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[Kai Dracon]

Dude should shut his mouth.
His livelihood depends on the goodwill of the community and the community is largely pro LGBT. What on earth is he hoping to accomplish anyways?

This seems to be the practical truth.

Gabe ruffled feathers because he's not some random blockhead lost in the noise. He's a business, and took on the responsibility of being his own PR agent when he decided to be Funny Cartoon Gabe of Penny Arcade as a career.

People can complain about "oversensitivity" all they want, but Mike/Gabe is the one who says whatever stupid thing pops into his head without a filter.

 

[marrec]

I'm not trans, but I found it offensive as well. Looks like he back peddled and apologized a bit, shame the ignorance is as thick as it is when it comes out though.

Yep, perfectly cis here, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of attending PAX now. Mike's always come across to me to be a bit of a jerk, but now he seems driven to continue his ignorance as well.

 

[8bits]

People who receive death threats are also murdered all the time.

You're downplaying one issue to make another issue look worse.

That's what's disgusting here. You're pretending that death threats are unimportant, when they are, no matter who's receiving them. I'm not derailing a topic, simply reminding you that death threats are serious, doesn't matter who receives them.

EmiPrime is simply admitting the fact that because transgender people get murdered more than Gabe gets murdered means Gabe's opinion, which angers some transgender people, is to be taken more seriously than the death threats Gabe might receive. Perfectly logical

 

[Gestault]

Can you honestly tell me that he's poorly articulating himself here? Because it sounds like he's hardlining and actively antagonizing the people with concerns.

If he's thinking about the contention in terms of sex rather than gender? Then yes, absolutely.

 

[doublenagger]

I was with you on the death threats being a pretty serious thing, but are you honestly incapable of arguing your point without being offensive yourself?

Twitter is so messy that i didn't catch everything that penny arcade dude said. Sorry about the confusion

 

[Duffyside]

I was with you on the death threats being a pretty serious thing, but are you honestly incapable of arguing your point without being offensive yourself?

No, it is impossible to argue for Gabe's point of view without "being offensive," because anything other than "you're all totally right and wonderful human beings" is considered offensive in this argument.

 

[Schnozberry]

I'm not trans, but I found it offensive as well. Looks like he back peddled and apologized a bit, shame the ignorance is as thick as it is when it comes out though.

I think that's the main problem here. Ignorance is not a crime. Persisting in ignorance in light of new information is what makes you a hurtful person, and it seems that Mike tried to clarify and apologize after admitting to being an asshole. At that point, the people who continue to hammer away at him give me the impression that they are looking for a reason to be outraged.

 

[UncleSporky]

Literally no one is worried about that except for idiots who think having a sliver of respect for people different than you is an infringement on their own personal rights and freedoms.

No, this is seriously their mentality, and essentially what Gestault said.

"Now I can't call a person [X] even though they possess [identifier that commonly means they are X]?"

 

[Mermandala]

Beaker and Honeydew

 

[Cat Party]

Seems like the problem here is ignorance about gender and sex. Ignorance should be combated with education, not insults. When people are insulted, they don't want to learn, they want to defend themselves. That's what happened here.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Gabe doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender. Also doesn't take care of his teeth.

 

[Sqorgar]

That's...not really the point. Gender identity is more than your genitalia. Some former males identify as women and prefer to keep their old equipment, and vice versa. I think it's only respectful to call them by their preferred pronoun. It doesn't take any mental gymnastics or extra effort on my part to do so. That's why it sort of comes off as nasty when people stubbornly refuse to call a "her" a "her" regardless of her genitals. They're actively going out of their way to be frustrating.

The concepts and words used for gender have a long and storied past. They have literally hundreds, if not thousands, of years worth of context and meaning. Someone born a man but identifying as a woman is upset because someone thinks that boys have a penis. Is that a problem with the concept of gender, or is that a problem with that one person's insecurities? How far do we go to assuage that insecurity? Do we retcon the entirety of gender? Isn't that expecting a bit too much?

 

[blizzardjesus]

If he's thinking about the contention in terms of sex rather than gender? Then yes, absolutely.

/thread

this right here

 

[BobbyRobby]

No, it is impossible to argue for Gabe's point of view without "being offensive," because anything other than "you're all totally right and wonderful human beings" is considered offensive in this argument.

true, there's a lot of topics where nothing but complete submission will satiate people.

 

[KojiKnight]

Here's a dangerous line of thinking.... why can't Gabe have his own opinions on this subject?

I'm strictly pro-choice... but I definitely don't think ill of anyone that is pro-life (indeed, my wife is very pro-life). Yes, he made the mistake of being too "open" about his opinions... but that hardly makes him a horrible human being. The man has given millions to charities, he's fought a lot of gamer causes, etc and everything else... Why does him having a single opinion a lot of people don't agree with suddenly turn him into worse than Hitler that some people seem to be making him out to be?

Yes, Transgender is and the psychology behind it are REAL things and transgender people face REAL issues... but is a single person who made a single statement you don't agree with enough to turn him into a paraiah?

That is the only thing about this whole thing that baffles me...

 

[Casimir]

I wasn't there when the committees decided this. Mayhaps you have a link or some other source that defines them as such? It appears my dictionaries are out of date as they make no such distinction.

Your input was never needed nor wanted. Don't worry about it. You don't have to save the world yourself.

--------------

Using a common English dictionary? I'm not surprised.


Psychology, Anthropology, and Medical Sciences. Though there is individual idiosyncrasies between the fields. Especially anthropology, considering they still can't agree on how to define the subjects on which the seek to study. And then of course you have situations where researchers are lazy/ were educated in different generations of thought, and just use the context to differentiate and define them.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

That's...not really the point. Gender identity is more than your genitalia. Some former males identify as women and prefer to keep their old equipment, and vice versa. I think it's only respectful to call them by their preferred pronoun. It doesn't take any mental gymnastics or extra effort on my part to do so. That's why it sort of comes off as nasty when people stubbornly refuse to call a "her" a "her" regardless of her genitals. They're actively going out of their way to be frustrating.

To be honest with you I had no idea that you were not born a girl until just a couple months ago. When we met and hung out I always just thought you were a woman. Knowing your situation changed nothing about how I would treat you. I am happy to treat someone however they want to be treated. Wanna be a guy or a girl or a fox or whatever and I will be happy to treat you that way.



But I think that is very different from the physical reality of your human body.



I think you’re awesome and super talented. I have no idea what your body parts are and I don’t want to know. I will treat you as a woman if that’s how you present yourself to me.



I hate the idea that because I think boys and girls have different parts I am “transphobic” that pisses me off it makes me angry and so I lash out.

He made the sex/gender distinction, end of story (inb4 someone jumps on "fox" as implying he equates trans to pests). What he refused to do was pretend there isn't a biological compenent to "man" or "woman", which is entirely in the mainstream of medical science, no matter how much that hurts people's feelings.

Of course the psychotic transwarriors on twitter should be able to spam him with as much awful shit as they like - as soon as he lashes back he's being "unreasonable" and "trolling".

 

[doublenagger]

Seems like the problem here is ignorance about gender and sex. Ignorance should be combated with education, not insults. When people are insulted, they don't want to learn, they want to defend themselves. That's what happened here.

Twitter is the worst place ever to voice opinions
should be a lesson to anyone who's gonna use twitter to communicate

 

[PlayDat]

Getting real sick of people crying "fake outrage" every time there's some issue they don't understand. Would a little empathy be asking too much? GAF's taught me a lot about some of the stuff the trans community faces and while there may still be some things I'm not 100% clear on I get why some would want to skip PAX over his comments and that dumb panel.

I mean how could anyone think that was a good idea? An all white, mostly male table telling minorities and women that they shouldn't be speaking up on issues important to them? Really?

Sucks that dude's getting death threats though.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

If he's thinking about the contention in terms of sex rather than gender? Then yes, absolutely.

You couldn't have picked a worse video to link to.

There's a big difference between a person who biologically can't have babies wanting them, versus a person who just wants people to acknowledge them as a different gender.

And frankly, the batman metaphor shows he's not thinking about that contention, he's thinking about gender alone.

 

[Architechnophile]

No. They defended it for quite a while, but backed down from the t-shirts after one of the panellists stated she'd boycott if they appeared. So they asked people not to come in the t-shirts.

And I believe Gabe called out that tumblr for idiotic shit like "innocently" reporting that he had a singer who happened to be a rape survivor in his iPod playlist, implying he was taunting rape victims by playing that song.

Ah, okay. Definitely an ugly situation.

As an aside, I do think it's cool to see people in this thread learnin' things (like terms like "cis" and gender identity issues). Nice to see some good coming from it, and a healthy amount of people approaching things with an open mind here.

 

[Tamerlane]

Really, when you think about it, Gabe is exactly the same as the dude in the famous Tiananmen Square photograph.

lol Gabe is the most ridiculous name for some revolutionary freedom fighter unless we're talking Gabe Newell and PC gaming represents democracy (it does.)

 

[disastermouse]

Opened it expecting a typical overreaction to an innocent piece of tasteless humor...

Yep, that's definitely transphobic. That's a shame. PA is a pretty good strip and the guys do a lot of good work through PAX and Child's Play. You'd think you'd know when to shut your mouth about subjects you know nothing about, but I guess Gabe was never the brains of the duo.

I saw 'I hate cis men' and looked it up and thought - "Wait, no one cares that someone said 'I hate men who feel like they were born into a gender that matches their identity.'?"

If someone said they hated trangendered people, I see the problem with that - but I also have a problem with someone hating ME because I'm not transgendered.

 

[kittens]

https://twitter.com/fiddlecub/status/347795425878753280
https://twitter.com/fiddlecub/status/347795981301063680

Exactly. Gabe has been called out for this stuff over and over and over. He's had lots of people who have been (rightfully) angry with him, but he's also had people who have been very patient and forgiving. He can't write off his tweets as harmless, and he can't dismiss the many times he's been called out.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I think that's the main problem here. Ignorance is not a crime. Persisting in ignorance in light of new information is what makes you a hurtful person, and it seems that Mike tried to clarify and apologize after admitting to being an asshole. At that point, the people who continue to hammer away at him give me the impression that they are looking for a reason to be outraged.

Except that right now it sort of seems he is persisting in ignorance, because the emails he posted contain phrases like " Wanna be a guy or a girl or a fox or whatever and I will be happy to treat you that way" and "But I think that is very different from the physical reality of your human body." Or "When we met and hung out I always just thought you were a woman."

Ultimately he's agreeing to humor this person he's talking to, but not actually believe they're a woman (or that biological sex and gender performance can be different). That sorta sucks, I don't know.

 

[badcrumble]

The concepts and words used for gender have a long and storied past. They have literally hundreds, if not thousands, of years worth of context and meaning. Someone born a man but identifying as a woman is upset because someone thinks that boys have a penis. Is that a problem with the concept of gender, or is that a problem with that one person's insecurities? How far do we go to assuage that insecurity? Do we retcon the entirety of gender? Isn't that expecting a bit too much?

What it means to be a man, or a woman, has changed drastically and many times over the course of the 20th and 21st centuries. And this is a good thing. The meaning of gender has never been static, and a new understanding that decouples it from biological sex is a part of that history, not some attempt to change the past.

 

[Vodh]

No, it is impossible to argue for Gabe's point of view without "being offensive," because anything other than "you're all totally right and wonderful human beings" is considered offensive in this argument.

The point I was referring to was that death threats are a serious thing and should not be dismissed based on... pretty much anything. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gabe being an asshole.

Just because you're not in any actual danger, probably, doesn't mean it's okay to threaten you with death. And I believe there are other, more appropriate ways of calling someone out on being an asshole, as demonstrated by the vast majority of the responses to the situation.

 

[Deified Data]

I saw 'I hate cis men' and looked it up and thought - "Wait, no one cares that someone said 'I hate men who feel like they were born into a gender that matches their identity.'?"

If someone said they hated trangendered people, I see the problem with that - but I also have a problem with someone hating ME because I'm not transgendered.

I haven't seen anyone defend that statement, either.

 

[wildfire]

I think the question is why does a video game comic artist feel the need to weigh in on medical distinctions and then try to compare people asking to be treated as a woman to a person pretending to be Batman

I was examining his twitter record and he didn't start this discussion to talk about medical distinctions.

He decided to create a panel for PAX to discuss the idea that bigotry shouldn't be analyzed in games.

Someone objected to that and Gabe said if you don't like the panel don't go to it.

Julie (who is either trans or is a staunch defender of them) made an off the cuff remark about Gabe's past history of being dismissive of trans.

So he responds to a person he has a history with sarcasm and bluntness because they know him.

 

[anaron]

Ugh, asshole.

 

[Conciliator]

Kind of likes the 'dickwolves' thing, this would be so much easier on everyone if they would just say 'Sorry, I wasn't thinking' as soon as they get confronted about this stuff.

 

[Anoregon]

I got to the point where someone tweeted "woman is a social construct" and realized there is just no way for me to deal with internet gender issue discussions without me just hating everything everyone says.

 

[Nome]

I wasn't there when the committees decided this. Mayhaps you have a link or some other source that defines them as such? It appears my dictionaries are out of date as they make no such distinction.

Sex and gender are only different in psychology and sociology. Outside of the sciences, they're interchangeable. There's nothing wrong with your assessment. They're used in the context of Gender Identity Disorder. Gender used in vernacular to signify social identity is a relatively recent development.

 

[JDSN]

Its awesome to know that if anything this will make his patethic fanbase to double down on their militant defense of this asshole, kinda like it happened with Chick-fill-A after their homophobic stance.


Perfect time for a third Kickstarter to capitalize on those idiots.

 

[guek]

Can you honestly tell me that he's poorly articulating himself here?.

Eh? I think you're confusing what I'm saying. He's being an enormous asshole, yes, even he's willing to admit that. Mike is an average but well meaning person, ignorant in this instance and flawed but the same can be said of the people accusing him of being a bigot. Mike is not a bigot, not according to the actual definition of the word, but people sure love to treat him as such.

 

[badcrumble]

I saw 'I hate cis men' and looked it up and thought - "Wait, no one cares that someone said 'I hate men who feel like they were born into a gender that matches their identity.'?"

If someone said they hated trangendered people, I see the problem with that - but I also have a problem with someone hating ME because I'm not transgendered.

Do you understand that, for example, "reverse racism" isn't a useful or meaningful concept?

 

[8bits]

He made the sex/gender distinction, end of story (inb4 someone jumps on "fox" as implying he equates trans to pests). What he refused to do was pretend there isn't a biological compenent to "man" or "woman", which is entirely in the mainstream of medical science, no matter how much that hurts people's feelings.

Of course the psychotic transwarriors on twitter should be able to spam him with as much awful shit as they like - as soon as he lashes back he's being "unreasonable" and "trolling".

Nailed it.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Honestly I had no idea it was offensive to say if you have a vagina you are a woman. I thought it was basic biology. At this point if I see someone with breasts and assume they are a woman would I be wrong in doing that?

Then again I don't keep up with what is currently considered offensive and what isn't.

 

[GooeyHeat]

Taken individually, the remark about men having penises and women having vaginas simply sounds like something that could be corrected nicely. Considering Gabe's history, though, as well as this panel that basically says "sexism, racial stererotypes, and other forms of bigotry don't matter in video games", I can see why the response is a little more heated.

 

[Sqorgar]

What it means to be a man, or a woman, has changed drastically and many times over the course of the 20th and 21st centuries. And this is a good thing. The meaning of gender has never been static, and a new understanding that decouples it from biological sex is a part of that history, not some attempt to change the past.

But has it really changed? I don't think gender has changed, but that in a rush to be more inclusive, we are willing to make certain concessions that may benefit one party's ego to the determinant of clarity and brevity.

If you want to say that gender is something that can be measured and observed, then there's no choice but to take into account sex organs and reproductive capabilities when making that classification. If you want to say that gender is something you may choose, then we need a way to clearly communicate what gender identity has been chosen - maybe we need something different than "man" or "woman" to self identify ourselves. At no point should we muddy the waters by making words like "man" and "woman" as confusing and meaningless as possible.

 

[ReconPeon]

Nailed it.

Indeed he did.

 

[snorggy]

Summary as I understand it:

1) he expressed an opinion on a public forum

2) people disagreed with his statement

3) he childishly responds with what amounts to "whatever"

4) situation escalates because of his insensitivity and ignorance.

Basically dickwolves pt 2...

 

[KojiKnight]

Your input was never needed nor wanted. Don't worry about it. You don't have to save the world yourself.

--------------

Using a common English dictionary? I'm not surprised.


Psychology, Anthropology, and Medical Sciences. Though there is individual idiosyncrasies between the fields. Especially anthropology, considering they still can't agree on how to define the subjects on which the seek to study. And then of course you have situations where researchers are lazy/ were educated in different generations of thought, and just use the context to differentiate and define them.

Sooooo.... what you're saying is... you don't have any sources where the cultural definition of Man and Woman are defined as you stated?

Maybe you should go back and read some of my other posts... I had gender identity issues. I have a bi wife. I have a lot of friends in the LBGT community... but I'm also a realist and an anti-revisionist. I've yet to see a single definition of Man and Woman as you've described. I have no problem, however, of people referring to themselves either as they feel like it. I also don't take offense if someone calls me a Wizzygot or any other word. That said, English language is made up of words with definitions that we as English speakers have generally agreed upon. This agreement is why the English language (or any language) works.... because there is a general consensus on what words mean.

It's why the English language is always evolving, always adding new words and having old ones go into disuse. That said, unless there is a general consensus on a word changing it's defined meaning, I don't see the problem with using the word as it's defined in the majority of English literature.

Now, you can either have a giant semantics debate with me where no one wins, or we can go back to discussing the REAL issues that face the LBGT community. I'm okay with either... but next time keep your quasi-insults to yourself. You don't help your cause by talking down to people.

 

[Via Purifico]

Since when did the internet became a place where you have to watch what you're saying?

 

[Schnozberry]

Except that right now it sort of seems he is persisting in ignorance, because the emails he posted contain phrases like " Wanna be a guy or a girl or a fox or whatever and I will be happy to treat you that way" and "But I think that is very different from the physical reality of your human body." Or "When we met and hung out I always just thought you were a woman."

Ultimately he's agreeing to humor this person he's talking to, but not actually believe they're a woman. That sorta sucks, I don't know.

Well, maybe he's trying to delineate between the physical reality and the psychological reality, because that's is a real struggle for some people to come to grips with. It comes off as ignorant and insensitive, but I'm not sure I am willing to assume his motive is to be hurtful. I think he's struggling with his own ignorance in a very public way, and that's an extremely difficult thing to do for anyone, especially in our internet culture that is so quick to belittle people who don't fit into the tight quarters of acceptable opinion.

He at least admitted that he was falling back on an old crutch, which is that in response to criticism he lashes out and becomes an asshole.

 

[rocketknight]

But has it really changed? I don't think gender has changed, but that in a rush to be more inclusive, we are willing to make certain concessions that may benefit one party's ego to the determinant of clarity and brevity.

If you want to say that gender is something that can be measured and observed, then there's no choice but to take into account sex organs and reproductive capabilities when making that classification. If you want to say that gender is something you may choose, then we need a way to clearly communicate what gender identity has been chosen - maybe we need something different than "man" or "woman" to self identify ourselves. At no point should we muddy the waters by making words like "man" and "woman" as confusing and meaningless as possible.

Yes, because accepting trans people as the men and women they are is going to totally ruin language forever and leave you confused and adrift in a boat with no oars on an ocean of genderless ambiguity. Won't somebody please think of the semantics!

 

[Velcro Fly]

Since when did the internet became a place where you have to watch what you're saying?

He's well known and makes his money off of the internet.

It's the same reason why the person who said they hated cis men isn't getting blasted for being about as ignorant.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

He made the sex/gender distinction, end of story (inb4 someone jumps on "fox" as implying he equates trans to pests). What he refused to do was pretend there isn't a biological compenent to "man" or "woman", which is entirely in the mainstream of medical science, no matter how much that hurts people's feelings.

Of course the psychotic transwarriors on twitter should be able to spam him with as much awful shit as they like - as soon as he lashes back he's being "unreasonable" and "trolling".

So why the hell does a comic artist give so much of a shit about the mainstream of medical science that he's willing to repeatedly piss off people by being obtuse?

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Since when did the internet became a place where you have to watch what you're saying?

You don't have to watch what you're saying at all. You do, however, have to deal with the repercussions when people don't like what you're saying.

 

[Phife Dawg]

Transgendered people are all just men who want to have babies and are fighting against reality. Wow. But good job getting your idea of transgendered people from a comedy movie made in the 70's.

That's basically the discussion, it revolves around "persons with or without a vagina deciding what they are called" (transgender etc.) and Gabe taking up the position of he/she/etc. "doesn't have a vagina" (womb). It being taken from a comedy movie from the 70s just shows how old and clichéd this discussion is.

If someone with no vagina decided he wants to be a woman, then that's fine with me, doesn't make her one though (biologically). I see no problem pointing that out (not biologically a woman). But apparently Gabe did have a problem with first one as well? Twitter is kind of hard to follow.

Is your favorite philosopher Louis CK?

I don't even know who that is. Someone from the US I presume and possibly transphobic/homophobic I guess (EU citizen here). If it fits your agenda you can lump me wherever you like.