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[jroc74]

What had this got to do with what I said? I didn't mention Azure or Cloud gaming at all. It has nothing to do with this topic.

It's no big deal, it's just a close comparison, that's all.

 

[Gaiff]

Ok

Yes so this was in late 2019, over a year before the consoles hit the scene so it’s incorrect to state that DLSS didn’t use ML. It’s in the name lol.

 

[CLW]

At this point the only people left on Xbox island is Colt Eastwood and….?

Even Phil left the island going third party

 

[kensama]

Yes so this was in late 2019, over a year before the consoles hit the scene so it’s incorrect to state that DLSS didn’t use ML. It’s in the name lol.

For me deep learning is difefrent de machine learning but maybe i'm wrong

 

[Fafalada]

For me deep learning is difefrent de machine learning but maybe i'm wrong

ML describes the overall domain - DL is one of the specific branches of it.

Huh, yes, DLSS used ML out of the gate with its crappy 1.0 version that was trained on a per-game basis using 16K image samples to train their AI.

Similar ideas of that original approach are in that texture upscaler GodOfWar Ragnarok used ;P There's still practical use to spatial upscaling where temporal data simply doesn't exist - but it's also fair to say results are - debatable.

 

[Gaiff]

For me deep learning is difefrent de machine learning but maybe i'm wrong

You’re not wrong that they’re different. Deep Learning is a subset of Neural Network which in turn is a subset of Machine Learning.

tl;dr Deep Learning is Machine Learning but Machine Learning isn’t necessarily Deep Learning.

 

[Gaiff]

ML describes the overall domain - DL is one of the specific branches of it.


Similar ideas of that original approach are in that texture upscaler GodOfWar Ragnarok used ;P There's still practical use to spatial upscaling where temporal data simply doesn't exist - but it's also fair to say results are - debatable.

Yeah, I remember this one. I suppose this is a much better approach for textures since they don't move and thus do not require the need for motion vectors. DLSS 1.0 was kind of garbo.

Any other game uses that for their textures like in Ragnarok? Also, I believe it's only the PS5 version, correct?

 

[kensama]

You’re not wrong that they’re different. Deep Learning is a subset of Neural Network which in turn is a subset of Machine Learning.

tl;dr Deep Learning is Machine Learning but Machine Learning isn’t necessarily Deep Learning.

ML describes the overall domain - DL is one of the specific branches of it.


Similar ideas of that original approach are in that texture upscaler GodOfWar Ragnarok used ;P There's still practical use to spatial upscaling where temporal data simply doesn't exist - but it's also fair to say results are - debatable.

Thanks to you two for info

 

[Interfectum]

A classic.

 

[adamsapple]

How can Xbox be objectively better when the best selling Xbox (Series S) this generation lacks a disc drive for BC?

Ignoring the fact that even Series S has better older-gen BC than PS5, what a silly thing to say. Series X is also a part of the current Xbox gen.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Yeah, I remember this one. I suppose this is a much better approach for textures since they don't move and thus do not require the need for motion vectors. DLSS 1.0 was kind of garbo.

Any other game uses that for their textures like in Ragnarok? Also, I believe it's only the PS5 version, correct?

Textures don't move? Or do you mean the OG sample of the texture is fixed? Because if you are talking about them when they are on models, they do all sorts of moving lol.

On another note, I am sure I hjave said this somewhere before, but I have a serious love and hate relationship with AMD. I love that they are at least the only ones making a proper APU (unless intel decides to throw their hat in the ring), but I hate how tech/innovation-adverse they generally seem to be. And I say seem because they do some interesting things, but its baffling how they also at the same time, bottle the most obvious things. Eg. Both RT units and ML units were a thing in 2018 when the 20xx series GPUs released. Thats a good solid almost 2 years before the launch of the PS5/XS consoles.

And till this day, AMd RT is still an afterthought and they still do not have a single GPU on the market with proper ML. Its one of those they have got to be dumb type things, the math is just simple, the amount of silicon you need to get native 4K at admirable framerates, and also support all the new graphic technologies, would result in a chip significantly bigger than what you would be able to do if you had ML based hardware.

I swear I almost wish Intel can make a proper decent GPU and Sony jumps ship and the PS6 is using an Intel APU. Intel isn't a paragon for innovation either, but at least they got ML and RT right off the jump.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Alex: “PC beat them both, though”.

But

 

[Del_X]

Sony has been beating MS in everything so this isn't really surprising. There isn't a single area in gaming right now where you can objectively say MS is ahead of Sony.

PC game sales :^)

 

[avin]

They do seem depressed, but it's perhaps understandable. If you make your living off the console wars, it has to suck when there's a winner and the war is over.

avin

 

[Gaiff]

Textures don't move? Or do you mean the OG sample of the texture is fixed? Because if you are talking about them when they are on models, they do all sorts of moving lol.

Yeah, this. Also, I don't think "moving" is the correct term. What I meant was more like they're not animated. I think that'd be more fitting?

 

[JackMcGunns]

I thought we "machine" learned that it's not about who gets there first, but who does it better.

 

[MisterXDTV]

They do seem depressed, but it's perhaps understandable. If you make your living off the console wars, it has to suck when there's a winner and the war is over.

avin

Again that's not really a problem for them....

They will keep comparing PS5 Pro to PCs that cost 3x the price of the console

Problem solved

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Yeah, this. Also, I don't think "moving" is the correct term. What I meant was more like they're not animated. I think that'd be more fitting?

Yeah more fitting, but what you are really looking for is that they are based on a fixed/unchanging and known sample.

Funny enough, the fact they can do that with textures means they should be able to do Frame Gen with PSSR. Frame gen basically is working with two completely rendered images anyway.

 

[Interfectum]

They do seem depressed, but it's perhaps understandable. If you make your living off the console wars, it has to suck when there's a winner and the war is over.

avin

no doubt. I wonder how much traffic they can get back with PS5 Pro vs Switch 2 next year.

 

[MisterXDTV]

no doubt. I wonder how much traffic they can get back with PS5 Pro vs Switch 2 next year.

They will never compare PS5 Pro with Switch 2

Those are uncomparable products

 

[Gaiff]

They will never compare PS5 Pro with Switch 2

Those are uncomparable products

Depends how much overlap there will be with AAA games. If Switch 2 gets most of them, they will for sure.

 

[midnightAI]

ML temporal upscalers and DVD upscaling done by your Bravia TV are two completely seperate things though. No Bravia TV had dedicated silicon that was utilizing ML in realtime, heck TAA didn't even exist until 10 years ago. I'm sure there is some overlap in research and skillset but let's not pretend that Sony were pioneers in this field for gaming. Even Nvidia completely screwed the pooch with the initial push into ML based upscaling.

Are you sure about that?

Sony has been developing video technology using machine learning since the 1990s. In the 2000s, Sony developed a new proprietary learning-based super-resolution technology for 4K output in projectors and BRAVIA.

 

[Interfectum]

They will never compare PS5 Pro with Switch 2

Those are uncomparable products

They will for Youtube clicks.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

A classic.

It's a variation of this unforgettable moment of comedy:

Honestly even Digital Foundry was making snarky comments about PS5's specs when they were announced and compared them with Xbox Series consoles. Now we see most games running better or equal on PS5. The talk about Tflops was iconic. No one mentioned that as soon as these consoles were released.

Gotta give it to MS though...they really were trying to market these consoles to the hardcore gamers. I remember before those consoles were released how Series S was going to be a huge hit for new users, Series X was much better than PS5 and Gamepass the future of gaming. Phil Spencer was the man and Jim Ryan an asshole.

4 years later MS is releasing their games on PS5, their Bethesda acquisition has yet to make any noise in the industry with Starfield nowhere to be seen, Halo flopped, Gears of War is gone, Forza Motorstorm flopped, etc...

The public doesn't give a shit if games are cross-gen or not. Sony has been releasing games left and right and when they are not, they are releasing exclusives like FFVII Rebirth, Stellar Blade, Rise of the Ronin, etc. Helldivers 2 is still at #1 on Steam WW best sellers, almost 2 months after release. I don't think it ever left that position. No one was talking about that game before release. And we still have stuff like Silent Hill 2 remake to go this year (that we know of)

At the end of the day, games sell consoles. Not hardware. (tell that to Nintendo and their Switch).

If all of this wasn't enough, Sony surpassed MS in cloud gaming, which was something MS was doing better for a while (even though Sony started it with PS Now back in 2013).

 

[Gaiff]

Forza Motorstorm

 

[Zathalus]

Are you sure about that?

Yes. Using early AI to develop better algorithms for TV image processing and video upscaling is quite different then running a ML model in real time to remove artifacts and enhance detail in a Temporal scaler. Sony only released TVs with real time ML processing in 2021, the feature is called Reality Creation.

 

[Mobilemofo]

But my dad does repeatedly beat your dad.

I'm presuming your hiding in a cupboard somewhere when this happens. Release the grainy phone vid or it never happens.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I'm presuming your hiding in a cupboard somewhere when this happens. Release the grainy phone vid or it never happens.

I'm the dad beating the other dad in your version.

 

[Gaiff]

I'm the dad beating the other dad in your version.

 

[THE DUCK]

How would we even know what MS has worked up in R&D the past couple of years?
(But it's not likely earth shattering)
Not sure anyone is a big the winner in this considering how little has been done by Sony and ms overall vs say nvidia.

That said I was pretty disappointed ms didn't come up with a magic scaler for the series S, thought it might be thier secret plan.

 

[mayham2199]

Sony has been beating MS in everything so this isn't really surprising. There isn't a single area in gaming right now where you can objectively say MS is ahead of Sony.

I'm a PS gamer but this is just nonsense. You aren't paying attention to what MS has been offering if that's what you think.

 

[Zones]

Sony has been beating MS in everything so this isn't really surprising. There isn't a single area in gaming right now where you can objectively say MS is ahead of Sony.

Actually, there is one area...

 

[sendit]

Ignoring the fact that even Series S has better older-gen BC than PS5, what a silly thing to say. Series X is also a part of the current Xbox gen.

If you say so.

"Xbox Series S/X backward compatibility program officially supports over 1,000 games from the Xbox, Xbox 360, and Xbox One libraries. Backward compatibility on the Xbox Series S/X is limited to officially supported games"

"Sony's PlayStation 5 supports backward compatibility with the majority of the PlayStation 4's library, which itself consists of over 4,000 games."

 

[adamsapple]

If you say so.

2/10 for attempt at deflecting the actual point. Cheers.

 

[sendit]

2/10 for attempt at deflecting the actual point. Cheers.

10/10 for deflecting the real point.

 

[adamsapple]

10/10 for deflecting the real point.

Nah, 2/10 is apt.

First trying to shoehorn lack of a disc drive and now bringing in a console generation that's still active as 'bc'.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Are you sure about that?

Yh./ AI upscaling or even refining when it comes to video on TV is very very very different. At best it can be likened to something like frame-generation which is a much easier proposition being that you are working with completed frames. In the TV world, that was called interpolation. Or by its hellscape name, the soap opera effect.

ML reconstruction involves taking a rendered, jittered frame, and basically filling in the gaps to get what that frame would look like if it was rendered at a higher rez. Litearlly having to add detail into an image that was not there when rendered.

 

[sendit]

Nah, 2/10 is apt.

First trying to shoehorn lack of a disc drive and now bringing in a console generation that's still active as 'bc'.

You're gate keeping BC on the PS5 because the PS4 is still active? I see where your head is at. lol

10/10 for moving the goal post:
- Series S having no disc drive effectively limits BC options to an individuals digital library, fact.
- Series S is the majority of Series sales, fact.
- Series console BC is limited to ~1000 games across 3 generations, fact.

 

[midnightAI]

Yh./ AI upscaling or even refining when it comes to video on TV is very very very different. At best it can be likened to something like frame-generation which is a much easier proposition being that you are working with completed frames. In the TV world, that was called interpolation. Or by its hellscape name, the soap opera effect.

ML reconstruction involves taking a rendered, jittered frame, and basically filling in the gaps to get what that frame would look like if it was rendered at a higher rez. Litearlly having to add detail into an image that was not there when rendered.

Interpolation is a way of increasing the frame rate (aka motion smoothing), this is nothing to do with that, let me post the full quote:

The super-resolution technology that restores lost information​

Sony has been developing video technology using machine learning since the 1990s. In the 2000s, Sony developed a new proprietary learning-based super-resolution technology for 4K output in projectors and BRAVIA. We have been expanding the variations of its application. Sony is still among the world’s leaders in image enhancing due to multiple patented core and associated technologies as well as a continuous evolution of the underlying techniques, which include image analysis and the mechanisms used to set up and prepare the training data in addition to making image quality adjustments.

Low quality 2K images are replaced by high quality 4K images in real time through the use of a conversion database created beforehand with machine learning.

We are currently utilizing deep learning, a cutting edge machine learning technology, to improve restoration efficiency.

Super Resolution Technology

 

[Fafalada]

Any other game uses that for their textures like in Ragnarok? Also, I believe it's only the PS5 version, correct?

Using it in realtime, and on compressed textures - afaik Ragnarok was the first.
There's things like GTA remasters upscaling their legacy textures with AI but that was just using off-the shelf models, and not runtime.

And till this day, AMd RT is still an afterthought and they still do not have a single GPU on the market with proper ML.

Well - the flipside is their APUs have ML and RT - resulting in decent RT on a handheld since about 18months ago.
They may be risk averse, but without AMD - we'd still be stuck in no-man's land there.

The whole RT acceleration made me remember something - about 17 years ago, IBM demoed RT on Cell array that ran at about 3.5TFlops. That was purely software RT, no fixed function of any kind, running 60hz@1080p at fidelity/complexity comparable to what Series S can muster. Given the inefficiencies of such a setup - makes you wonder what could have been if someone purpose-built a pure RT accelerator at 10TFlops+, instead of all this hybrid stuff everyone (including NVidia) has been doing to date.
Sure it wouldn't run rasterization worth shit compared to a modern GPU - but that's kind of what legacy consoles (back before they became PCs in a box) used to do so much better - do one thing really well without trying to be 'all things' - that was left for PC space.

 

[Skifi28]

- Series console BC is limited to ~1000 games across 3 generations, fact.

I don't think that's right. I'm pretty sure Xbox series play every single Xbox one game, so you'd have the same ~4k BC games the ps5 has from the ps4 generation, plus the few hundred Xbox and 360 games.

 

[adamsapple]

You're gate keeping BC on the PS5 because the PS4 is still active? I see where your head is at. lol

10/10 for moving the goal post:
- Series S having no disc drive effectively limits BC options to an individuals digital library, fact.
- Series S is the majority of Series sales, fact.
- Series console BC is limited to ~1000 games across 3 generations, fact.

No one's gatekeeping BC, we all know what is being talked about when BC is invoked here lol, your clever antics don't change that.

- Why are we limiting Xbox BC to just Series S?
- Why does that matter when Series X is also a current-gen Xbox?
- If you're going to count all PS4 games as BC for PS5, it includes all Xbox One games, which is well 'over 1000' the PR blurb you're quoting, plus hundreds of games from the 360 and even the original Xbox.

I don't think that's right. I'm pretty sure Xbox series play every single Xbox one game, so you'd have the same ~4k BC games the ps5 has from the ps4 generation, plus the few hundred Xbox and 360 games.

He knows. He's being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Mr Moose]

Nah, 2/10 is apt.

First trying to shoehorn lack of a disc drive and now bringing in a console generation that's still active as 'bc'.

What kind of nonsense is this?

 

[adamsapple]

What kind of nonsense is this?

You know what people mean when they're comparing the BC programs for either console, Moose. Counting PS4/XBO games is obfuscating the point since both those consoles libraries are pretty much 100% unanimously compatible with the newer consoles.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

but who does it better

 

[twilo99]

They don't.

But on other areas:

I’m not sure what Microsoft are doing, but from what I’ve heard here in SV and what I’ve read in the past 6 months or so Tesla is way ahead of the curve on using neural networks for self driving..

James Douma is an absolute gem and everyone who wants to know more on the subject should watch this.. he also talks about Nvidia a lot, which ultimately affects gaming.

 

[Crayon]

Same way Sony beats them in anything. They quietly do the work while MS talks a big game.

 

[Fafalada]

First trying to shoehorn lack of a disc drive and now bringing in a console generation that's still active as 'bc'.

Eeh - not to say I completely disagree with you (ie. I agree that MS approach to BC has been - superior to what others have done from XB1 onwards, and that still holds right now).
But your argument above doesn't hold water either.

BC people cared about the most, has always been the gen-prior.
When PS2 launched - people cared about compatibility with the PS1, not the SNES.
For PS3, it was the PS2. Sure PS1 was included - but when PS2 layer was removed, noone cared the entire PS1 library was still available.
Every PS3 model from that point onwards is considered 'Not-BC'. Irony being - that 360 with is half-assed support for a handful of XB titles, still got called 'BC' - because - it played 'some' prior gen titles from discs.

For PS4/XB1 - people wanted PS3/360. Sure they both played 50 or so PS2/XB titles, but it was the other consoles were demanded the most (and when XB added them - celebrated the most). Yes some people complained about PS1 too - but that had more to do with PS4 also killing BC with digital purchases(Which I do think a shitty move on Sony's part), not the disc compatibility that PS3 had.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Because Sony is better in ever conceivable way?

 

[SHA]

Why did I read that in my head in a french accent like a perfume advert?

Donna Burke is an Australian singer, no idea.