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Coal Mining Jobs Trump Would Bring Back No Longer Exist for Humans

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Ogodei

Member
It was somewhat surprising to me just how few coal mining jobs exist. Learning that there were fewer than 50,000 left in the nation really got me puzzled why it was made such a hot topic in the election. It's clear an industry that is one it's way out and has been for a long time, but I guess people not wanting to deal with reality has been a theme of Trump's success.

Some groups of people have an outsize influence on politics, and also in the cultural mindset. Coal miners are those people for Appalachia, as even at the peak of coal employment it wasn't *that* huge (only 250k nationwide, as an article upthread said).

It just got mythologized as the ideal job of the postwar boom, similar to the mythic heavy industry jobs, a place where a man could go after high school (or maybe after the Army) and make a living to support a wife and three kids and a nice house in the country.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
It was somewhat surprising to me just how few coal mining jobs exist. Learning that there were fewer than 50,000 left in the nation really got me puzzled why it was made such a hot topic in the election. It's clear an industry that is one it's way out and has been for a long time, but I guess people not wanting to deal with reality has been a theme of Trump's success.

There are something like 650,000 renewable energy jobs from what I've been reading. Coal isn't just dead, its not even worth it considering the scales easily tip in the favor of renewable energy in nearly every category.
 

jstripes

Banned
It was somewhat surprising to me just how few coal mining jobs exist. Learning that there were fewer than 50,000 left in the nation really got me puzzled why it was made such a hot topic in the election. It's clear an industry that is one it's way out and has been for a long time, but I guess people not wanting to deal with reality has been a theme of Trump's success.

Manly men doing manly things.

Oh, and "fuck environmentalism".
 

Balphon

Member
Some groups of people have an outsize influence on politics, and also in the cultural mindset. Coal miners are those people for Appalachia, as even at the peak of coal employment it wasn't *that* huge (only 250k nationwide, as an article upthread said).

It just got mythologized as the ideal job of the postwar boom, similar to the mythic heavy industry jobs, a place where a man could go after high school (or maybe after the Army) and make a living to support a wife and three kids and a nice house in the country.

The situation gets worse when you consider what the current largest coal production region in the US actually is.

jxKmyzIl.png
 

Foffy

Banned
This is terrible. What are people in those regions going to do now?

(Not being sarcastic btw, I really mean this.)

Right now?

If our culture is anything to go by, imagine this sentence being said to them: "go fuck yourselves."

We have nothing for them..
 

akira28

Member
This is terrible. What are people in those regions going to do now?

(Not being sarcastic btw, I really mean this.)

I have a very modest proposal for these regions.

Its organic, it's economical, its self reliance. its an age old tradition. I mean AGES old. its eating your own babies.
 
This is the part where the baby finds out what "hot" means, unfortunately.

I feel bad for the children and those who tried to prevent the idiocy. Welcome to accelerationism, other people :/
 
I can't believe that the rest of the world has to suffer so that the workers in this dead industry can feel protected for just a bit longer.

Blame the Dems, they should do a better job with messaging and finding solutions to those people. Saying your jobs are fucked ain't gonna cut it. I mean Hillary literally said we're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business. Yeah they should've loved her. Dems have no one to blame for losing white working class voters but themselves.
 

kirblar

Member
Blame the Dems, they should do a better job with messaging and finding solutions to those people. Saying your jobs are fucked ain't gonna cut it.
Because you'd be so happy with a party full of Joe Manchins.

Why are poeple like you so unable to admit and accept that the voters might be the problem here.
 

Foffy

Banned

What upsets me with these remarks are quite a few things.

- This needed to get traction. If you look at the time when that video was posted, what event happened in America that suffocated this conversation? The Pulse shooting.
- The only time Obama talked to the American public -- the rural Americans, primarily -- on this issue again was in his last speech as President. Any other time he spoke of this, he was "preaching to the choir" at Vox or Wired aware of this issue. This includes potential support for UBI. This conversation resided too long in "intellectual arenas" that admit the issues and reality; what we needed was awareness to those who don't see this.

The fact someone in bumfuck nowhere can still say trade is the leading jobs killer in 2017 shows we have a fucking mess on our hands. Alternative facts will now create opposing realities, and this can prove toxic for most battles in society are of minds and ideas; we might cement myth and lies, as we can see with Trump.
 
Because you'd be so happy with a party full of Joe Manchins.

Why are poeple like you so unable to admit and accept that the voters might be the problem here.

Because it's not true? Hillary literally told them we are going to make your job disappear, and it's the voter's fault for not wanting her? This group has been largely Dem for 80 years, we are just dropping the ball for them hard right now.

You need to stop worrying about what you can't do and focus on what you can do to unify them under the Democratic party banner. The party used to be THE party of the white (and other races) working class voter. And not even that long ago. You can't just stick up your middle finger at them as they walk out the door because you don't know how to talk to them anymore.
 
Blame the Dems, they should do a better job with messaging and finding solutions to those people. Saying your jobs are fucked ain't gonna cut it. I mean Hillary literally said we're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business. Yeah they should've loved her. Dems have no one to blame for losing white working class voters but themselves.

How about some responsibility from these people? They had decades to see the writing on the wall. They saw and chose to ignore it, it didn't sneak up on them.
 

kirblar

Member
Because it's not true? Hillary literally told them we are going to make your job disappear, and it's the voter's fault for not wanting her? This group has been largely Dem for 80 years, we are just dropping the ball for them hard right now.

You need to stop worrying about what you can't do and focus on what you can do to unify them under the Democratic party banner.
This state has not been Dem for a generation+. The "WWC" (aka Rural Whites) sold us out to Reagan and hasn't been on our side since.

The Southern Strategy that was employed post-LBJ has gone national. The reason you could get shit done prior to this under R presidents is because there were enough conservative Dems around to force compromise. Now those who used to be Dixiecrats are just straight up Rs.

Stop looking to the past and start looking to the future. It's not that we shouldnt compete in WV, but you're really not going to like what you have to do in order to compete there at a state level.

How about some responsibility from these people? They had decades to see the writing on the wall. They saw and chose to ignore it, it didn't sneak up on them.
Lots did see it. The Rust belt and Appalachia have been bleeding population for generations.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Because it's not true? Hillary literally told them we are going to make your job disappear
speaking of things that aren't true...
and it's the voter's fault for not wanting her? This group has been largely Dem for 80 years, we are just dropping the ball for them hard right now.

You need to stop worrying about what you can't do and focus on what you can do to unify them under the Democratic party banner.
That's....what she did? Not in the most elegant way like how Obama did but that's...what she did.

It almost seems like you wanted her to lie to them. "Yes, I will bring back even more coal jobs than ever before" or some shit. That's the domain of the other party.

This thread is about how those lies mean jack fucking shit and those people are still not going to be getting their jobs back.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
While bringing jobs back might mean automated jobs, it still means more human jobs anyway, not everything is automated, especially not in construction and transportation. Coal still sucks and it shouldn't be helped but I saw this argument applied to other jobs and it's misleading.
 

Foffy

Banned
Because it's not true? Hillary literally told them we are going to make your job disappear, and it's the voter's fault for not wanting her? This group has been largely Dem for 80 years, we are just dropping the ball for them hard right now.

You need to stop worrying about what you can't do and focus on what you can do to unify them under the Democratic party banner.

Obama told Democrats to "smarten up" on automation, likely as a pointer as a solution and a start to the precariat in rural America. I do get what your point is: we can say on a macro scale to kill these jobs, but on a micro scale this is a claim of violence, because of the jobs cult mentality we have. That's the entire issue, here.

That said, Hillary did have plans, albeit ones that came out in leaks. Did you know she may have been the only candidate running in 2016 to actually consider using government money to trial a basic income project? I'm not kidding.

Hillary Clinton, the woman seen as the starter of World War III with Russia, would be using TANF money to try pilot projects with government money. Holy shit.

Of course, this truth only highlights the problems of her public/private duality with policy. Unless you read the leaked Podesta emails, her only remarks on basic income come from Vox, where she was against it, which likely was a play to get the toxic nationalists on board with her in the same way she dejected remarks about looking at other countries for health care ideas, something she herself did in the past.
 
This state has not been Dem for a generation+.

The Southern Strategy that was employed post-LBJ has gone national. The reason you could get shit done prior to this under R presidents is because there were enough conservative Dems around to force compromise. Now those who used to be Dixiecrats are just straight up Rs.

Stop looking to the past and start looking to the future. It's not that we shouldnt compete in WV, but you're really not going to like what you have to do in order to compete there at a state level.

Lots did see it. The Rust belt and Appalachia have been bleeding population for generations.


I edited to be more clear....

The party used to be THE party of the white (and other races) working class voter. And not even that long ago. You can't just stick up your middle finger at them as they walk out the door because you don't know how to talk to them anymore.

By these people I mean the white working class voter, not West Virginians necessarily specifically but there is one thing you can talk to even them with. And that's jobs, wages, quality of life, work benefits etc. Dems used to be the party of that. Now we're almost as corporate as the R's.
 

kirblar

Member
I edited to be more clear....

The party used to be THE party of the white (and other races) working class voter. And not even that long ago. You can't just stick up your middle finger at them as they walk out the door because you don't know how to talk to them anymore.

By these people I mean the white working class voter, not West Virginians necessarily specifically but there is one thing you can talk to even them with. And that's jobs, wages, quality of life, work benefits etc. Dems used to be the party of that. Now we're almost as corporate as the R's.
What you and others don't understand is that the Dems didn't abandon them, they abandoned the Dems. And the reason was simple: LBJ and Civil Rights.

This was not about the Dems being "more corporate" or embracing good economics and ditching socialism. This was about racist rural whites voting in a unified pattern across the entire USA.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
While bringing jobs back might mean automated jobs, it still means more human jobs anyway, not everything is automated, especially not in construction and transportation. Coal still sucks and it shouldn't be helped but I saw this argument applied to other jobs and it's misleading.

Yeah you get some jobs back but those jobs are not going to be ones a random 20 or 30 year coal miner is picking up in a month or two and there won't be enough for all the people who lose their jobs to automation. Companies aren't automating their work force just so they can hire them all back.
 
What you and others don't understand is that the Dems didn't abandon them, they abandoned the Dems. And the reason was simple: LBJ and Civil Rights.

Ridiculous. If you were a racist you did, but plenty are not. Even after that there were plenty of white working class dems. It was THE party of the unions. Still is but now people don't give a shit because they aren't really doing anything for the union worker. Why aren't we still banging the drum of higher min wages, better benefits (guess how many industrialized nations have no national allowance for maternity leave), and yes training and programs to help people shift to equal jobs.

I guess it's just easier to not have to look at yourself and just go lalala they are racist fucktards with fingers in your ears. While they are literally screaming at you about what's important to them and all you can say it "meh, your job's fucked."
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Ridiculous. If you were a racist you did, but plenty are not. Even after that there were plenty of white working class dems. It was THE party of the unions. Still is but now people don't give a shit because they aren't really doing anything about it. Why aren't we still banging the drum of higher min wages, better benefits (guess how many industrialized nations have no national allowance for maternity leave), and yes training and programs to help people shift to equal jobs.

I guess it's just easier to not have to look at yourself and just go lalala they are racist fucktards with fingers in your ears. While they are literally screaming at you about what's important to them and all you can say it "meh, your job's fucked."

Where have you been? Dems are the ones banging that drum and hard. The only union the GOP supports is the police union, they abhor the idea of raising the minimum wage and they want to destroy Planned Parenthood, you think they care about Maternity leave?
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Ridiculous. If you were a racist you did, but plenty are not. Even after that there were plenty of white working class dems. It was THE party of the unions. Still is but now people don't give a shit because they aren't really doing anything for the union worker. Why aren't we still banging the drum of higher min wages, better benefits (guess how many industrialized nations have no national allowance for maternity leave), and yes training and programs to help people shift to equal jobs.

I guess it's just easier to not have to look at yourself and just go lalala they are racist fucktards with fingers in your ears. While they are literally screaming at you about what's important to them and all you can say it "meh, your job's fucked."
Which Democratic candidate did NOT campaign for those?
 
Ridiculous. If you were a racist you did, but plenty are not. Even after that there were plenty of white working class dems. It was THE party of the unions. Still is but now people don't give a shit because they aren't really doing anything for the union worker. Why aren't we still banging the drum of higher min wages, better benefits (guess how many industrialized nations have no national allowance for maternity leave), and yes training and programs to help people shift to equal jobs.

I guess it's just easier to not have to look at yourself and just go lalala they are racist fucktards with fingers in your ears. While they are literally screaming at you about what's important to them and all you can say it "meh, your job's fucked."

The Dems were clamoring for a higher minimum wage, better health care (did you just ignore the entire 8+ years of fighting?), and free education/training. Hillary literally was advocating for a free college up to an associates. You think a 20 something or straight out of high school would want that? especially with STEM programs available and jobs needed.

But oh I can't be bothered to do that..or the rhetoric from the right shouting and screaming even though they started the fight/argument.
 
Where have you been? Dems are the ones banging that drum and hard. The only union the GOP supports is the police union, they abhor the idea of raising the minimum wage and they want to destroy Planned Parenthood, you think they care about Maternity leave?

I know that's what the Dems believe in and republican's don't. But what I'm saying is they are shit at messaging. And they are shit at banging the drums for it. When is the last time you saw dems fight for something as hard as republicans repealing obamacare? Even though that didn't happen it's their message. And people for 7 years have heard them say it. That bonds people to them.
 

kirblar

Member
Ridiculous. If you were a racist you did, but plenty are not. Even after that there were plenty of white working class dems. It was THE party of the unions. Still is but now people don't give a shit because they aren't really doing anything about it. Why aren't we still banging the drum of higher min wages, better benefits (guess how many industrialized nations have no national allowance for maternity leave), and yes training and programs to help people shift to equal jobs.
We aren't banging the Drum because we have a heterogenous population with incredibly low population density. You get far better welfare states in cold countries with homogenous population because they are both more urbanized, and racism is less pronounced in urban areas where people have to grow up interacting w/ people who don't look like them. Unfortunately, racism IS a huge factor in the US, one that leads to patterns like this showing up over and over. Yes, many are not racist, but a whole, whole, whole lot of them are.


The issue is that you and others keep greatly, greatly underestimating just how big a factor race is in the politics of this country. It's bad. It's really bad. And with the influx of immigration/refugees in Europe now, you're seeing it get really bad there too.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I know that's what the Dems believe in and republican's don't. But what I'm saying is they are shit at messaging. And they are shit at banging the drums for it. When is the last time you saw dems fight for something as hard as republicans repealing obamacare? Even though that didn't happen it's their message. And people for 7 years have heard them say it. That bonds people to them.

Except they failed at repealing Obamacare and spectacularly so. They were "fighting" when they knew they didn't have to actual show up and throw down. You mean they're making a lot of noise that is easily eaten up by their base for no good reason then they talk a big game.
 

kirblar

Member
I know that's what the Dems believe in and republican's don't. But what I'm saying is they are shit at messaging. And they are shit at banging the drums for it. When is the last time you saw dems fight for something as hard as republicans repealing obamacare? Even though that didn't happen it's their message. And people for 7 years have heard them say it. That bonds people to them.
Dems fought like hell to get Obamacare passed in the first place.
 
Except they failed at repealing Obamacare and spectacularly so. They were "fighting" when they knew they didn't have to actual show up and throw down.

EXACTLY.

And yeah passing Obamacare might have been the last time they seemed to really give a shit towards an issue, but that was for like 2 years. And really still doesn't compare to how hard republican's messaged against it since then. Hell look how hard Trump messages to these working class voters. He's constantly beating that drum of an economic message for them. And the liberal retort is just your job is fucked anyway. It's sad. That's not a message anyone can get behind.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?

Then I have no clue what point you're trying to make as I don't really agree with the ones you've been pushing so far.

Edit: Saw your edit and you still don't seem to have a clue what point you're trying to make and it just seems like you're moving goal posts now.
 
I'm from Appalachia.

Coal has become like a religion here and everywhere you see people with "friends of coal" stickers on trucks. Everyone is absolutely convinced that there is nothing wrong at all with coal mining (even though simultaneously acknowledging that the jobs themselves are absolutely awful) and that bringing back coal mining is the solution to everything.

They will always vote for anyone who pretends like they can do something about coal mining in the region being obsolete and in general not worth doing.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Don't take the fact that you weren't comprehending what I was originally saying as me moving the goalposts.

Maybe you should be a bit clearer about what you're saying as I think you're just moving goalposts now that you got called out for making a weak ass statement earlier.
 

kirblar

Member
EXACTLY.

And yeah passing Obamacare might have been the last time they seemed to really give a shit towards an issue, but that was for like 2 years. And really still doesn't compare to how hard republican's messaged against it since then. Hell look how hard Trump messages to these working class voters. He's constantly beating that drum of an economic message for them. And the liberal retort is just your job is fucked anyway. It's sad. That's not a message anyone can get behind.
You need to take the poster below seriously. We can't help people who want a unicorn.
I'm from Appalachia.

Coal has become like a religion here and everywhere you see people with "friends of coal" stickers on trucks. Everyone is absolutely convinced that there is nothing wrong at all with coal mining (even though simultaneously acknowledging that the jobs themselves are absolutely awful) and that bringing back coal mining is the solution to everything.

They will always vote for anyone who pretends like they can do something about coal mining in the region being obsolete and in general not worth doing.
 
Maybe you should be a bit clearer about what you're saying as I think you're just moving goalposts now that you got called out for making a weak ass statement earlier.

I'm saying the exact same thing! My very first post was that the Dems are very weak at messaging to the white working class voter. Then many posts of an explanation of that and how we as a party lost them (many who aren't racist).

You need to take the poster below seriously. We can't help people who want a unicorn.

If you consider it a unicorn to constantly beat the drum of worker's rights, wages and benefits we are truly lost.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I'm saying the exact same thing! My very first post was that the Dems are very weak at messaging to the white working class voter. Then many posts of an explanation of that and how we as a party lost them (the ones who aren't racist).

They have been painted by the GOP and the conservative media as what's wrong with this country in every way for years on the heels of huge pushes like the Southern Strategy by the GOP. Lets be honest here, its not that their messaging is bad, its that the base of the GOP doesn't like the message they're hearing from the Democrats because it contains things like being compassionate to plight of the native community or the black or homeless or any other disparaged group that they don't have a blood relative in.
 

HowZatOZ

Banned
My brother is actually working on exactly this here in Australia for Caterpillar, and it's only getting more prolific. Why risk the lives of humans in a dangerous job when you can get robots to do it? The only problem is that with the removal of human workers they need other jobs to go to, and that's not being provided or thought of.
 

kirblar

Member
If you consider it a unicorn to constantly beat the drum of worker's rights, wages and benefits we are truly lost.
Beating that drum won't win you elections because it's not what those people want.

They view Gov't benefits and protections as handouts to the "other", which is why you see less-generous welfare states in more diverse states and nations.

This is why you had people like Angus King running as "Independents"- when he left the party he said "The Democratic Party as an institution has become too much the party that is looking for something from government," You don't need to be a dog to understand that dog-whistle.
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
Because it's not true? Hillary literally told them we are going to make your job disappear, and it's the voter's fault for not wanting her? This group has been largely Dem for 80 years, we are just dropping the ball for them hard right now.

You need to stop worrying about what you can't do and focus on what you can do to unify them under the Democratic party banner. The party used to be THE party of the white (and other races) working class voter. And not even that long ago. You can't just stick up your middle finger at them as they walk out the door because you don't know how to talk to them anymore.

It wasn't malicious, but it was a pretty dumb phrasing considering how ads are made with out of context quotes. She was talking about coal companies being a dying industry and helping solve their jobs problem with a focus on renewables.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...xt-hillary-clintons-comments-about-coal-jobs/
 
If you consider it a unicorn to constantly beat the drum of worker's rights, wages and benefits we are truly lost.

Let's be honest Hillary was telling the truth. Would you rather Dems lied to coal country? Because even they know and they don't even want it. It's some sort of cultural delusion down there. Would it even be a point to cater to people that are incredibly stupid that no matter what you do they will vote for the other side any way because reasons.

I'm all for being for the working man, but I rather not waste energy courting these folks when their single issues are on it's last leg of life whether Trump or Hillary is in office.
 
So America wants to destroy the Environment for 100,000 jobs?

100,000 jobs with 150,000,000 people to fill them. OMG the economic anxiety is real
 
Beating that drum won't win you elections because it's not what those people want.

They view Gov't benefits and protections as handouts to the "other", which is why you see less-generous welfare states in more diverse states and nations.

This is why you had people like Angus King running as "Independents"- when he left the party he said "The Democratic Party as an institution has become too much the party that is looking for something from government," You don't need to be a dog to understand that dog-whistle.

These same people used to be Dems because of those very things you said. Many of them are those people in need. Republican messaging has stolen them over the last 30 years. We need to steal them back. And you don't even want to try, but instead actively undermine your beliefs by giving them the middle finger because of your assumption that they are all just unredeemable racist assholes.
 
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