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[Circle Jerk]

i thought the dickwolves comic was hilarious to be honest. for all the fantasy murdering gamers do, it's odd that merely the implication of fantasy rape hit a nerve.

It was less the joke, more the aftermath. They were told why it was a weird joke and they decided to like, triple down on it by having a really shitty response comic to it, selling a Dickwolves shirt and then saying they can't wait to see them at PAX. They have this weird issue where if someone takes offense to what they say they feel this need to double down on it, often making the situation way worse.

 

[Velkyn]

THAT's considered offensive now?

Give me a fucking break. People are so absolutely desperate to be offended. Get over yourselves.

It's offensive when you're saying it to a transgendered person who has not undergone any surgery. It's not like transgendered people are asking you to bend over backwards for them, but just don't be a dick to them and no one gets offended.

I agree, it's not offensive as a statement in a vacuum but it depends who you say it to.

"Hey, nice leg you got there" isn't an offensive statement, but when you're saying it to a amputee, you're being a dick.

 

[Zaventem]

I don't even understand why people get so upset about what a random person says on Twitter. Who cares? People say messed up stuff everywhere, why even give them your attention? If you honestly KNOW the person, that's one thing, but if you don't then why bother? I guess some people just love the drama.

3rd wave feminism.

 

[Van Owen]

Transgender people and their staunch defenders are probably the most hypersensitive minority group I can think of. I honestly think some of them get off on being offended and trying to publicly shame people for not agreeing 100% with their view of the world.

Personally, I'll treat you as whatever gender you identify yourself as, but I'm not going to just forget that you aren't the sex you were born as either.

 

[ultron87]

If he was trying to be understood, he would have made an effort to communicate better. Instead, he started arguing and hard lining.

I'd imagine the response was pretty hostile so he just answered with hostility as well.

Doesn't make the initial ignorance okay, of course. (Though I also don't think it was the worst thing in the world.)

 

[jediyoshi]

I don't understand why people are offended, therefore there is nothing offensive about what is being said is a really fucking stupid argument.

Did you stop to think how much your analysis of people's lack of offense is offending? Jesus, do you win all your arguments by trying to be a bigger jerk? How far does that usually get you?

 

[kick51]

Are you saying that transgendered people have no right to have objections to things? Are you debating the validity of transgendered people in general? Or are you just sweeping the complaints under the rug of "hysterical offended people" and dismissing their comments?

It's the last one-- "hysterical offended people." Reserve your freak outs for when someone says something truly hurtful? At most, this requires polite correction.

 

[EmiPrime]

Women can have penises. Men can have vaginas. Sometimes people are born with genitalia that don't neartly fit in either of the two binary gender constructs.

We need to validate and honor peoples' gender identities, regardless of what they're packing in their pants.

Spot on.

And best of all, being respectful doesn't require any effort! Just listen and be kind. Why heap misery on someone? If you think that's over-sensitive really you are the one lacking all empathy and kindness.

 

[UncleSporky]

A person's bioogical sex is a fairly straightforward anatomical thing in most cases. Gender, however, is a social construct that's meant different things to different people over the years.

It's not "PC out of control" to separate those words any more than separating the ideas of race, ethnicity, heritage, etc.

What's the word for identifying with a different species?

sex = physical, gender = mental
species = physical, ____ = mental

 

[Sibylus]

Given all the people asking: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cis#Latin | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trans#Latin

Cis

1. on or to this or the near side of; short of
2. before

Trans

1. across, beyond

 

[Tummi Gummi]

If he was trying to be understood, he would have made an effort to communicate better. Instead, he started arguing and hard lining.

Yes, in response to such sober gems as "god i hate cis men" and "fuck penny arcade".

 

[KojiKnight]

This thread is dangerous... I want to participate... but I feel by merely stating my opinion I'll somehow be made out to be some sort of abhorrant monster... Which bothers me greatly, as I've said in other threads I had gender identity issues when I was younger. My wife is also bi (to be clear, I'm male, she's female). I have first hand experience and I understand the arguments on both sides as well as anyone who ISN'T directly involved can be...

I'll say this... I don't think Gabe is wrong with what he said. I also don't think transgender women are wrong at being upset by it. I do think this entire thing is taken on a massive life of it's own in a way that's destructive to EVERYONE'S argument.

I've already said to much... but I think I'll go a bit further just to make sure I'm viewed as some sort of monster... This argument is akin to if Gabe someone who is african american happens to have dark skinned. It is physically an accurate description with our definition of the English language. I can see how someone could be upset with being referred to as "dark", even if it was just a passing reference... and I could see someone's point if they got upset and being called racist because they point out something that is physically accurate...


*sigh* What I'm getting at is that there is simply no real good solution... Ignoring the issue won't make it better, but neither will insulting someone over it. You don't forward your cause by making someone defensive... you just end up starting a war which entrenches both sides far deeper. The person who mailed Gabe had the right approach... calmly explaining the situation and questioning why they'd say things the way they did. Make them think and realize how people who are actually involved in their lives feel instead of resorting to name calling.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I know right.
What are people going to get offended at next?
Some doctor getting yelled at by the parents when he calls a baby a boy due to the ultrasound...

You're failing to differentiate between biological sex and gender identification.

What if that boy grows up as someone who heavily identifies as a women despite having male genitalia? Should that person be forced to reject that psychological identity just because they have a penis? That's sure a quick way to push that person into mental illness and possibly suicide down the road.

 

[Duffyside]

If he was trying to be understood, he would have made an effort to communicate better. Instead, he started arguing and hard lining.

Oh no, he argued? How dare he.

 

[Coolwhip]

People care about the opinion of some dude that draws videogame comics? I see.

 

[Circle Jerk]

You mean fuck people? Why do you hate people? So much hate, Cartman86.

Did you stop to think how much your analysis of people's lack of offense is offending? Jesus, do you win all your arguments by trying to be a bigger jerk? How far does that usually get you?

You are not very good at satire, nor do you have any real understanding of why people are offended about this. That wouldn't be a problem if you were at least trying to educate yourself on the other sides ideas, but instead you're posting literal garbage in the false belief it mirrors what is being said on the "Gabe is an offensive person" side.

 

[-COOLIO-]

It was less the joke, more the aftermath. They were told why it was a weird joke and they decided to like, triple down on it by having a really shitty response comic to it, selling a Dickwolves shirt and then saying they can't wait to see them at PAX. They have this weird issue where if someone takes offense to what they say they feel this need to double down on it, often making the situation way worse.

i also thought the follow up comic was funny...

"rape is the worst".

and the concept of a dickwolf is mildly humorous on it's own. maybe i missed something but they seemed pretty apologetic when they made it clear that they didn't condone rape (go figure).

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

It's the last one-- "hysterical offended people." Reserve your freak outs for when someone says something truly hurtful? At most, this requires polite correction.

I don't think all of the replies were hysterical offended people. There was plenty of attempt to correct and talk, but Gabe seemed like he didn't want to listen to any of it and just argue.

Yes, in response to such sober gems as "god i hate cis men" and "fuck penny arcade".

Obviously the way to get people to listen to your point of view is to repeat the same thing over and over again and start insulting your audience further.

 

[Velkyn]

Yes, who could forget his comic in which he made fun of a person for failing to come to the aid of a male rape victim.

Clearly that means he loves and promotes rape.

Christ, people get so incredibly addicted to outrage that they just go hunting for it anywhere. It's a miserable way to live your life.

I'm not offended by what he says, but I can see how someone might be. All I'm saying is if Gabe doesn't know much about psychological triggers, rape, or transgender issues, he probably shouldn't talk about them.

 

[Xater]

This is the first time I've heard about there being a difference between gender and sex (English isn't my first language). Do we know he was talking about it from a psychological standpoint? He might have been talking strictly about the biology/chromosomes or whatever.

it's not only an English thing. In German "gender" is also borrowed to talk about the social construct, but it pretty much just relegated to use in a scientific context. i don#t think I ever heard anyone outside of university use it.

 

[ReconPeon]

I know right.
What are people going to get offended at next?
Some doctor getting yelled at by the parents when he calls a baby a boy due to the ultrasound...

Exactly...this stuff is getting crazy.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

On the blog Gabe quite openly said to the trans coworker "if you want to be treated as a woman, I'll treat you as a woman, no fuss". What he added was that doesn't change your underlying physical state. But apparently, even distinguishing between sex/gender isn't enough anymore.

I think the question is why does a video game comic artist feel the need to weigh in on medical distinctions and then try to compare people asking to be treated as a woman to a person pretending to be Batman

 

[electricpirate]

His posting of that email conversation is pretty good, and goes a good way to step back from the "Just being a dick" part.

I'm surprised Jerry Holkin didn't jump in, as I understand he's a pretty huge feminist, and generally pretty senstive to lgbt issues.

 

[Salamando]

that's true, and i dont mind calling people whatever they want, that's harmless enough. but gabe seems to be talking about sex rather than gender, no?

Looking at it from a Trans person's point of view, he's saying that you're not what you are (or think of yourself as), all because of the sexual organs you were born with. I can see where someone might take offense to that.

 

[Circle Jerk]

His posting of that email conversation is pretty good, and goes a good way to step back from the "Just being a dick" part.

I'm surprised Jerry Holkin didn't jump in, as I understand he's a pretty huge feminist, and generally pretty senstive to lgbt issues.

There is a difference between saying you are an ardent feminist and being a feminist, and Jerry has not realized that yet.

 

[Tangeroo]

I can definitely see why people are upset but I think the approach that most are taking is unhealthy for everyone involved. Gabe's friend Sophie Prell is taking the absolute right approach.

She isn't telling Gabe that he's wrong nor is she trying to force him into changing his opinion. Instead, she is illustrating to him how his comments make her feel which I feel is a far more effective and constructive way to approach the situation.

Those who are ignorant to something do not learn or change from being forced. They can only change through learning how their words and actions affect the others and they must purposefully decide to make that change for themselves based on what they've learned. If you force someone like Gabe to apologize without him truly understanding the weight behind what he's saying, it will be for naught.

 

[UncleSporky]

I think the question is why does a video game comic artist feel the need to weigh in on medical distinctions and then try to compare people asking to be treated as a woman to a person pretending to be Batman

There are people who believe they are a different person than they appear to be. Why must we attempt to cure them instead of be accepting?

Gabe was insensitive about this because it is obvious that he does not truly believe himself to be Batman.

 

[Gestault]

someone who is cisgendered identifies with their biological sex. I am a male who identifies as a male, I am cisgendered.

This isn't directed at you, I'm basically thinking out loud.

That sounds...categorically self-defeating. The designation of "sex" exists for a purpose, as does "gender." They have distinct meanings. Gender is culturally defined traits associated with a sexual "role." It's independent from "sex," which is the biological reproductive traits of an individual. Even "sex" allows for descriptions of overlapping traits. If someone insists on creating a new label under the gender category to separate those who "adhere" to the normal use of the terms, then an arbitrary division has been created. This is doubly so if it's used in a dismissive context, which is most of how I see it applied.

Is there nuance I'm missing here?

 

[jaxpunk]

oh internet what won't you take offense too now.

 

[rocketknight]

Transgender people and their staunch defenders are probably the most hypersensitive minority group I can think of. I honestly think some of them get off on being offended and trying to publicly shame people for not agreeing 100% with their view of the world.

Personally, I'll treat you as whatever gender you identify yourself as, but I'm not going to just forget that you aren't the sex you were born as either.

Do you think that trans people just happen to be "hypersensitive" or do you think that the people most hated by society probably do actually have more shit to resist and speak up about? Because the latter scenario is reality.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

https://twitter.com/juliepagano/status/347749438355283968

I don't know the context, but this is what's been appearing in my feed.

Oh...

This isn't directed at you, I'm basically thinking out loud.

That sounds...categorically self-defeating. The designation of "sex" exists for a purpose, as does "gender." They have distinct meanings. Gender is culturally defined traits associated with a sexual "role." It's independent from "sex," which is the biological reproductive traits of an individual. Even "sex" allows for descriptions of overlapping traits. If someone insists on creating a new label under the gender category to separate those who "adhere" to the normal use of the terms, then an arbitrary division has been created. This is doubly so if it's used in a dismissive context, which is most of how I see it applied.

Is there nuance I'm missing here?

I get what you're saying, but "cis" isn't really a new term - it's a scientific prefix that's been around for ages. People mainly use it to avoid calling people (who, sure, are the majority) whose gender and biological sex are the same "normal," because that unintentionally makes anyone who doesn't fall into that category "not normal."

 

[Twenty7KVN]

Transgender people and their staunch defenders are probably the most hypersensitive minority group I can think of. I honestly think some of them get off on being offended and trying to publicly shame people for not agreeing 100% with their view of the world.

Personally, I'll treat you as whatever gender you identify yourself as, but I'm not going to just forget that you aren't the sex you were born as either.

I agree 100%.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I think the question is why does a video game comic artist feel the need to weigh in on medical distinctions and then try to compare people asking to be treated as a woman to a person pretending to be Batman

Bingo.

When Gabe was questioned rationally and politely, he responded with sarcasm and arguing.

 

[doublenagger]

Spot on.

And best of all, being respectful doesn't require any effort! Just listen and be kind. Why heap misery on someone? If you think that's over-sensitive really you are the one lacking all empathy and kindness.

He deserved those death threats for stating facts, huh?

 

[Orayn]

There are people who believe they are a different person than they appear to be. Why must we attempt to cure them instead of be accepting?

Because there's evidence to suggest that gender dysphoria has a biological basis and isn't just "all in your head" or "because you feel like it."

 

[jediyoshi]

You are not very good at satire, nor do you have any real understanding of why people are offended about this. That wouldn't be a problem if you were at least trying to educate yourself on the other sides ideas, but instead you're posting literal garbage in the false belief it mirrors what is being said on the "Gabe is an offensive person" side.

If you want to completely ignore my original question, feel free to put up more barriers in this discussion. I'm not sure what you're looking for if you're deliberately trying to spew more hate, really what the internet needs right about now. Do you think you're being clever by trying to call out people over a forum?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Transgender people and their staunch defenders are probably the most hypersensitive minority group I can think of. I honestly think some of them get off on being offended and trying to publicly shame people for not agreeing 100% with their view of the world.

Personally, I'll treat you as whatever gender you identify yourself as, but I'm not going to just forget that you aren't the sex you were born as either.

you brave freedom fighter

 

[cosmicblizzard]

????

For the sake of a discussion, there should be an agreed upon meaning of the words you're saying. If not, you're either having an incoherent conversation or you're debating semantics, which is generally pointless.

 

[galvatron]

https://twitter.com/cwgabriel/status/347738351505375232

https://twitter.com/cwgabriel/status/347749345791193089

Just look through his feed.

@cwgabriel @emeraldskies @burgeroise you don't have to make webcomics about what life would be like if you were cool either but here you are

Destroyed.

 

[EmiPrime]

*sigh* What I'm getting at is that there is simply no real good solution... Ignoring the issue won't make it better, but neither will insulting someone over it. You don't forward your cause by making someone defensive... you just end up starting a war which entrenches both sides far deeper. The person who mailed Gabe had the right approach... calmly explaining the situation and questioning why they'd say things the way they did. Make them think and realize how people who are actually involved in their lives feel instead of resorting to name calling.

He has been spoken to before in private and told why what he said was busted. Instead of apologising and moving on from this he decided to repeat the same tweets just to troll and bully people.

Besides it's not up to trans people to spoon feed gender theory to every entitled man child on twitter. There are blogs, there are books. Gabe isn't interested in learning.

 

[Absinthe]

Part of it was the description of a panel at PAX Aus, which I am too lazy to look up, but at first was insulting to visible minorities / women - and then was changed after some complaints came up. This is the "fixed" text: http://aus.paxsite.com/schedule/pan...y-forgotten-that-games-are-supposed-to-be-fun

Also dickwolves.

I was going to not go back to PAX East bcs the panels were terrible the last 2 years, but now I have an even better reason to "KEEP ALL MY MONIES"


Dumboz being dumboz.


edit: found it!

So how did this "description" start this entire thing?

And what does that description have to do with people who are transgendered? I understand how the description may be offensive, just not how it got twisted into eliciting those types of responses from him.

 

[ReconPeon]

I agree 100%.

same.

 

[-COOLIO-]

It's offensive when you're saying it to a transgendered person who has not undergone any surgery. It's not like transgendered people are asking you to bend over backwards for them, but just don't be a dick to them and no one gets offended.

I agree, it's not offensive as a statement in a vacuum but it depends who you say it to.

"Hey, nice leg you got there" isn't an offensive statement, but when you're saying it to a amputee, you're being a dick.

that's fair but did he say anything offensive that was specifically targetted at transgender people, right? it sounds like he just uses 'woman' and 'man' to specify a persons biological sexuality. and it seems like the usage of 'woman' and 'man' still hasn't been properly redefined in a post-transgender society so that doesn't seem particularly unfair.

to further the point, i just googled the definition of 'woman':

wom·an
/ˈwo͝omən/
Noun
An adult human female.

it's woefully vague, all things considered.

 

[meltingparappa]

Lord have mercy on those who dare not to check their privilege while posting on twitter.

Also Mike has a brave habit of digging himself into a reaaaaaally deep hole very quickly.

 

[Tamerlane]

I AMA video games webcomic master, ask me about my opinion on the Tamil Tigers

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

More manufactured anger by tumblr/twitter social justice warriors.

 

[Casimir]

that's true, and i dont mind calling people whatever they want, that's harmless enough. but gabe seems to be talking about sex rather than gender, no?

Yes. He's confusing the two. And people in this thread seem to also erronously think that they are the same. This is the differentiation:



Biological:
Sex: Male / Female / Hermaphrodite(intersex)



Cultural:
Gender: Man / Women / Etc (other esoteric cultures may further categorize but western/eastern trends toward the dyadic)


*I'm still a bit unclear as too the history of the issue, so I'm only going off the captures generously provided by other Gaffers. The above is correct though.

 

[doublenagger]

He has been spoken to before in private and told why what he said was busted. Instead of apologising and moving on from this he decided to repeat the same tweets just to troll and bully people.

Besides it's not up to trans people to spoon feed gender theory to every entitled man child on twitter. There are blogs, there are books. Gabe isn't interested in learning.

What's wrong with truth and facts? They hurt too much?

 

[UncleSporky]

Because there's evidence to suggest that gender dysphoria has a biological basis and isn't just "all in your head" or "because you feel like it."

Have the same studies been performed in both cases, or is it a foregone conclusion that those other people, the ones who believe they are Jesus or an anthropomorphic fennec fox, are simply crazy?

It seems obvious, which is why I would think we'd want to take care not to let preconceptions cloud the science.

 

[Type2]

http://penny-arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometimes


Although Sophie pretty much said everything for him.......


Just thought id post this as well as the twitter stuff for all the confused people in here.