Support NeoGAF

[Ozriel]

A lot of these indie devs should probably go away

There’s too much content and shovelware out there these days

As long as a dev exists, there’s potential for them to make something really good.
I still remember how people had low expectations for Hogwarts Legacy because the devs last game was Cars 3.

Subscription services for games are a cancer. They need to go away fast. They will destroy quality on the long term.

Yeah, we’ve been hearing this shit since 2017 and none of that has materialized.

 

[Punished Miku]

And all the ones not released, too.

Over in the Hellblade DF thread, you can definitely see this.

- facial animations, 'up there with the absolutely best'
- Animation is 'unbelievably good'
- Lots of high quality post processing used. Nanite
- Compared to the first game, 'it's on a whole another level'
- DF thinks this will be one of the more/most demanding PC projects on release

 

[ManaByte]

Well Game Pass has been around for 7 years now.

Still waiting for it to destroy the industry...

 

[adamsapple]

 

[simpatico]

Indies on the dole? Gonna get ugly when that funding is pulled.

 

[Little Chicken]

Have you seen Microsoft's first party games?

Avowed, Fable, Indiana Jones, etc all look incredible!

 

[iHaunter]

Avowed, Fable, Indiana Jones, etc all look incredible!

None of which have been released yet. Starfield was supposed to be a game changer and was a hot pile of garbage. It's been 11 years since a Microsoft game was even nominated for GOTY.

 

[mckmas8808]

I can't tell what's serious these days,

Let's have less choice, in fact scrap this shit, Hifi Rush and also Pentiment. Bring me some third person AAA every 5 years.

There can never be too many games fuck me. Ignore the shite and play what you like. Just know there are people with differing tastes and that's OK!

Fucking fanboys on here jeez. That sawyer guy is next level

I have no craving to play any of the below, doesn't mean someone else won't enjoy them though!

But if those games could "ONLY" survive due to being on a subscription.......................then that's bad.

 

[adamsapple]

None of which have been released yet. Starfield was supposed to be a game changer and was a hot pile of garbage. It's been 11 years since a Microsoft game was even nominated for GOTY.

Wtf are you on about? Their games win plenty of GoTY awards.

Game of the Year - Award Tracker

Here you can see the awards for the best game of the year according to different media

goty.gamefa.com

 

[damidu]

Well Game Pass has been around for 7 years now.

Still waiting for it to destroy the industry...

still waiting for it to take off. at some point they'll have been missing too many targets in a row.
and we will see what happens to the half of the industry they gobbled up.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Avowed, Fable, Indiana Jones, etc all look incredible!

Ah yes. Blue Bald Beta Male quest, Man-Face, and Female Wmpowerment while we mock the main hero. Can’t wait to play them

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Risky lifeline. If your continued existence as a company is banked solely on Game Pass, you’re in pretty bad spot to be honest.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Any day now.

They've already put all their games on the table to go multiplat.

I can see why GP is great for indie devs, but it's coming at the expense of the Xbox brand itself. It'll be unsustainable in the long run.

 

[adamsapple]

They've already put all their games on the table to go multiplat.

I can see why GP is great for indie devs, but it's coming at the expense of the Xbox brand itself. It'll be unsustainable in the long run.

As long as it's going and indie developers are able to continue making new games because of it, seems like a win win for those developers and people who play their games.

 

[bender]

I always pegged you for a Nickelback fan.

 

[DrFigs]

As long as it's going and indie developers are able to continue making new games because of it, seems like a win win for those developers and people who play their games.

It seems like things were fine before when people bought games

 

[adamsapple]

I always pegged you for a Nickelback fan.

 

[Raven117]

Just dropping in to say how excellent this experience was.

 

[Superkewl]

Citizen Sleeper seemed like a really cool game. I would have never tried it, if it weren't for Gamepass. I need to go back and finish it one of these days.

 

[bender]

Plenty of other mediums take advantage of multiple distribution methods, including subscription models, to turn a profit so the backlash against indie development doing the same is weird.

 

[geary]

None of which have been released yet. Starfield was supposed to be a game changer and was a hot pile of garbage. It's been 11 years since a Microsoft game was even nominated for GOTY.

Yet, in the newzoo report we got this. Such a flop.

“This data showed that Starfield was the only single-player game to appear in the top ten games by average MAU in 2023 across PlayStation, Xbox, and PC. It was also the only ‘new franchise’ to occupy one of the top spots. Every other game featured in these top ten lists was a multiplayer or cooperative game – and astoundingly, the average age of these games is more than seven years.”

 

[geary]

adamsapple didn't you get the memo? Subscription services aren't doing too hot lately. So much shilling over something so tiny.

Isnt this the guy that was laughed off by Neogaf because he doesnt know what he talks as a analyst? Now he got his numbers correct?

 

[DrFigs]

Isnt this the guys that was laughed off by Neogaf because he doesnt know what he talks as a analyst? Now he got his numbers correct?

It's different when he's right!

 

[Killer8]

I take this to mean that Game Pass is like welfare for developers who would normally be unsuccessful and otherwise fade out of existence.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I take this to mean that Game Pass is like welfare for developers who would normally be unsuccessful and otherwise fade out of existence.

Just another thing wrong with the industry right now if smaller devs making great games need “welfare” just to exist.

 

[rofif]

Well Game Pass has been around for 7 years now.

Still waiting for it to destroy the industry...

It already did.
Oversaturated indie market
Destroyed xbox games and brand
Made people GP beggars. Especially on pc, people do not want to pay well deserved full price for a game on release.

The damage is done and it's clear. I don't know what else do you need to see.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

They help keep a lot of devs afloat.

Without good indies, we'll just be left waiting 4~5 years between expensive AAA projects only.

Come on now. Non triple AAA games wouldn't disappear without gamepass. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[adamsapple]

Isnt this the guy that was laughed off by Neogaf because he doesnt know what he talks as a analyst? Now he got his numbers correct?

Come on now. Non triple AAA games wouldn't disappear without gamepass. Don't be ridiculous.

I don't think I said or implied that at all. This developer is saying it helps keep many indie devs afloat, even if you remove all those indie devs there will still be some good AA developers like Dontnod etc.

Just another thing wrong with the industry right now if smaller devs making great games need “welfare” just to exist.

That is true, like I said in an earlier post, darling developers like Tim Schafer may be able to get kickstarter funding off of their history, but many small projects are never able to reach that level.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I'd argue steam is far more valuable to indie devs than gp could ever pray to be. So many small budget games have exploded because of steam.

 

[bender]

I'd argue steam is far more valuable to indie devs than gp could ever pray to be. So many small budget games have exploded because of steam.

The challenge with Steam is discovery which saw roughly 40 titles released daily last year.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'd argue steam is far more valuable to indie devs than gp could ever pray to be. So many small budget games have exploded because of steam.

It does help bring visibility, especially with the recommendation algorithms based on wishlists and reviews and the tag system. I'm honestly shocked other storefronts don't implement similar systems.

 

[Punished Miku]

Destroyed xbox games and brand

Honestly, they have been on the ropes since Xbone. Gamepass is the main thing that kept them going until now. They had a couple years of very light 1st party releases and Gamepass carried them for sure while they got their 1st party operation running in some kind of regular cadence. GP is what made me get the system after skipping it last gen.

 

[PSlayer]

How do you feel about stuff like Rise of the Ronin, FFXVI, FFVII, and Stella Blade getting socialistic funding from Sony? Should they not try and survive purely on the strength of their own bootstraps? In some cases they even get free labor from XDEV which is basically communism.

There is a difference between funding a project and subsidizing the entire thing regardless of returns. With funding,the project is still expected to bring money to the table. With subzidizing,the thing exists and doesn't have to worry about actually attracting a sustainable userbase because the whole thing was paid off upfront by somebody else.

When money stops flowing, the latter dies instantly because they don't know how to make a product that sells. That is why gamepass is "keeping indies alive" as the title of this thread says.

I'm not against funding in the style that Sony does, but i don't think the gamepass model is sustainable and it will ruin thousands of lives as soon as MS flips the switch.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The challenge with Steam is discovery which saw roughly 40 titles released daily last year.

Of all alternatives, steam still has the best discovery system. Better than that, just running your own marketing campaign or funding one.

 

[Punished Miku]

There is a difference between funding a project and subsidizing the entire thing regardless of returns. With funding,the project is still expected to bring money to the table. With subzidizing,the thing exists and doesn't have to worry about actually attracting a sustainable userbase because the whole thing was paid off upfront by somebody else.

When money stops flowing, the latter dies instantly because they don't know how to make a product that sells. That is why gamepass is "keeping indies alive" as the title of this thread says.

I'm not against funding in the style that Sony does, but i don't think the gamepass model is sustainable and it will ruin thousands of lives as soon as MS flips the switch.

Some GP deals are based on amount of downloads, or time spent playing. They're supposedly quite variable, so some of it isn't upfront.

And any indie devs whose "lives are ruined" are going to be the result of all consumer activity across all distribution methods. Nothing is GP exclusive. People can buy the games anytime too. If some smaller devs had to turn to subs for extra security, it just means the retail buy to play model failed them first.

 

[adamsapple]

There is a difference between funding a project and subsidizing the entire thing regardless of returns. With funding,the project is still expected to bring money to the table. With subzidizing,the thing exists and doesn't have to worry about actually attracting a sustainable userbase because the whole thing was paid off upfront by somebody else.

When money stops flowing, the latter dies instantly because they don't know how to make a product that sells. That is why gamepass is "keeping indies alive" as the title of this thread says.

I'm not against funding in the style that Sony does, but i don't think the gamepass model is sustainable and it will ruin thousands of lives as soon as MS flips the switch.

GP deals are not just flat funding of all games, different deals are made with different developers. Some get full or partial funding, some get residuals depending on activity / downloads and some get a flat rate for inclusion on game pass. All the content is on sale and the exposure that the game gets from, say, GP also translates to sales for players on different platforms or those who don't have GP.

 

[bender]

Of all alternatives, steam still has the best discovery system. Better than that, just running your own marketing campaign or funding one.

Being the best doesn't automatically make you good. I'm not bagging on Steam either as the ease of development and publishing on all platforms had led to stores getting flooded with game releases. Combine that with Steam's popularity and how quickly competition can turn around knockoffs of other game ideas, I'd hate to be in the indie space. And to circle back to the subject at hand, that's a plus for subscription services and even *gasp* exclusivity deals that EGS hands out. If I can cover development costs of my game idea by using these vehicles in exchange for limited exclusivity, that's an easy choice as I can put my game on other platforms at a later date. Further, the services that are doing those deals are doing some form of curation.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Being the best doesn't automatically make you good. I'm not bagging on Steam either as the ease of development and publishing on all platforms had led to stores getting flooded with game releases. Combine that with Steam's popularity and how quickly competition can turn around knockoffs of other game ideas, I'd hate to be in the indie space. And to circle back to the subject at hand, that's a plus for subscription services and even *gasp* exclusivity deals that EGS hands out. If I can cover development costs of my game idea by using these vehicles in exchange for limited exclusivity, that's an easy choice as I can put my game on other platforms at a later date. Further, the services that are doing those deals are doing some form of curation.

Problem is getting those deals in the first place. Do you think Epic of MS would've been willing to give funds to Vomitoreum or I am Sakuya? And who would've known, they actually turned out to be quite successful endeavors for what they're worth.

 

[bender]

Problem is getting those deals in the first place. Do you think Epic of MS would've be willing to give funds to Vomitoreum or I am Sakuya? And who would've known, they actually turned out to be quite successful endeavors for what they're worth.

Well, sure. Curation has its' own set of problems just as lack of any type of curation does. Great games or ideas will fall through the cracks of either system. The bigger problem is thinking that one shoe fits all. That said, I do think we've swung too far in the direction away from curation. Scrolling through new release or coming soon sections of just about any store front is a chore due to the sea of shovelware. But maybe Playstation fans really are yearning for multiple Supermarket Shopping Simulators. Now if you excuse me, I have a Potato Sack Racing Sumulator 2024 demo to try. Can't wait to see the improvements over PSRS2023.

 

[Esppiral]

None of which have been released yet. Starfield was supposed to be a game changer and was a hot pile of garbage. It's been 11 years since a Microsoft game was even nominated for GOTY.

I've seen many garbage games nominated to goty, just because flies like shit doesn't mean It tastes good.

 

[Wildebeest]

Ask Mixer streamers how it feels to rely on Microsoft to continue a policy of generous handouts to content creators.

 

[Shake Your Rump]

At the end, as consumers, we get the benefit of more options. How would that be a problem?

 

[iHaunter]

Wtf are you on about? Their games win plenty of GoTY awards.

Game of the Year - Award Tracker

Here you can see the awards for the best game of the year according to different media

goty.gamefa.com

Did you reply to the right person? Not sure if that's sarcasm...

 

[Guilty_AI]

Scrolling through new release or coming soon sections of just about any store front is a chore due to the sea of shovelware.

Yeahhh.... no mate. Wording like this just shows you really have no familiarity with the platform at all

Here, not first time i clear up this type of misconception

On steam we call them "tags" and "user reviews"

"What's this? I want horror games with immersive sims elements released in the last three years? No 2D stuff either? Easy peasy:"

"Oh but some of these are certainly trash! I should check:"

"Huh, mixed. Maybe this one isn't so good after all. Reviews say it's too early in early access and game is barely 15 minutes. Lets check another one:"

"Hey, great reviews. Could this be the one? Let's see a few gameplay videos on youtube...."

"Oh! Its just what i wanted!"

But i don't blame you for thinking that way. Your main experience with digital stores probably comes from crappy ones like PS Store or eShop so you must've thought they all were like that.

 

[bender]

Yeahhh.... no mate. Wording like this just shows you really have no familiarity with the platform at all

Yeah... no mate. I've been on Steam since 2004 and have over 1,300 titles in my library.

 

[StueyDuck]

In other words, phil... fund our next game please.



didn't we recently have some dev say the exact opposite?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yeah... no mate. I've been on Steam since 2004 and have over 1,300 titles in my library.

And you didn't know you could search by tags and release date and had to "Scroll through new release or coming soon sections" to find stuff? Glad i could help you then!

 

[bender]

And you didn't know you could search by tags and release date and had to "Scroll through new release or coming soon sections" to find stuff? Glad i could help you then!

Stupid assumptions.

 

[Wildebeest]

Steam recommendations are terrible. Maybe if you have very standard tastes, you probably don't notice that it basically mostly just recommends games that are currently popular. It is basically just relying on games being promoted on other platforms and amplifying that effect.

 

[A.Romero]

Thanks for sharing, interesting. I watched it but not sure what your point is.

If I understand correctly he talks about 2 cons regarding having too many choices:

1) Choice paralysis
2) Less satisfaction from the choices we make

You are saying that it would all be better if we only had, for example, Nintendo games and consoles? Where do you think the line should be drawn for a healty amount of choices?

In the particular case of Gamepass, how do you think it applies? Would we enjoy gaming more if we only had a very limited amount of games to play? That was my situation as a kid, I only had like 2 NES games and like 3 SNES games. Now that I'm an adult and have access to many games I get to try many different things. Some of them are crap but also some of them are really good. How do we guarantee that the limited choice is composed of only good games and not bad games?