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[dschalter]

maybe should probably be a separate thread for the partisan moral superiorityfest going on here? i dunno, just feels unpleasant here.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Fuck. Me too. I'm outta here. I gotta go check on my niece.

:-(

sigh.

 

[Devolution]

I think it's incredibly funny to hear you pointing fingers about right-wingers engaging in "fear mongering, factual distortion, and 'truthiness'" in this thread...since this thread was filled with tons of "fear mongering" and such from the left regarding the eeeeeviiiiil Tea Partiers and their deranged gunmen, taking inspiration for mass murder from Sarah Palin

And we've got people like yourself feigning willful fucking ignorance when it comes to people on the right espousing nothing but eliminationist rhetoric for years. Until you change the discourse of the talking heads and hateful people on the right, there will be those that take their message literally. And yet people have the gall to post false equivalency bullshit about how both sides are just as bad. They're fucking not.

 

[RagnarokX]

Yeah, I mean its no short of goddamn miracle. Shot in the head, bullet went through and through, and last I read, she's responsive and talking to people. My little brain has trouble even processing it. Hope she recovers completely and fully.

You'd be amazed at the amount of brain a person can get by without. Check out this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahad_Israfil

Kid lost half his brain and, although confined to a wheelchair, leads a mostly normal life and attained a university degree. As long as the bullet passed quickly through and damage wasn't done to certain parts of the brain like the prefrontal cortex, motor cortex, Broca's and Wernicke's areas, and central parts of the brain and brain stem she should make a pretty good recovery. Here's hoping she does.

 

[numble]

Has there been a proper summary of the events that transpired yet?

Was she shot first? Were the other people shot in the head as well?

 

[entremet]

Has there been a proper summary of the events that transpired yet?

Was she shot first? Were the other people shot in the head as well?

Don't think so. Still very early and the FBI is probably still putting together eyewitness accounts.

The last I read was that the suspect shot her and several others outside a grocery store. The suspect then fled and was tackled by two others.

 

[Ether_Snake]

If she lives I wonder what those people at Rapture Ready will say.

 

[Zaptruder]

Fuck. Me too. I'm outta here. I gotta go check on my niece.

Thank god. The shirllness of equivocation has left the room.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

If she lives I wonder what those people at Rapture Ready will say.

Well now, that's certainly an obscure detail to remember out of Revelations/Apocalypse.

What's the latest? How many dead/wounded?

 

[TacticalFox88]

This guy is going to commit suicide. I just have a feeling. Somehow he will.

 

[Allard]

numble
Has there been a proper summary of the events that transpired yet?

Was she shot first? Were the other people shot in the head as well?

I think that is still being held back (full details). Basically its assumed that the congresswoman was shot first, the gunman kept shooting those around him (ended up killing a Federal Judge who just happened to be there upon coincidence, wasn't scheduled to be there), 15 injured, 6 killed; two people eventually tackled assailant to the ground. Cops and Medical personnel showed up fairly quickly and now we are left as we are. Originally the congresswoman was declared dead though but was later changed when people found out she was heading to the hospital. The whole reporting on the entire incident is pretty patchy to be honest despite the fact it was a public venue. Stuff not known is a possible accomplice/ 2nd suspect. The details on this second person is completely unknown including the reason they are pursuing him. Supposedly close to his 50's. Little more is known about the incident as it stands to the public. The rest is just stuff people have dug up on the gunman's past and people pandering political stuff because of the location and the fact she is congresswoman. Don't read the rest of this thread it will just give you a headache.

Basically we probably need to wait a bit longer till we get full details.

 

[Antiochus]

I see that Mr.Drusus has evidently been reincarnated as a woman. No matter, his ideals and spirit are as intact as ever.

 

[Ember128]

If she lives I wonder what those people at Rapture Ready will say.

Half are praying for the families, half are blaming it on him being a communist atheist liberal who didn't believe in God.

 

[entremet]

This guy is going to commit suicide. I just have a feeling. Somehow he will.

If he's mentally instable he's probably in a straight jacket and with 24 hour surveillance. The FBI is handling the case, so he probably is.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Uh, that guy is a Democrat political hack, and many in Arizona will tell you he's positioning himself in the Democrat party for a nomination to run for Governor against Jan Brewer next term, or trying to get another State office appointment from a Democrat.

This is the same Sheriff who was involved heavily in the imigration debate and put himself on the national stage, remember?



http://abcnews.go.com/WN/protestors...ycott-state/story?id=10487582&tqkw=&tqshow=WN

How dare he not comply with a disgusting fucking law!

 

[Particle Physicist]

You think a sheriff should just ignore state laws they disagree with? I think the arizona law is bad in principle, and I think Prop 19 if passed would have done a LOT of good in California, but just as I criticized Lee Baca for vowing to ignore prop 19 if passed this sheriff is no better. I don't want law enforcement picking and choosing what laws they enforce. Either enforce the law on the books or quit your damn job.

If it's an incredibly racist law.. yes.. i do believe that it's okay for a sheriff to ignore that law.

 

[PhoenixDark]

NY Times profile
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp

Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”

Another former high school classmate said that Mr. Loughner may have met Representative Giffords, who was shot in the head outside the Safeway supermarket, several years ago.

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

Paul Schwalbach, the spokesman for the Pima Community College, said one video that Mr. Loughner had prepared was considered particularly troubling by campus administrators, motivating them to suspend Mr. Loughner in September.

 

[ivysaur12]

NY Times profile
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp

That piece is so troubling to read.

 

[beat]

And we've got people like yourself feigning willful fucking ignorance when it comes to people on the right espousing nothing but eliminationist rhetoric for years. Until you change the discourse of the talking heads and hateful people on the right, there will be those that take their message literally. And yet people have the gall to post false equivalency bullshit about how both sides are just as bad. They're fucking not.

QFT.

 

[Kusagari]

So, just like Cho he was pretty much a nut in school and everyone realized it. It's kind of disturbing how with so many of these killers they make their craziness blatantly obvious in such a setting.

 

[water_wendi]

After watching his youtube videos earlier and reading what the NYT put together about him, it sounds very much like he had schizotypal personality disorder or something along those lines.

 

[ivysaur12]

Even if she recovers to the point where one day she will be able to serve, Rep. Gillford obviously isn't going to be in Congress anytime soon. Who is going to take her spot? Will anyone? And if so, will Jan Brewer have to pick someone?

 

[Diablos]

Even if she recovers to the point where one day she will be able to serve, Rep. Gillford obviously isn't going to be in Congress anytime soon. Who is going to take her spot? Will anyone? And if so, will Jan Brewer have to pick someone?

Special election.

 

[GhaleonEB]

And we've got people like yourself feigning willful fucking ignorance when it comes to people on the right espousing nothing but eliminationist rhetoric for years. Until you change the discourse of the talking heads and hateful people on the right, there will be those that take their message literally. And yet people have the gall to post false equivalency bullshit about how both sides are just as bad. They're fucking not.

So true.

 

[Spire]

NY Times profile
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp

It's obvious that he is very disturbed. It's a shame he couldn't get the help he needed and it progressed to a point of violence.

 

[water_wendi]

It's obvious that he is very disturbed. It's a shame he couldn't get the help he needed and it progressed to a point of violence.

Yea its pretty sad.

 

[ethic]

Nine year old who died. RIP. So sad. *tears up.

She was born September 11, 2001.

Odd coincidence of... something

 

[GillianSeed79]

She lived? Yay. Makes me very happy.

One last post before I go to bed. She's still critical. With a head wound like this it will probably be days before it's know if she'll live in the end. Her brain is likely swelling. They will do all they can to relieve the pressure. Her head likely looks like a watermellon right now. If she survives, you don't make 100 percent recovery from a head wound like that. She's probably looking at severe loss of motor and speech skills. You don't walk out of the hospital fine and dandy after taking a shot to the head. If she's lucky she might be as functional as say James Brady. Just keep that in mind when you hear words like recovery.

 

[ivysaur12]

One last post before I go to bed. She's still critical. With a head wound like this it will probably be days before it's know if she'll live in the end. Her brain is likely swelling. They will do all they can to relieve the pressure. Her head likely looks like a watermellon right now. If she survives, you don't make 100 percent recovery from a head wound like that. She's probably looking at severe loss of motor and speech skills. You don't walk out of the hospital fine and dandy after taking a shot to the head. If she's lucky she might be as functional as say James Brady. Just keep that in mind when you hear words like recovery.

If she's lucky is the operative word.

It's an in and out guys... If the next few days go well (which we don't know at this point) she's not going to be strutting back into Congress in a few weeks. At best, she'll retain some motor function on one side of her body and slurred speech. It's not going to be pretty and she'll be severely handicapped for the rest of her life.

Besides killing a small girl and other staffers, he's ruined the rest of this woman's life. She'll never, ever be the same.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I think it's incredibly funny to hear you pointing fingers about right-wingers engaging in "fear mongering, factual distortion, and 'truthiness'" in this thread...since this thread was filled with tons of "fear mongering" and such from the left regarding the eeeeeviiiiil Tea Partiers and their deranged gunmen, taking inspiration for mass murder from Sarah Palin.

But that's just me. Carry on... I'll get y'all started where you left off:

Tea Party = "stupid, crazy, evil"
Left-Wing = "elevating the debate"

gotcha.

Please

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Obama health care logo is damn close to a Nazi swastika logo

Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, ruled by dictate.

There is some fear [about the "death panels"] because in the House bill, there is counseling for end-of-life. And from that standpoint, you have every right to fear.

The American left does not embrace the kind of rhetoric and propaganda based on negative emotions like fear, hate, and anger, or condone the evocation of violent imagery like the right. Even when the appeal is easy picking. During the health care debate, you heard the following statements from democrats and the white house:

"The most common cause of bankrupcy in the US is because of health care expenses."
"Millions of Americans have been denied health coverage due to preexisting conditions."

NOT
"Insurance companies throw people out on the streets and take away everything they own for getting sick"

NOT
"Hundreds of premature babies die every year because the parents can not afford to pay for the procedures to save their child and the health insurance providers will not pay for coverage because the baby's prematurity is a pre-existing condition"

and certainly no talk about the president of the united states trying to "pull the plug on grandma."

Such rhetoric is generally frowned upon and outright condemned by the entire political establishment on the left. Do you remember MoveOn.org's campaign calling bush a Nazi? Every democratic politician and nearly everyone else on the left condemned that campaign, and no one embraced it or tried to associate themselves with it.

Do you remember when Hilary Clinton evoked the imagery of political assassination when justifying her decision to not drop out of the democratic primaries when she was all but mathematically eliminated? I do, and everyone on the left except the crazy feminists at hilaryis44 was condemning it, from bloggers to jon stewart to keith olbermann to rachel maddow to congressmen and women.

"My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. I don't understand it," she said, dismissing calls to drop out.

The left condemns this kind of hate and divisive rhetoric whether it comes from Rush Limbaugh, Hilary Clinton, Glenn Beck, or the United States Department of Justice. The right embraces it, and any ttime an influential figure invokes such propaganda makes this country less safe for all Americans.

 

[ivysaur12]

Just read this on Wikipedia:

In the legislature, Giffords worked on the bipartisan Children’s Caucus, which sought to improve education and health care for Arizona’s children. Critics of this plan argued that it amounted to taxpayer funded daycare. She worked with Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano to promote all-day kindergarten. Giffords supported raising more money for schools "through sponsorship of supplemental state aid through bonds and tax credits that could be used for school supplies." She was awarded Arizona Family Literacy’s Outstanding Legislator for 2003.[10]

5% literacy rate?

Ugh, what a fucking tragedy.

 

[beat]

BTW, about the "oh, he was mentally ill" line of thought...

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

We're too quick to use "mental illness" as an explanation for violence.

[...]

A wave of amateur diagnoses soon followed, most of which concluded that Loughner was not so much a political extremist as a man suffering from "paranoid schizophrenia."

For many, the investigation will stop there. No need to explore personal motives, out-of-control grievances or distorted political anger. The mere mention of mental illness is explanation enough. This presumed link between psychiatric disorders and violence has become so entrenched in the public consciousness that the entire weight of the medical evidence is unable to shift it. Severe mental illness, on its own, is not an explanation for violence, but don't expect to hear that from the media in the coming weeks.

Seena Fazel is an Oxford University psychiatrist who has led the most extensive scientific studies to date of the links between violence and two of the most serious psychiatric diagnoses--schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, either of which can lead to delusions, hallucinations, or some other loss of contact with reality. Rather than looking at individual cases, or even single studies, Fazel's team analyzed all the scientific findings they could find. As a result, they can say with confidence that psychiatric diagnoses tell us next to nothing about someone's propensity or motive for violence.

[...]

The fact that mental illness is so often used to explain violent acts despite the evidence to the contrary almost certainly flows from how such cases are handled in the media. Numerous studies show that crimes by people with psychiatric problems are over-reported, usually with gross inaccuracies that give a false impression of risk. With this constant misrepresentation, it's not surprising that the public sees mental illness as an easy explanation for heartbreaking events. We haven't yet learned all the details of the tragic shooting in Arizona, but I suspect mental illness will be falsely accused many times over.

 

[outunderthestars]

Nine year old who died. RIP. So sad. *tears up.

fuck fuck fucking fuck. What a sad world we live in when someone is willing to point a gun at a beautiful child like this. I have lost all faith in mankind.

 

[ivysaur12]

BTW, about the "oh, he was mentally ill" line of thought...

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

Well, yeah. But a psychiatric disorder coupled with extreme delusions and paranoia are most likely the reasons why he killed her.

It could be because he thought she was working with Obama to lower literacy rates in America. It could be because he thought she was going to stop him form dreaming, thus being a good citizen. It could be because he listened to Sarah Palin and thought the gun target really meant "don't retreat, reload!". It could be because she was pro-choice. It could be because she wasn't liberal enough. It could be because he thought she was an idiot.

There is obviously a motive. What that motive is and how far off the map it is remain to be seen. We might never know.

 

[Paznos]

Wow how incredibly sad and tragic

 

[Allard]

If she's lucky is the operative word.

It's an in and out guys... If the next few days go well (which we don't know at this point) she's not going to be strutting back into Congress in a few weeks. At best, she'll retain some motor function on one side of her body and slurred speech. It's not going to be pretty and she'll be severely handicapped for the rest of her life.

Besides killing a small girl and other staffers, he's ruined the rest of this woman's life. She'll never, ever be the same.

We don't know how bad the damage exactly will be, it depends on just what brain tissue the bullet ended up damaging. I have an aunt that suffered a massive stroke in her frontal lobes, a stroke that should have out right killed her because her blood vessels essentially exploded on her brain tissue causing what could have been fairly substantial damage. She spent 4 week in intensive care with 2 weeks of those in critical condition... 7 months later after the incident you couldn't even tell anything happened to her. Her speech wasn't slurred, she had all her motor skills, her mind wasn't slowed etc. She has been that way for 20 years now and still going strong.

Still though even if she makes the best recovery possible, her life is shattered if nothing but from a psychological stand point. She will be one of the bravest people you can possible find if she decides to continue serving a congresswoman after this is all over because the act of being shot at by an assailant over your job has got to be mentally debilitating alone... and just think of what the rest of her family must be going through... hell every single person that was at that grocery store that happened to be near by at the time of the incident as well as their family members worried over their health.

 

[ivysaur12]

We don't know how bad the damage exactly will be, it depends on just what brain tissue the bullet ended up damaging. I had aunt that suffered a massive stroke in her frontal lobes, a stroke that should have out right killed her because her blood vessels essentially exploded on her brain tissue causing what could have been fairly substantial damage. She spent 4 week in intensive care with 2 weeks of those in critical condition... 7 months later after the incident you couldn't even tell anything happened to her. Her speech wasn't slurred, she had all her motor skills, her mind wasn't slowed etc. She has been that way for 20 years now and still going strong.

Still though even if she makes the best recovery possible, her life is shattered if nothing but from a psychological stand point. She will be one of the bravest people you can possible find if she decides to continue serving a congresswoman after this is all over because the act of being shot at by an assailant over your job has got to be mentally debilitating alone... and just think of what the rest of her family must be going through... hell every single person that was at that grocery store that happened to be near by at the time of the incident as well as their family members worried over their health.

I just have a hard time imagining that she'll ever regain her entire functions. There's a very, very small chance of that happening. Obviously it's a very small possibility, but it's probably not best to think that way. Again, we don't really know the severity of the damage and we probably won't for a few more days. Hell, we probably won't know if she'll live for another day or so anyways.

If she survives this and wants to run for office again, I would gladly donate large sums of money to her campaign.

 

[empty vessel]

BTW, about the "oh, he was mentally ill" line of thought...

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

The author of that piece is wrong in my opinion. Far from crimes by people with psychiatric problems being over-reported in the media, the links between mental illness and crime is severely--drastically even--underreported. I agree that there is almost assuredly over-reporting of sensational crimes caused by obvious mental illness (i.e., "crazy people"). These are sensational stories that sell newspapers. But mental illness plays a large role in average, ordinary crimes that people commit hundreds of times every day and which never see any media coverage (the overwhelming majority of crimes are never reported). Not to mention that the mental illness contributing to the criminal behavior usually goes undetected throughout the trial process and even in jail, where mental health services are woefully deficient.

This is not to say, of course, that mental illness, alone, causes crimes, which I think is a stigma that the well-intentioned author is trying to dispel. But that mental illness--from bipolar disorder and depression to schizophrenia--plays a role as a contributing factor in many crimes is absolutely true. Of course, one important thing to note is that it is usually untreated mental illness playing a role, given that lower class people usually have no access whatsoever to mental health care in the United States.

The author does not want people to fear people with mental illness. It is true that mental illness, alone, is not to be feared. But that isn't because mental illness doesn't play a causal role in crime. It absolutely does. It's because crime itself, especially violent crime, is extraordinarily rare. The overwhelming majority of people in the world, both those who have mental illnesses and those who do not, will never commit any violent crimes.

 

[Allard]

I just have a hard time imagining that she'll ever regain her entire functions. There's a very, very small chance of that happening. Obviously it's a very small possibility, but it's probably not best to think that way. Again, we don't really know the severity of the damage and we probably won't for a few more days. Hell, we probably won't know if she'll live for another day or so anyways.

I know, I just want to stay optimistic mostly . The family has already survived one death scare with the whole media reporting she died, I want to think something positive from how horrible this incident can be salvaged. But yeah if she survives her motor functions/memory etc. will be severly slowed, possibly non-existent and more then likely permanent.

 

[Deku]

Just found this out tonight, but the connection is abit strange.

Jared loughner the shooter played for one of the clans from Earth Empires, a web based MMO type game I play. It's based on Earth 2025 which was one of the oldest web based games which popped up during the tech bubble in 1999/2000.

http://forums.earthempires.com/Foru...3&z=the-arizona-shooter-was-a-sanct-lcn-soler

 

[Pristine_Condition]

The author of that piece is wrong in my opinion. Far from crimes by people with psychiatric problems being over-reported in the media, the links between mental illness and crime is severely--drastically even--underreported. I agree that there is almost assuredly over-reporting of sensational crimes caused by obvious mental illness (i.e., "crazy people"). These are sensational stories that sell newspapers. But mental illness plays a large role in average, ordinary crimes that people commit hundreds of times every day and which never see any media coverage (the overwhelming majority of crimes are never reported). Not to mention that the mental illness contributing to the criminal behavior usually goes undetected throughout the trial process and even in jail, where mental health services are woefully deficient.

This is not to say, of course, that mental illness, alone, causes crimes, which I think is a stigma that the well-intentioned author is trying to dispel. But that mental illness--from bipolar disorder and depression to schizophrenia--plays a role as a contributing factor in many crimes is absolutely true. Of course, one important thing to note is that it is usually untreated mental illness playing a role, given that lower class people usually have no access whatsoever to mental health care in the United States.

The author does not want people to fear people with mental illness. It is true that mental illness, alone, is not to be feared. But that isn't because mental illness doesn't play a causal role in crime. It absolutely does. It's because crime itself, especially violent crime, is extraordinarily rare. The overwhelming majority of people in the world, both those who have mental illnesses and those who do not, will never commit any violent crimes.

These are all good points.

 

[Digital Enhancement]

After reading the New York Times profile on him, this guy sounds similar to Timothy McVeigh.

 

[(._.)]

RIP

 

[Pristine_Condition]

After reading the New York Times profile on him, this guy sounds similar to Timothy McVeigh.

Not to me.

I kinda feel sad for this guy, because it seems like he was really totally insane, and needed help.

Tim McVeigh was not insane, and really nothing could have helped him. He was driven by ideology and hate to become a terrorist.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

A better incident of opportunity for further destruction of this country by the left couldn't have been handed to them in a present on Christmas morning. Their feigned gnashing of teeth in horror at this political attack in Tucson is laughable. Their relentless attack on this Republic, politically, socially, economically, has now been taken up a notch, fed by an event that they wanted to happen. The amoral left has been handed an opportunity, which, when you cut through their masterful manipulation of lies and deciet...was created by them. Political manuvering comes in all forms. The appearance of a mentally unstable person to further their objectives of the destruction of the U.S., is one form of the political instability they need to further deflect their true and obvious activities. Read these comments..."the cause is Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Fox news!!!". It is sophmoric but masterful political theatre...and this "play" is the beginning of the destruction of us all. The left has a plan for you to lose, America. You've just seen act one.

Holy shit.

 

[Pandaman]

Just found this out tonight, but the connection is abit strange.

Jared loughner the shooter played for one of the clans from Earth Empires, a web based MMO type game I play. It's based on Earth 2025 which was one of the oldest web based games which popped up during the tech bubble in 1999/2000.

http://forums.earthempires.com/Foru...3&z=the-arizona-shooter-was-a-sanct-lcn-soler

earth 2025, well thats a nostalgia bomb.

 

[leroidys]

Holy shit.

Wow. Who is that? The cognitive dissonance can't help but seep out in the writing style as well as the content.

It is sophmoric but masterful political theatre

... what now?

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Wow. Who is that? The cognitive dissonance can't help but seep out in the writing style as well as the content.




... what now?

I'm sure I'll be lambasted for this, but it's a comment from an article on Yahoo News. I know the shit spewing comes from both sides, but this is just pathetic and out of touch with reality.

 

[avatar299]

I'm sure I'll be lambasted for this, but it's a comment from an article on Yahoo News. I know the shit spewing comes from both sides, but this is just pathetic and out of touch with reality.

Hyperbole aside, some of that is true. People like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin will be blamed by people on the left, despite whether or not that is accurate. We saw that already in this thread.

 

[zon]

There has been a whole lot of stupid in this thread. Seeing that you yanks are so bothered with picking sides, maybe I should clarify with "both from the left and right"?

I'm hoping the injured victims all pull through. Has there been any information about the police questioning Loughner yet?