Trans people are murdered all the time for being trans.
Nobody cares about an childish millionaire getting a couple of meaningless death threats on twitter.
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Did something happen with PAX or Penny Arcade today?
- Thread starter jbug617
- Start date
Trans people are murdered all the time for being trans.
Nobody cares about an childish millionaire getting a couple of meaningless death threats on twitter.
There are transgendered people on GAF who would find what he's saying pretty fucking offensive.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
If there's a tumblr blog about it, that must mean that the outrage means nothing. Can't outsmart me this time, internet!
doublenagger
Banned
So it's okay to give out death threats to hetero normative cis gendered straight while males?
I can think of a lot more people society hates than transgendered.
But let's overlook all the charity PA does for sick children because someone said "boys have a penis" on twitter, cause that's basically as bad as saying all transgendered people should be lynched.
Some traditional gender roles have a biological basis. Others are social constructs. It's not completely one or the other. There was a movement in psychology a while back that tried to explain away the differences between men and women completely as modern social constructs, but comparative behaviour studies with primates and other species are not really aligning with that belief.
Here is an example of such a study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755553/
Considering that it is not that uncommon for a person who is physically female (right down to having female genitalia) to be genetically male (possessing a Y chromosome), I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that some people are going to be mentally/neurologically female, even though they are otherwise physically male.
After that, it is a matter of debating what defines a man/woman. The role they identify with in society? Their physiology? Their genetic makeup? From a social perspective, I'd say the first one makes the most sense. Just like, biologically, I think most people would agree having a vagina/penis is a better indicator of your sex than having a XX or XY chromosomal composition.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Might want to read the thread. It's a pretty sensitive issue for some people.
KojiKnight
Member
I wasn't there when the committees decided this. Mayhaps you have a link or some other source that defines them as such? It appears my dictionaries are out of date as they make no such distinction.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
"Hey look mom, I can post strawman arguments on the internet!"
Only the most oppressed people deserve the right to criticize.
Well as I understand it, the "you are a woman if you have a vagina" was directed at a transgendered co-worker of Gabe's. I don't think it's a statement of belief for or against transgendered people as a whole, but it was a bit of a dickish thing to say to a transgendered person in general.
Yes. This thread is going nowhere fast.
Illithid Dude
Member
Mike is also known for being very Christian (he famously kicked Jerry out of his house for being an atheist), which might have influenced his comments.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
is he? i think he's saying that he doesn't consider a gendered woman, sexually female unless she has a vagina.
i really think this boils down to him using the word 'woman' differently. but in the end i personally have no problem calling people whatever they want to be called, except for like, 'master'.
doublenagger
Banned
Apparently it's fine if you send out death threats to people who are:
1- rich
2- white
3- males
why?
I think, and this is probably going to come off as a bit insensitive, but that gender has been a single thing for almost the entirety of the human race. There have been aberrations, but they were either ignored or ridiculed to the point of exclusion. But in trying to build a more inclusive society (a good thing - more or less unprecedented in human history), we now have to confront the ideas of gender identification and what that truly means.
I think transgendered people are extremely sensitive to how gendered words are used precisely because they don't accurately describe them - or worse, accurately describe them in a manner different from that which they wish to be described as. Someone who is born a man but identifies as a woman will never find peace with themselves or with society as long as nobody else identifies them as a woman also. Since we are talking about issues core to their very identity, the defensiveness is justified and expected - though not, in my opinion, appropriate.
Paper Sparrow
Member
All this cis/trans talk is making me think of Organic Chemistry. *shivers*
Honestly, I know nothing about transgender issues, but from where I stand, there seems to be an overreaction from both sides. PA Guy should have never let it get this out of hand and those criticizing shouldn't have wasted their time.
Honestly, I know nothing about transgender issues, but from where I stand, there seems to be an overreaction from both sides. PA Guy should have never let it get this out of hand and those criticizing shouldn't have wasted their time.
Wait...so just because he holds opinions which you don't agree with and because he has more money than you, death threats mean nothing? The fact that you lack the value of the life of those who you disagree with is very discomforting.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
But it isn't.
Nobody said that.
You are posting things that nobody said.
Hence, you are posting a strawman argument.
Not what was said. Boy GAF loves to fail reading comprehension today!
UncleSporky
Member
He's actually not Christian, but he believes in god. Essentially one of those who doesn't like the religious construct but is still a theist.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
The distinction between "sex" and "gender" is outmoded and problematic.
Any attempt to generalize "vagina = woman" and "penis = man" is not okay. In doing so, you're ignoring the existence of every single person who lives a sexuality that doesn't fit those narrow constructs.
Even if we're strictly talking about anatomy, why do you say that "vagina = female sex" and "penis = male sex"? It's a totally arbitrary and made-up idea that, yes, has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it's not real. It's not science. It's just something someone made up centuries ago, and not surprisingly, it's painfully out of date now.
Any attempt to generalize "vagina = woman" and "penis = man" is not okay. In doing so, you're ignoring the existence of every single person who lives a sexuality that doesn't fit those narrow constructs.
Even if we're strictly talking about anatomy, why do you say that "vagina = female sex" and "penis = male sex"? It's a totally arbitrary and made-up idea that, yes, has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. But it's not real. It's not science. It's just something someone made up centuries ago, and not surprisingly, it's painfully out of date now.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Wait, really? Was that when they first met, or something and he's since eased up on other people's beliefs?
No, you just clearly don't understand the entire situation and I have no idea why you were so eager to show everyone that.
Post of the thread.
Also it's one thing to say something potentially insensitive on Twitter, it's another when you react like an insecure asshole when you get called out for it.
blizzardjesus
Banned
So everything i learned in sex ed is wrong... thanks interent.
doublenagger
Banned
This is not an acceptable view to take on death threats no matter the intended recipient. You should be ashamed of yourself. Your no better than the people you hate.
Death threats are wrong, but the death threats aren't representative of those making counterpoints to Gabe's rather insensitive stance, nor do they detract from the fact that he said a very insensitive thing to someone on a topic he knows next to nothing about, and this offended them.
sex =/= gender
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Yes.
If you really think Gabe is at risk of being murdered because of the stupid things he posts on twitter you are as simple as he is.
UncleSporky
Member
To be entirely fair, what was specifically said is that nobody cares, which is not necessarily the same thing as considering it a positive thing.
Seems to me this is based on a confusion surrounding semantics more than anything else. Gabe is taking about biological gender, not gender identification, he's just poorly articulating himself as usual. If saying having two X chromosomes makes you a female is offensive, I'm not sure what to tell you.
But of course people will jump in to fill the gaps to fit their own narrative. Hate is a fun activity for us humans
But of course people will jump in to fill the gaps to fit their own narrative. Hate is a fun activity for us humans
Phife Dawg
Member
Is it appropriate to post something from Life of Brian? Why yes, I think it is.
Always gets me and kind of sums up the point I guess (sex/gender/etc.).
EXPotemkin
Member
The problem that a lot of people here don't see it as an issue...is an issue. lol
There's more than one charity for sick children.
By the same token, I can understand the conceptual resistance to changing language to fit individual desire if that language has a purpose. It's very likely Holkins is thinking of this in terms of "sex." He's saying in effect, "no, just because you want to identity as a woman doesn't make you biologically a woman," when the situation being reacted to is more in terms of gender.
Look at it this way: many labels do exist for a reason. If a person were born with green eyes, but deeply believed that they were "meant" to have brown eyes, I don't think their California license should say "brown eyes." I think this is how Holkins is thinking about it. Not to deliberately dismiss the individual, but to think of it in terms of the words having particular meaning. The way he's looking at it, he's not mistreating or disrespecting any individual, he's insisting that a meaning be applied consistently. I'm inclined to comply with a person's desire to be identified as they wish, but I'd be lying if I said I can't understand why he made the comment he did.
doublenagger
Banned
We have a problem here then. I understand english enough to know that what was said was exactly what i pointed out.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree.
I'm @pikoeri. Taking one tweet of the conversation Gabe and I had out of context isn't a good thing to do, as it was a big conversation, and this tweet came when that conversation had already been in progress.
As someone who has done five panels at PAX events so far that deal with issues of inclusiveness in the gaming community/industry, the acceptance of this panel does bother me to some degree. Obviously there's a level of "difference of opinion", and there are plenty of panels that go on that I either don't care about or might not agree with. However, this panel's originally stated intent directly calls out panels like mine, and others who do feel that the struggle for inclusiveness in this industry is a very big deal.
If the panel was simple "we take games too seriously," I'd have no problem. This panel is feeding into the sentiment that arguments of more racial and gender equality in gaming is a bad thing, and that's something I can't accept.
We're just about at the deadline for submitting our plans for our next panel for PAX PrimeI'm thinking very hard if I want to be a part of that or not. On one hand, I appreciate the chance PAX has given me (and us) to educate people on the topic of the trans community. On the other hand, this panel that PAX AUS has accepted directly goes against the things we talk about.
The outrage generated by the original comic was totally unwarranted.
The outrage generated by the T-Shirt was completely justified.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Can you honestly tell me that he's poorly articulating himself here? Because it sounds like he's hardlining and actively antagonizing the people with concerns.
Apparently you don't.
I will not agree to disagree. You are wrong, and I would continue to argue my point as long as you are willing. However, if you choose to not further this discussion, then I have nothing to argue.
I thought he was just kinda vaguely religious? He came across as a deist when he and Jerry discussed religion on Downloadable Content a few years back.
Agree. I think that's what Gabe was acknowledging in his post.
He made a shorthand remark on twitter, one which was easy to interpret as ignorant, insensitive or transphobic. Though I don't think that was his intent. But he reacted defensively and needlessly escalated what could have been defused. Honestly he comes across in his news post as ignorant to the distinction between sex and gender, not transphobic. (It actually is an easy conversation to have - he just seems uncomfortable having it.)
EmCeeGramr
Member
thanks for clarifying what the truth is and how there's a double standard against white straight men, neogaf user "doublenagger"
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i think this is it. at most, at this point, i feel like the worse you could accuse gabe of is confusing gender and sexuality (or accuse his attackers of confusing them depending on how you use the terms 'man' and 'woman' yourself). unless he's said anything directly targeting transgendered people then this all seems to have been blown out of proportion.
i also understand that transgendered people are attacked left and right in society, and that may cause victims of that abuse to see some arguably fair statements as an attack, and i sympathize with that.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I'm aware that the scientific debate about how much biology influences gender roles is still up in the air, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the established definition of gender itself, which is what is germane to my argument. It's a term understood to be behavioral, cultural, and psychological in nature. In other words it is the subjective category, which is the reason why it can be divorced from objective biological sex in the first place.
doublenagger
Banned
Ok we get it. Personal death threats are not important. Not at all.
At least that's what you personally think. You're entitled to your own opinion.
Architechnophile
Member
I missed all that fuss when it occurred, but my understanding is that they made overtures of apology/understanding, then proceeded to snarkily make fun of those who felt offended over the course of the next months/years. There's a whole tumblr devoted to timelining it, somewhere.
I agree about the comic, personally, and tend to err on the side of okaying such humor, as it's intentionally absurd and leverages the horror of the event in question in order to make its point, rather the opposite of condoning it. There's discussion to be had about the place of such humor in rape culture though, I think - as it unfortunately occupies a space next to the frighteningly large bloc of people that find rape amusing in-and-of-itself. Then there's the trigger issue, too. It's a complicated, sensitive subject.
I suspect PA would have done better to acknowledge that, rather then get reactionary about it.
UncleSporky
Member
Therefore, we must overlook all charities wherein
a) a founder of the charity has said something that some people consider dickish
b) more than one of said charity type exist