

weekev

Banned
So much this. My wife and I aren't pregnant yet, but the scenario you present is one of my fears. The other fear being that if we have a boy I will be completely lost attempting to mentor him in sports... D:

Fatherhood can't be easy either gender your kid ends up...can it?
Well I have a 5 year old who is just getting into gaming. She loves anything in the Mario universe, Minecraft, Flower, Splatoon and watching me play Rocket League.

I think the problem at the moment is that the main AAA titles are all under pressure to justify their costs so they are all, in general, targeted at males over the age of 15.

It would be a risk for a publisher to spend the type of money that GTA costs and target a female audience.

That being said you've got games like Horizon and Wild popping up which are looking to be a different kind of AAA experience and one which I would say is gender neutral.

I personally think it would be tough to make a fully targeted game for the female audience without it being patronising or just plain shit.
 

Victrix

*beard*
I personally think it would be tough to make a fully targeted game for the female audience without it being patronising or just plain shit.

Something I legitimately have trouble with is figuring out how the gender assumptions on what is male or female focused aren't inherently sexist to begin with.

Or to put it another way, rather than specifically targeting gender, the ideal would be not excluding a gender, in any number of ways.

In isolation, a game with traits X/Y/Z is just that. Maybe 70% of one gender prefers X/Y/Z, no big deal. Whether those preferences are societal or genetic, nature or nurture, that's demographic targeting - and you don't see many people raise a stink if a genre doesn't appeal to you.

What is a problem is if trait Z happens to be 'half naked women with gigantic tits'.

And obviously on a larger scale, cultural problems within communities that are exclusionary, but that's a much bigger fish to fry.
 

Vitacat

Member
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

Very common in my town. My closest GS seems to have more female than male staff, at least when I'm there, which isn't that often. Including managers.
 

jello44

Chie is the worst waifu
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

I'd say out of the few I usually frequented, there was at least one female employee. One was a manager.
 

weekev

Banned
Something I legitimately have trouble with is figuring out how the gender assumptions on what is male or female focused aren't inherently sexist to begin with.

Or to put it another way, rather than specifically targeting gender, the ideal would be not excluding a gender, in any number of ways.

In isolation, a game with traits X/Y/Z is just that. Maybe 70% of one gender prefers X/Y/Z, no big deal. Whether those preferences are societal or genetic, nature or nurture, that's demographic targeting - and you don't see many people raise a stink if a genre doesn't appeal to you.

What is a problem is if trait Z happens to be 'half naked women with gigantic tits'.

And obviously on a larger scale, cultural problems within communities that are exclusionary, but that's a much bigger fish to fry.
I think the main issue is that the biggest games ie the games with the biggest budget, clearly target a male audience. At the end of the day, in general, women like different things to men. Whether that is nature vs nurture or a social thing doesnt matter. It is a fact and its not sexist.

When AAA big budget games clearly contain only things that would be considered "for boys" it creates this whole self fulfilling prophecy that games are for boys.

There are some great examples of gender neutral games such as mirrors edge, and the upcoming Horizon, however there are no AAA games solely targetted at women because of the barriers already created by the gaming industry.

The good thing is the fact that the indie scene has so many games that are not targetted at any one demographic and are just plain fun, because I see indies as the future of gaming and as a father and a gamer, I know which games are likely to increase my daughters love of gaming and what to avoid.
 

Silraru

Member
It's an interesting read but I don't think the article actually reveals anything new compared to what has already been talked about.

About the first point: games are for boys and the "games" that girls play are not games at all. The games for boys feel comes from the culture and can come from people with a lot of influence including family, friends, peers, teachers etc. My personal observation is that games are considered to be for children. It something to be put away once a person grows up. This is especially true among older generations. (My parents and their generation for sure. I'm in my thirties btw) I am in the industry myself and I am sad to see young people, even young men turned away from the industry because it's for children. I had a friend asked me to talk to someone she know that was interested in taking post secondary studies hoping to end up in the industry only to hear later on he was nagged into abandoning his dream by his parents. For girls, though, the social pressure is even more so than boys. According to society, teen girls are suppose to be into looks, fashion, make-up. They are suppose to talk about boys and dating. Video game is not part of the norm. I've had peers who snobbed at me for liking video games at high school. In a sense, it is true that a girl decides whether or not to give up video games but it takes a lot of pride, self-confidence to overcome peer pressure not to abandon video games at that age. It's hard to go against peer pressure to conform. Also there's the perception about what is video game and what is not. Whether mobile games are counted as video games. Whether <insert whatever game that should not fit the definition> is video game is still debated. Seriously, solitaire, minesweeper, and tetris are video games and so on. But there will be people both that do and do not consider themselves video game enthusiasts that will argue what counts as games and what does not. The perception needs to change from both within and outside the community which is hard to do. Unfortunately, even something like story vs gameplay divides people. People arguing whether turn based or action based game are more "progressive" etc do exist. I don't see this problem going away until people recognize, games are interactive entertainment that people use to relax and have fun, whether the game be candy crush, angry bird, halo, final fantasy, solitaire or tetris.

The second point about gaming objectify women, and more so, male gamers objectify women. I feel this perception is very very sad. It's a stereotype of male gamers. It is a disservice to both men and women for anyone to hold such stereotype. Yes, I've met male gamers who will hit on everything and anything that moves but I've also met a lot of male gamers that are respectful and helpful even before they find out I'm a girl. They remain that way even after finding out I'm a girl. They treat me no different than other males online. Of course, online communities vary from game to game. I tend to stay away from online communities that are known to be more toxic. Yes, it is up to the community to present itself better but at same time, if a girl holds such view and don't bother playing games is missing out. There are single player games. As for boys that are around and judging, that part ties into the first point. So I don't feel the need to say much more on it. As for objectifying women in games, yes that is true. It is a hotly contested topic even among women. However, many games are not made that way. Games like Kirby, Yoshi's Island, Animal Crossing, Pokemon, Harvest Moon etc do exist. I suppose the visibility of such games does tie into the third point.

Third point: games are marketed at boys. This is quite true. I have nothing to add. I have heard stories from coworkers about marketing where female characters are pushed to the side or removed from game cover art. It is unfortunate. This is definitely something the industry can improve on.

However, to the conclusion of the articles though: The games that is desired by the author and her sister: She wants to play games where women make the world beautiful, save the day, make friends, or romance boys. She wants to play games without killing, without rape, without weaponry... If someone truly wants to play video games, they will look for them. Of course, I suppose that ties into the third point, marketing.

Personal thoughts here. It definitely is not always rosy being a girl who loves games. It does take self confidence to not worry about what the world says. As I mentioned I did get snobbed by peers. I do also remember playing Breath of Fire in comp class (after my work was all done) and the boys telling me what I should or should not do. Perhaps, video game parents can help teach their sons that games are not just for boys and teach their daughters it's ok to love games. Don't worry about what the world tells them. Play the games they like. Indeed the industry can help by making more diverse games visible to the general public and really perhaps stop and really think about why certain arguments are even there trying to define what's a video game and what's not.

Welcoming non gaming females into the community is not something that has easy solution. There are many females who want female protagonist that they can identify with. There are females who love cute stuff. There are females who love good love story with hot male protagonist. (I have had a girl who never play video game come to my place and wanted to try ff8 because Squall looked cool.) It's a matter about finding a game that they might like. Many probably will need help and advice and someone willing to be patient enough to teach them. Breaking down the social conceptions they might have about gaming. That's really probably a start.

Sorry for the long blurb. I really feel like getting all this off my chest after reading so many such threads.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
I'm struggling to understand. On the one hand you say you're not blaming women. On the other hand you are saying they (women) should just ignore the mainstream gaming culture that rejects them and play on the fringes. Your position literally goes against the central thesis of the article: that women are gendered out of gaming through a process of disqualification, marginalisation and marketing.

What's wrong with playing on the fringes? I play there often myself. There's much more to games than Call of Duty and FIFA, though those are the games you see advertised most frequently. Why should a casual consumer of video games care if their game of choice is the most expensive title of the year or not?

I don't think women who like a certain kind of game need to necessarily need to worry about being accepted by a group of people who play in different genres on different hardware and formats. You don't even need to consider them part of the same audience. I'm not certain the people who make and market that kind of game even do. To use an analogy, do you think the Sundance set loses sleep over what Avengers fans think of the latest indie darling?

You are never, never going to have an 80 million dollar match 3 game or walking simulator or visual novel. The audiences into that sort of thing won't accept the stipulations and price tags that the teenage COD bros have been trained to. The publishers couldn't make back that kind money on that kind of game. That doesn't mean those kinds of game aren't games, but the formats, audiences, and expectations are widely divergent.

As I said, I think the variety and quality of titles are already there. You can play them on PC, on your phone, on your browser, and even on dedicated consoles in many cases. More women need to find the games and spend money on them at this point. It's there, it's ready. If you want to be represented, well, you need to represent. As Reggie said in an unrelated context: Play. The. Games. Or more accurately, spend money on them.

Or better yet, make them yourself. Don't expect middle aged, middle class white guys with computer science backgrounds or the cold, calculating money men they answer to to be able to represent you adequately. If they somehow manage it, that's great. But usually you get inauthentic, pandering crap like the writing in dontnod games.

But regardless, you can't expect the big players to all at once ignore what an established, deep pocketed audience wants in favor of a smaller, less proven, less spendy one. They are rapidly making concessions, though. They'd like your money too if they could have it. Is the current path of trying to include more female and minority presence in those big tentpole games not progress?

As the casual, more feminine games have started making more money I think we've certainly seen the big publishers take notice and make games more tailored to that audience rather than trying to retrofit premises, mechanics, and delivery methods for games aimed at teenage boys on dedicated consoles. But they're not just going to give up their bread and butter. Those traditional audience games make serious money. And that's all they really care about.

In the meantime, yes, play the smaller stuff. Those developers are more focused, more personal, and more agile. Being on the fringe isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unless of course you view this all as a zero sum proxy culture war to be won or lost.
 

chiimisu

Member
My sister (23) always feels uncomfortable in Game Stop.

She likes games like GTA and Zelda, but shopping in a game store, the workers try to awkwardly flirt with her or steer her towards games like Wii Fit which she has no interest in, so she doesn't go the game store anymore and just buys everything online.

She also doesn't dare use a headset when playing games online. Which is pretty sad that she feels she can't do that.

I'm the same. It's hard for me to walk in the game stores all by myself, without my boyfriend or at least female friend. It becomes super awkward really quick. Why can I enter, for example, book shop without any weird looks piercing my back or awkward attempts to hit on me, because HURR DURR I'M GIRL WHO PLAYS VIDEO GAMES? I've never been hit on by book shop clerk because I READ BOOKS. And all that.
 

xevis

Banned
What's wrong with playing on the fringes? I play there often myself. There's much more to games than Call of Duty and FIFA, though those are the games you see advertised most frequently. Why should a casual consumer of video games care if their game of choice is the most expensive title of the year or not?

The issue being raised here is that women have no place in mainstream gamer culture. Unlike you, they're not on the fringes by choice; they're there because that's where the culture pushed them and their "(lol) games".
 

Pyrrhus

Member
The issue being raised here is that women have no place in mainstream gamer culture. Unlike you, they're not on the fringes by choice; they're there because that's where the culture pushed them and their "(lol) games".

If the mainstream is grimdark war games where you shoot people in a competitive multiplayer online setting and you don't like shooting or grimdark settings or competitive online play, what is anyone supposed to do? Does the existing mainstream need to stop liking that stuff and start liking the stuff you like en masse to accommodate your feelings? If you don't like that sort of thing, and I don't particularly myself, it's okay. It just means your tastes don't line up with the mainstream. There are worse things.

My whole point is that it doesn't matter. We are legion. You don't fit with one granfalloon, go find another you do. Your gang doesn't have to be the most numerous one. How many girl focused or casual focused gaming sites are there at present? A lot, right? So make that your homepage instead of Gamefaqs or 4chan or wherever the people you hate hang out. This isn't like being a D&D nerd in the Midwest in 1978. It's relatively simple to find a community of like-minded enthusiasts these days.
 

xevis

Banned
If the mainstream is grimdark war games where you shoot people in a competitive multiplayer online setting and you don't like shooting or grimdark settings or competitive online play, what is anyone supposed to do? Does the existing mainstream need to stop liking that stuff and start liking the stuff you like en masse to accommodate your feelings? If you don't like that sort of thing, and I don't particularly myself, it's okay. It just means your tastes don't line up with the mainstream. There are worse things.

Once again, the issues raised in the article are not about what girls do and don't like. The issue is that as girls grow up the only message they receive from mainstream game culture is (paraphrasing) "Tits or GTFO". They are literally being pushed out on account of their gender.
 
My whole point is that it doesn't matter. We are legion. You don't fit with one granfalloon, go find another you do.

Which is exactly the point of the article, that women are finding something better to do with their time because of all the asshats who hassle them or tell them to suck it up, and that leaves gaming as a poorer, shittier community as a result.
 

Lime

Member
Which is exactly the point of the article, that women are finding something better to do with their time because of all the asshats who hassle them or tell them to suck it up, and that leaves gaming as a poorer, shittier community as a result.

As well as the ones who tell women to be satisfied with playing on the fringes and implicitly accept the exclusion, marginalization and harassment in the mainstream.
 

spekkeh

Banned
maybe videogames didn't grow up with me
runs a One Direction fan Twitter 

Riiiight. Late edit: wait she might actually tacitly have meant what I say below.

I think a problem many games have, both in perception and to an extent reality, is that living in fantasy worlds is conducive to wish fulfilment. And wish fulfilment is especially sought after by adolescents. In a relatively recent study by Ip (2011)--I don't have access to the paper here but I thought it was something along the lines of 40->90% respectively, in the eighties the Hero's Journey narrative structure was pretty popular, but nowadays is all but the core structure of every story based game made. This idea of going from zero to hero is especially popular with boys. Who didn't feel like a zero during his adolescence? (that's of course a second problem in the perception of games, that they're squarely aimed at zeroes.) The reward of being good at the game is power and having your Witcher getting to shag all those hot sorceresses.

Girls are probably less interested in becoming a hero, so the large majority of games don't crucially speak to their wish fulfilment during their adolescence. Instead the prototypical girl might become interested in boy groups, desirable men who sing about love to them, so they can have a wish of one day getting such a dreamboat. It's the reason why these groups always have a couple of less attractive boys, so the girls feel more like they have a chance. Another type of wish fulfilment catered to.

I don't think this group should change or that one should be more like the other, but it would be nice if there was more diversity in the games offered, different story structures, wish unfulfilments, because that would grow the industry, instead of the major publishers all narrowing down.

Ip, B. (2011). Narrative structures in computer and video games: part 2: emotions, structures, and archetypes.Games and Culture, 6(3), 203-244.
 

SPCTRE

Member
My wife and niece both play Skyrim (among other console and handheld games), which I'm sure that girl in the story would erroneously assume is just a boy's game. Neither of them have ever mentioned feeling uncomfortable in a Gamestop to me.
The article likes to present anecdotal stuff, so here's some more anecdotal stuff.

The wife (aged 34) and I regularly visit the local Gamestop (located in a mall). I'd say the crowd there is predominantly male, but not by a large margin. Also, several of the employees there are female - it's definitely not a "for boys" kind of atmosphere.

As for game design appealing to "boys", the wife hates the LEGO games because they're "not real games" (for reference, she does like Borderlands, Diablo, Halo, all on harder/hardest difficulties).

On the other hand, she disliked the Tomb Raider reboot because they made it "a guy game" (stealth sections, combat heavy, lack of hard tomb puzzle segments).

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the article is actually on to something. It was an interesting perspective for sure.
 

Mepsi

Member
Just from observing my girlfriend playing games online, I would be fucking terrified if I was in her position.

Whenever she plays a game online, the moment people begin to realise she's female she gets a flood of friend requests, voice chat requests follwed by angry messages when she won't talk to them.

Even playing on the Wii U it happens. There's been a few occasions where she's done a few races on Mario Kart followed by a bombardment of friend requests (some of which when this first started happening she naively accepted) followed by people trying to call her on Wii U chat, followed by angry Miiverse messages calling her all sorts for not answering,

I don't think I could deal with stuff like that day to day, it's quite scary when all you want to do is sit down and relax but all you get is horny teenagers that get angry when they can't get their dicks wet.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention that her going into the local Game shop is quite an interesting experience. Always people stopping and staring and the staff trying to do the usual flirting and shit like that. She did used to have a cousin that worked there though who would call the staff out whenever they did stuff like this, but they got rid of him "for not being a team player".
 

Duster

Member
I'm pretty sure the under-trained and underpaid teenage shop staff are told to build a rapport with customers in order to sell things and that's likely to be a big cause of awkward flirting.
As a male customer I've certainly had awkward conversations with male GAME employees that I can only assume weren't trying to flirt with me. Actually the reason they were awkward was they stereotyped me as somebody interested in the latest FPS title they were trying to push. That's still slightly preferable to the idiots in Gamestation that used to look down on my GBA purchases.

Hooray for online shopping (except for GBA games due to all the pirate copies).
 

Pyrrhus

Member
Once again, the issues raised in the article are not about what girls do and don't like. The issue is that as girls grow up the only message they receive from mainstream game culture is (paraphrasing) "Tits or GTFO". They are literally being pushed out on account of their gender.

I don't think this is true. I don't think Nintendo's catalog, which is, yes, still mainstream, says that at all. I don't think the majority of the stuff Sony and Microsoft push says that either. In fact, they're putting their weight behind non-traditional stuff like Everybody's Gone to the Rapture and Beyond Eyes at the moment. Nor do I think modern Activision or EA or Ubisoft or Square Enix go out of their way to push women away from their products. Quite the opposite, actually. And I don't think the happy pastel Diner Dash and Candy Crush stuff pushes women away at all since it was actually made with them in mind as the primary audience. That's all mainstream.

As for awkward, angry gamers on message boards, I think they're effectively invisible to the uninitiated.

Which is exactly the point of the article, that women are finding something better to do with their time because of all the asshats who hassle them or tell them to suck it up, and that leaves gaming as a poorer, shittier community as a result.

The author states that her sister is entirely ignorant of the GG debacle from last year and other online harassment. I think that's the case with most of the wider society. That entire situation passed without their notice. I agree that sort of behavior is absolutely a problem and in many cases frankly criminal, but I don't think it's what's keeping girls from making contact with games to begin with.

As you say, I think they're just finding something better to do with their time. If they really wanted to game I think they would game. Those games the author says her sister wants, they're out there right now. When presented with a few of the best recent ones, the sister's weak excuse was, "well, yeah, but Kate Upton's breasts starred in a Game of War commercial that was run during a major sports event alongside other male-focused marketing like beer and car commercials."

Did she play any of those critically acclaimed female-centric indie games after their existence was made known to her? The author doesn't say, but I think we can take that as a no. These were single player games she could enjoy without having to pass some stranger's leetness litmus test or having to interact with the slavering hordes of 13-year-old dickweeds on voice chat. If you're not going to pass even that low barrier to entry, again, what can anyone else do?

I honestly think the real way forward toward inclusivity is for women who want to game to just game. If you get in there and just play games and be passionate about them, I think most people are going to regard you as a fellow traveler. There are going to be some maladjusted shits, but that's true of any community. If people would do that instead of fighting wars on twitter, I think the situation would be a lot rosier in 5 years time.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Once children reach their identity-forming years, each gender tries to conform to the normative ideals of what a man and what a woman should like.

Once children reach their identity-forming years, social pressures demand that they conform to arbitrary standards and deals out punishment for straying. Sure, the result looks superficially similar to what you asserted but the mechanism is far less pleasant and does a lot of incidental damage along the way.
 

Lime

Member
I honestly think the real way forward toward inclusivity is for women who want to game to just game. If you get in there and just play games and be passionate about them, I think most people are going to regard you as a fellow traveler. There are going to be some maladjusted shits, but that's true of any community. If people would do that instead of fighting wars on twitter, I think the situation would be a lot rosier in 5 years time.

Funny, that's exactly what women want to and have been trying to do the last 30 years. Yet they've been met with symbolic annihilation, cultural exclusion, online harassment and terrorism, interogation about their gamer credentials, benevolent sexism, and on and on.

You're literally proposing the exact thing that women already do and want to do, but they simply can't because how sexist the industry and gaming culture are.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to play online when you speak as a woman? Or how about going to gaming conventions and are being groped by people in a space filled with booth babes and dick-strocking marketing? Or talking about how much you enjoy playing games but are met with either "you're not a *real* gamer!" or "you probably just play casual mobile games" or "you're just a fake girl gamer who do it because it's popular"? Or being harassed or simply denied when you just say that you would like some more characters of the same gender as you in your video games? Or when you're watching the latest games journalism or industry conferences and almost everything is white dudes talking? Or when you have a whole online movement whose sole purpose is to terrorize any woman who rocks the boat? And, as a woman, you just want "to game", but you simply can't do it without encountering all this bullshit sexism across the culture.

I'm seriously baffled that you're basically proposing women to "just game". How can you say this when we've seen how incredibly fucking hostile video game culture and industry is to women? How can you expect women to "just game" when their very gender identity is politicized to such a degree that they can't even exist within so many of these spaces and conversations?
 
That's what irks me so much about how certain games even today are trying to hold up the old "games are for boys" ideal.

Hell, Assassin's Creed finally has a female co-lead (and lead in a mini-game), what, 7-8 games in?

The new FF (XV) = all male cast, with the only woman you interact with being a laughable "mechanic" in a thong and bikini.

Its shameful.
 
Is it common in American gmestops to have female staff? I feel like every time I was in an Australian eb there was usually at least one girl behind the counter.

I can only give perspective for my area (Massachusetts), but just about every GameStop I ever go to has at least one female staff member. Not necessarily every shift or anything, but one store I go to has a female GM and the others all have women on staff. Just like the men that work there, they all seem interested in gaming and chat about or make suggestions based on their favorite games.
 

itsc4z

Neo Member
I went into my local Gamestation last Friday to pick up Rare Replay and not one male employee was behind the counter, just 2 girls and 1 in the back.
 

AlucardGV

Banned
That's what irks me so much about how certain games even today are trying to hold up the old "games are for boys" ideal.

Hell, Assassin's Creed finally has a female co-lead (and lead in a mini-game), what, 7-8 games in?

The new FF (XV) = all male cast, with the only woman you interact with being a laughable "mechanic" in a thong and bikini.

Its shameful.

ff was always very diverse in their cast, it's fine if they do once. they did it with only female cast with ff10-2. nothing shameful about it.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
I have several women friends who've told me stories of being bullies out of playing video games by older brothers, often times for simply not playing the games the "right" way. Like, they weren't playing hyper competitively and weren't solely focused on winning.

And then yeah, obviously this entire industry is hugely male dominated and nearly all games are permeated with a heavy dose of male gaze. Games by guys, for what they think other guys want.
 

Lime

Member
Once children reach their identity-forming years, social pressures demand that they conform to arbitrary standards and deals out punishment for straying. Sure, the result looks superficially similar to what you asserted but the mechanism is far less pleasant and does a lot of incidental damage along the way.

Yes, that's what I meant to write, just in a more obtuse manner through my phone. :p Normative ideals = arbitrary standards + social pressure.
 
ff was always very diverse in their cast, it's fine if they do once. they did it with only female cast with ff10-2. nothing shameful about it.

10-2 wasn't a mainline FF, it was a spinoff/sequel. FF X-2 also didn't have some boytoy mechanic prancing around in a thong.
 

AlucardGV

Banned
10-2 wasn't a mainline FF, it was a spinoff/sequel.
does it matter?

FF X-2 also didn't have some boytoy mechanic prancing around in a thong.

ff15 male cast are bodyguard but none of them weap proper attire and they're all metrosexuals, they don't look at all like people running away because they're chased by an empire. how do you bodyguard almost shirtless?
 

PtM

Banned
Funny, that's exactly what women want to and have been trying to do the last 30 years. Yet they've been met with symbolic annihilation, cultural exclusion, online harassment and terrorism, interogation about their gamer credentials, benevolent sexism, and on and on.

You're literally proposing the exact thing that women already do and want to do, but they simply can't because how sexist the industry and gaming culture are.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to play online when you speak as a woman? Or how about going to gaming conventions and are being groped by people in a space filled with booth babes and dick-strocking marketing? Or talking about how much you enjoy playing games but are met with either "you're not a *real* gamer!" or "you probably just play casual mobile games" or "you're just a fake girl gamer who do it because it's popular"? Or being harassed or simply denied when you just say that you would like some more characters of the same gender as you in your video games? Or when you're watching the latest games journalism or industry conferences and almost everything is white dudes talking? Or when you have a whole online movement whose sole purpose is to terrorize any woman who rocks the boat? And, as a woman, you just want "to game", but you simply can't do it without encountering all this bullshit sexism across the culture.

I'm seriously baffled that you're basically proposing women to "just game". How can you say this when we've seen how incredibly fucking hostile video game culture and industry is to women? How can you expect women to "just game" when their very gender identity is politicized to such a degree that they can't even exist within so many of these spaces and conversations?

What Quadrophonic said. Offline gaming is a thing, even if in decline, single-player is here to stay.
It seems you are conflating playing games with playing games online. And that's two different things. Completely.
That's what irks me so much about how certain games even today are trying to hold up the old "games are for boys" ideal.

Hell, Assassin's Creed finally has a female co-lead (and lead in a mini-game), what, 7-8 games in?

The new FF (XV) = all male cast, with the only woman you interact with being a laughable "mechanic" in a thong and bikini.

Its shameful.
Ugh, not the Bro Fantasy again! I cannot take that argument seriously.
The mech is crap, though.
 

Lime

Member
What Quadrophonic said. Offline gaming is a thing, even if in decline, single-player is here to stay.

Wait, Quadrophonic was addressing me? He/she needs to use the Quote function or something then. However, all the stuff I listed wasn't exclusive to online games.

It's very, very difficult to engage mainstream video game culture, whether it is offline or online, and not encounter the sexism in these games. Playing games, whether offline or online, is a social activity - you talk with other people about them, you participate in conversations and communities related to them, you go to stores and buy them, you hear what other people recommends, you read reviews, etc. Throughout all of these things, i.e. being a human being, it is impossible not to encounter the sexist stuff.

Besides, even if I was only addressing online games (which I obviously wasn't), you, or whoever is advocating Pyrrhus' proposal, are basically saying "women should just stay playing offline games only" - which is a ridiculous point in itself.
 
Top Bottom