Ashamam
Member
I don't think that tells you anything other than it leans hard on ML. Whether that ML is working on per pixel, an object based model, or something entirely different isn't something you can tell from a single raw spec.
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Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?
- Thread starter mansoor1980
- Start date
Sure, but commercial differences aside, the point is that bc in classical sense no longer exists, either there are digital licences, or you need the legacy hw.
As for 'enhanced' while MS deserves credit for innovating things there(eg. auto hdr) there's a fair bit of double standards with regards to how emulators are judged. Nintendo and Sony get(rightfully) scrutinised for accuracy where MS gets a free pass. And things like select title enhancements to resolution are celebrated for xbox titles, but having it universal on PlayStation is even treated as a negative.
Its signal processing in the end. Using ML is a new tool for the domain, not replacing the domain itself(that I know of, there's reasons spatial approach to dlss failed).
ZehDon
Gold Member
You're still handwaving - and given the below, it's starting to come across as downplaying Xbox's consumer friendly approach while trumpeting Sony's - and now Nintendo's - garbage anti-consumer approach to older titles.
No double standards at all - Sony and Nintendo are both charging an on-going fee for access to their emulators. Free emulators I can download right now offer superior results to anything either Nintendo or Sony put up. That's not just something to be "scrutinised", that's something that should be criticised and mocked given the disgusting subscription requirments. Xbox is offering up its emulators free of charge. And even then, people are very much highlighting the inaccuracies in emulation. I'm most closely familiar with Halo and the inaccurate results across Microsoft's several emulators, but it's just one example of many that have been well documented.
According to Sony, they don't offer universal enhancements to backwards compatible titles. Do they now offer users the ability to run every PS1, PS2 and PS3 game available in their subscription service at 4k resolution, higher frame rates, widescreen, and with vertex and/or texture perspective correction, where applicable, on top? Or are you perhaps thinking of PS4 titles getting access to additional grunt when running on PS5, the same as Xbone titles when running on Xbox Series X? If it's the latter, you'll really need to show some examples of people demanding lower frame rates, slower loading times, and lower resolutions for their PS4 collection.
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Well, I guess they planned with this in mind, but despite having the hardware for it, it is just not powerful enough to make something with it. For AI stuff, you don't need much complexity, but very simple processors and from that many. That's why e.g. tensor cores are so small. They can't do many things, but what they can is deliver many, many of those simple calculations.
It's like with Minecraft RT for Xbox. They thought it was doable on Xbox, but in the end it was just to much for the GPU (just look how Minecraft RT sucks at AMD GPUs).
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PaintTinJr
Member
They both use twin independent trained database nodes, a multiple regression DL neural net if you will - the two nodes being to avoid bias of the first node's predictions and to avoid bias of the second node's inability to decline a bad fake or inability to accept a good fake. So both technologies having been trained using a DL neural net then use inference. So I'm not quite sure where exactly the two technologies are so different, other than one can consume frames and add latency to work out motion vectors in real-time - to handle ghosting - and can have a hardware run at lower clock and the chip cost 1/4 of the TV's BoM, and the other has motion vectors provided in advance to run on 10% of a £500 console GPU or have dedicated silicon in a +£500 GPU and run with minimal latency.
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"If you’re backwards compatible, you’re really backwards." (Microsoft, 2013)
PaintTinJr
Member
Also, the Xbox Series consoles require an online connection, and the ability to download those versions, so ironically it is no preservation guarantee without Microsoft remaining a platform holder and having a strategy that keeps those services running indefinitely.
Nintendo and PlayStation typically sell products that can work without online, and because firmware for the hardware can be distributed on the discs, years from now getting the PS4 games working on a fresh PS5 with just a 2year post launch game disc or firmware on a USB stick should still be possible, regardless of PlayStation's BC strategy at the time.
King Dazzar
Member
Whilst the past is important. Its the future I'm more interested in. X1X had an excellent enhancement program (which the Series S couldn't use) and the XSX added auto HDR too, but no longer the res boosts that X1X brought, which all then fizzled out. Though it becomes of less value if confidence in the current and future platform isn't there. If the future is precarious, which for me it is for Xbox, and the customer has a lack of trust and confidence, then all the good work done with BC and enhancements starts to lose its value. As its the ability to play some older, but still holding up well, titles on current and future hardware that's important to me. And I dont have a scooby doo what the future looks like for Xbox and its hardware.
I may pick up another XSX at some point, but it would be as a BC machine and not something for the future. What's so great in that?
I may pick up another XSX at some point, but it would be as a BC machine and not something for the future. What's so great in that?
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Sony isn't, you can buy the titles as well, only digitally(still not ideal if course, but let's keep facts straight).
And their selection is still very limited(50 odd ps2 titles and another 50 between ps1 and PSP combined).
Current emulators yes. But Sony's older efforts(on ps2,ps3 and PSP/vita) were best in class for compatibility, and even today homebrew still isn't at that level.
We just took it for granted back then that commercial emulation would always be so good, but that didn't stick.
Ok fair enough, i might have missed discussions on this.
Ps1,ps2 and psp are universally enhanced yes(resolution, texture filtering, performance/ load times).
The more advanced mods would be nice to see (though most can't be universal, like 16:9 hacks), especially HDR support to get CRT emulation/feel, but alas...
ZehDon
Gold Member
That's a fair clarification; some of their titles are indeed available for purchase, I was being far too general. As I've highlighted, though, prior purchases - like my PS1 classics from PS Vita - don't carry over, even for the same titles.
Actually, you might not be aware, but Sony actually shipped consoles like the PS2 with PS1 hardware inside - it wasn't technically emulated. I believe that's why the PS3 hardware revision had to drop backwards compatibility - they needed to get the cost down, and had to remove the specific hardware. Microsoft, however, has always employed software emulation. Their OG Xbox emulator released for the Xbox 360 is actually pretty special - the emu scene was behind it for years - and Microsoft got it running on a 360!
Ah, apologies then, I must have missed those additions. When I played at the initial launch of the subscription service, the PS1 games were all stuck at identical presentation to their original release - and some were even stuck at PAL framerates! Glad they've improved on that, that was a really shameful launch. I'll be sure to double check that kind of stuff moving forward.
Most certainly, but that stuff is to me a bit of a "nice to have". Higher resolutions, better frame rates (without breaking the game), and better load times - those are the default "no reason not to" features, at least for me.
They do with Sony titles like Legend of Dragoon and Wild Arms. I wish Square Enix would get on board with it though since I have several of their PS1 classics.
peish
Member
What a weird headline. Xbox series was the first console with machine learning, how much ML is used, it’s probably there in the games
Ps5 doesn’t have ML hardware
Sony is launching ps5 pro with more powerful ML hardware because that’s how time works
MS is not launching Series Pro, doesn’t mean they have been beaten to ML
Ps5 doesn’t have ML hardware
Sony is launching ps5 pro with more powerful ML hardware because that’s how time works
MS is not launching Series Pro, doesn’t mean they have been beaten to ML
Ashamam
Member
Was going to write up more but this reddit post basically says it all.
So whilst I couldn't say whether any Xbox games use ML, there is a quote from a dev for PS exclusive saying the PS5 definitely does.
all ML inference is, s the ability to utilize already trained data. this is why DLSS needs huge driver updates for every game that supports it. it just "infers" the frame generation based on the trained data that was done beforehand by much more powerful machines than the console.
PaintTinJr
Member
What exactly do you mean by that bolded part? Are you talking about ML acceleration? If not what do you think the requirements are for ML - inference ? In fact what do you think are the hardware requirements to train a model beyond a general purpose CPU or GPU compute, and the ability to handle large matrix multiplications, transposes and inversions?
he probably means something like tensor cores. ML inference can be run on normal shader cores from what i understand.
training a model requires specialized hardware, but that's not what the ps5 pro would be doing.
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PaintTinJr
Member
It doesn't require specialised hardware, just very powerful hardware if the time to process the volume of data can't be done on commodity hardware in a suitable time-frame.
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There was an excellent depiction of multiple linear regression calculations in an AMD Dual issue slide posted by Lysandros in a thread recently (IIRC) showing how the double flops on the new hardware halves the calculation time - as a minimum, probably more because of the smaller job count - of massive matrix calculations, illustrating that all ML AI DL is just maths with abstract partitioning of competing aspects in nodes(mutually exclusive trained functionality) that mimics brain biological neuron's independence and cooperation ..."neural network".
Despite the independence of nodes, a single compute shader could model all of "neural network" of the nodes - for performance reasons - provided the compute shader imodels the necessary level of abstraction between nodes.
IBM said:
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think you will find Faf knows
.Yes and no, the EU version of PS3 only included the GS chip not the Emotion Engine (nor the IOP/SPU2/IPU/GIF/etc…) which was emulated and the console still ran the vast vast majority of PS1 and PS2 games albeit they did lose a few titles I think.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I would say that on PS1, PS2, most 16 and 8 bits consoles, proper CRT emulation is much much much better than higher resolution rendering.
Yea that's been the most disappointing part of how they handled PSN classics. Especially after it worked between 3 consoles.
PS2 was an interesting mishmash. The launch units were 50% in hardware(rendering was emulated, cpu side was not). They later switched it to complete emulation when introducing the slim revision (which removed PS1 CPU from the machine).
PS3 emulated PS1 at launch (and that stayed for the whole gen), but it needed hw for PS2 at first. Over time they incrementally got PS2 to full software as well - but dropped disc compatibility when that was introduced - so we were left with about 300 digitally compatible PS2 titles by end of gen.
IIRC the number of compatible titles was much higher than on X1 for some reason (well - most likely licensing, again). Actually both Sony and MS did well that gen (300+ compatible titles for PS2/XBox). On PS4/X1 the number dropped to about 50 for both.
But then MS did up the game with actually emulating 360 - which was perhaps the most unexpected feat to date.
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Codeblew
Member
Not really. You can train with normal GPU's. They are not as fast as the specialized hardware of course, but it is still doable. For example, LeelaChessZero is trained from crowd-sourced GPU's.
you can also multiply with an abacus, point being every time a new playstation comes out they exaggerate the capabilities and make it sound like it can do thing it can't within reasonable expectations.
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PaintTinJr
Member
Even just using 5% of the current console GPUs are over 1/2 teraflop/s(500GFLOP/s), so how is a comparison with an abacus appropriate when deep learning has been going for decades like ~12GFLOP/s IBM DeepBlue that played Kasparov at Chess?
It seems like you've got an issue PlayStation hardware in general more than any actual know how about ML.
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Physiognomonics
Member
Hardware int8 is not strictly "machine learning hardware". You can do machine learning inference on FP16, which Sony first party developers definitely do. So MS talked a lot about machine learning (because they have better hardware for that, in theory) but AFAIK none of their games actually use that hardware, while Sony never talked about it but they actually do it real-time (machine learning inference) in their games.
Technically Sony already "beat Microsoft in machine learning" on PS5 generation.
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if that were the case no one would need CUDA / tensor cores and everyone would just training with cheap ass amds running too hot. stop arguing semantics
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PaintTinJr
Member
Well they would, because at a certain scale of training on that hardware time isn't available/practical so money is used instead with specialised hardware that effectively buys time. for training or lowering development time.
exactly, so again yes you could stretch and say a ps5 pro is capable of full machine learning capabilities as anything else, just like you could say it can crack RSA, it would only take it 300 trillion years. what a beast!