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[ciridesu]

Honestly, how did they manage to launch this at £300

I spelt it incorrectly the first time on purpose to mock him telling other people to become adults while botching both science and spelling.

pls stahp

analyse your spelling argument again, realise your mistakes, and apologise

 

[PdotMichael]

..but not close to as cheap a compromise or a nightmare as using virtual sticks and buttons to control a game on a tablet.

What the hell?

Why does using multitouch mean the WiiU gamepad would lose all buttons and sticks?

 

[wsippel]

Apart from the buttons and sticks, which are likely extremely cheap for Nintendo to manufacture/acquire from a manufacturer (they're on various controllers for various, much smaller costs), and the decoder chip, what other components does it contain? Serious question, as I'm just going off what I've read.

Gamepad
Screen (resistive)
Plastic casing
Buttons
Analog sticks
WiFi chip
Video decoder chip
Camera

Cheap tablet
Screen (multitouch)
Plastic casing
CPU & quad-core mobile GPU
1GB RAM
8GB flash memory
WiFi chip
Camera

I'm honestly struggling to see what can be so expensive about the gamepad, unless that decoder chip is ridiculously costly to produce - I can't imagine it being expensive enough to push the cost up so much.

How much do you think an analog joystick costs for example? And how expensive is a low end tablet SoC? From what I've seen, a cheap tablet SoC with CPU, GPU and WLAN is well below $5 (SoCs are extremely high volume components). Also, the fact remains that the GamePad consists of dozens of individual components, whereas a cheap tablet consists of around ten (not counting screws) - which means assembling a GamePad requires more steps and is therefore more expensive.

 

[Margalis]

I did not deny science in my post ("accurate enough" implies that they are factually less accurate than resistive and need to be qualified in such a way) nor did I talk about any model of tablet. Please try to remain coherent.

Pie and Beans did, which is who I was talking to, until you accused me of not understanding a concept that I was not taking issue with in the first place because the person I was arguing with had not advanced it.

Pie and Beans made a claim that was false. I said it was false.

Does that require a diagram?

I'm not sure why whether or not capacitive screens are more accurate than resistive ones requires 4 pages to hash out. It's hard to have a serious debate about which technology is more suitable for a game console when people refuse to agree on the basics of what the technology even does in the first place.

 

[frankie_baby]

Yes, writing and drawing are obviously better features on a game machine. Stuff like zooming wouldn't be useful at all for games like adventures.

not like there aren't a myriad of other options for zooming with the wii u hardware, cant even remember the last time i actually used pinch to zoom on my phone (just use double tap usually)

 

[Sendou]

What the hell?

Why does using multitouch mean the WiiU gamepad would lose all buttons and sticks?

Key word is compromise. Life is full of those. Wii U GamePad is one. Adding a multitouch wouldn't necessarily be all that better considering that it would also increase the costs. So there's that.

 

[Taker666]

Yes, writing and drawing are obviously better features on a game machine. Stuff like zooming wouldn't be useful at all for games like adventures.

Sticks can be moved forward and back..allowing for things to be zoomed in and out. I know it's a hard concept to grasp.

 

[BGBW]

The example rests your honour. Anything that requires you to hold one part of the screen while touching another cannot be recreated on WiiU. Thats game design possibility, not the difference between capacitive and resistive.

Yeah, but that game could easily be brought to the Wii U seeing as Ouendan started life on the DS. PdotMichael's example was much better.


Am I the only one who double tabs to zoom? I hate pinch to zoom. My MacBook is full of custom multitouch gestures but I sure as hell don't use that one.

 

[javac]

Well its not like anyones busy with games. I doodle black and white sketches on notepads when I'm bored too!

At least the Wii U has an application that allows you to draw! I've resorted to applying sticky notes all over my Vita and drawing on the layer of dust that's all over it!

Spoiler

No but seriously does the Vita have a drawing app?

 

[frankie_baby]

Yeah, but that game could easily be brought to the Wii U seeing as Ouendan started life on the DS. PdotMichael's example was much better.


Am I the only one who double tabs to zoom? I hate pinch to zoom. My MacBook is full of custom multitouch gestures but I sure as hell don't use that one.

yeah i double tap, far more convenient than pinching

 

[shinra-bansho]

Why do people always end up arguing over screen technology whenever there's a thread about how cheap the Wii U GamePad is in terms of build?

Maybe also learn to spell "recognize"

I spelt it incorrectly the first time on purpose to mock him telling other people to become adults while botching both science and spelling.

Not sure if serious.

 

[PaulLFC]

NFC reader, mic, accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer.

Tablet has all of those bar NFC and maybe a magnetometer. Still not seeing how they justify such an increase in cost.

How much do you think an analog joystick costs for example? And how expensive is a low end tablet SoC? From what I've seen, a cheap tablet SoC with CPU, GPU and WLAN is well below $5 (SoCs are extremely high volume components). Also, the fact remains that the GamePad consists of dozens of individual components, whereas a cheap tablet consists of around ten (not counting screws) - which means assembling a GamePad requires more steps and is therefore more expensive.

I asked you what those components were, then maybe this extra cost becomes justified. What are these extra components? As for analog sticks, I have no idea of the actual cost, but considering third party controllers that can be picked up for around 15 quid ($20) come with two of them, plus all the buttons, triggers, rumble etc, I'm going with "not much".

 

[Risette]

Pie and Beans did, which is who I was talking to, until you accused me of not understanding a concept that I was not taking issue with in the first place because the person I was arguing with had not advanced it.

Pie and Beans made a claim that was false. I said it was false.

Does that require a diagram?

I tried to distill what Pie and Beans really wanted to say (hence the quotations), and even if it wasn't what he wanted to say then it could be used as a point that couldn't be argued against regardless.

You're not good at conversations, are you?

I'm not sure why whether or not capacitive screens are more accurate than resistive ones requires 4 pages to hash out. It's hard to have a serious debate about which technology is more suitable for a game console when people refuse to agree on the basics of what the technology even does in the first place.

It's more accurate but it doesn't matter. Tradeoffs have to happen in order to do what's best. Nintendo did not do what was best.

 

[-MB-]

This doesn't sound right. If the gamepad had WiFi, it would have a much better range. I thought I read that the gamepad uses bluetooth to connect to the console, just like the remotes.

It's very likely Nintendo limited the range themselves in the firmware/software on purpose.

 

[Monty Mole]

The GamePad itself isn't anywhere near as complex as even the most basic Android tablet

might be correct on some technical level, but in terms of possibilities it seems to me the Gamepad can do everything tablets can do and more, because of the 2nd screen.

Well, it can't. Because firstly you have to be within a 5-6 meter radius of the Wii U (which negates almost the entire point of tablets), it doesn't have multi-touch and it doesn't have a high-resolution screen.

It seems like a cheap toy in comparison to my iPad 4. That said, whilst at home, I'd rather play games on the Wii U any day of the week. For everything else, iPad shits all over it. But then it should. And the comparison is, actually, ridiculous.

 

[frankie_baby]

Tablet has all of those bar NFC and maybe a magnetometer. Still not seeing how they justify such an increase in cost.

do these ulta cheap tablets have them though?

 

[ThaneKrios]

lol.

I wasn't aware the target audience for the Wii U was painters.

 

[Joni]

Sticks can be moved forward and back..allowing for things to be zoomed in and out. I know it's a hard concept to grasp.

Then why have the touchscreen at all? Everything the Wii U gamepad does, can be done without it.

 

[Village]

Does this mean it's some sort of giant DS?

Someone better pick up that phone.

 

[m.i.s.]

Honestly, how did they manage to launch this at £300

Same reason "they" launched the 3DS at an astronomical £230 - there's no shortage of fans willing to bend over.

I should clarify "they" are retailers but when the wholesale cost of the 3DS was initially £173, you can't really blame retailers for the high price can you?

 

[Sendou]

ie There's no shortage of fans willing to bend over.

But there seems to be looking at the sales :/

 

[Margalis]

I tried to distill what Pie and Beans really wanted to say (hence the quotations), and even if it wasn't what he wanted to say then it could be used as a point that couldn't be argued against regardless.

Why are you speaking for Pie and Beans when he was in the process of arguing with me and what you claim he "really wanted to say" is not what he actually said?

I took issue with what he said, because what he said was silly and false. I don't care about what you claim he really wanted to say, I care about what he actually said.

You're not good at conversations, are you?

Sick burn.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I tried to distill what Pie and Beans really wanted to say (hence the quotations), and even if it wasn't what he wanted to say then it could be used as a point that couldn't be argued against regardless.

You're not good at conversations, are you?


It's more accurate but it doesn't matter. Tradeoffs have to happen in order to do what's best.

Nope, you were bang on. My argument has always been that the difference is so negligible at a consumer's point that no amount of "science" is going to offset the loss of multi-touch in favour of whatever minute differences in accuracy resistive can provide. Multi-touch has far more game design appliances than resistive technology, simply due to its intuitive "I have more fingers!" nature.

But clearly Margalis' honour has been besmirched and so to grammar arms it was. Even if it did result in him looking the plonker instead.

Why are you speaking for Pie and Beans when he was in the process of arguing with me and what you claim he "really wanted to say" is not what he actually said?

I took issue with what he said, because what he said was silly and false. I don't care about what you claim he really wanted to say, I care about what he actually said.




Sick burn.

You're going to have to point out the post where I said capacitive was scientifically better than resistive in this here topic, son. Because otherwise your meltdown is looking plenty mental.

And no "Have you ever used a say a Nexus 7 or iPad Mini, or anything in the same space as the WiiU's 6.2 inches? They may well blow your mind if you havent and consider the WiiU unbeatably accurate." isn't it.

 

[frankie_baby]

Then why have the touchscreen at all? Everything the Wii U gamepad does, can be done without it.

your logic is bizare do you live in a world where the only point of a touch screen is pinch to zoom? without a touchscreen you couldn't tap things, drag things, draw things, all sorts

 

[Morokh]

The GamePad itself isn't anywhere near as complex as even the most basic Android tablet - essentially it's a standard game controller, with a touch-screen and a WiFi card, paired up with a decoder chip for the incoming video stream.

was it ever supposed to be something else ? ....

 

[KingSnake]

This whole debate regarding multitouch vs. accurate touch is quite funny.

There is no Wii U game that makes you say "damn, WHY I don't have a gamepad with multitouch?". At list the ones I played.

I think it's funny that on the same forum people are arguing that games on the touch devices are not for real gamers and that Wii U should have a similar touch screen to get all the good games that use multitouch.

Maybe in the future Nintendo will create a "premium" gamepad, but let's be serious, this is not a real issue for the console. I rather think that a range extension would be more important than multitouch (although I have no issue in that matter with mine).

 

[m.i.s.]

But there seems to be looking at the sales :/

Now consumers have cottoned on yes. After the 3DS price drop and ambassador debacle.

I'm almost willing to bet that Iwata has included the cost of R & D in the retail price of the Wii U. That is the only way this thing could conceivably be sold at a "loss".

 

[javac]

Is multi touch even inherent to capacitive touch screens?

 

[Frodo]

Then why have the touchscreen at all? Everything the Wii U gamepad does, can be done without it.

I can't wait to play a game Off-TV on my Dualshock4. Imagine all the asymmetric gameplay possibilities!

 

[gingerbeardman]

Apart from the buttons and sticks, which are likely extremely cheap for Nintendo to manufacture/acquire from a manufacturer (they're on various controllers for various, much smaller costs), and the decoder chip, what other components does it contain? Serious question, as I'm just going off what I've read.

Gamepad
Screen (resistive)
Plastic casing
Buttons
Analog sticks
WiFi chip
Video decoder chip
Camera

Firmware EPROM?
Infra red transceiver

Possibly also the licence fee for the use of the remote control codes database.

 

[frankie_baby]

Same reason "they" launched the 3DS at an astronomical £230. ie There's no shortage of fans willing to bend over.

I should clarify "they" are retailers but when the wholesale cost of the 3DS was initially £197, you can't really blame retailers for the high price can you?

the wholesale cost was 173 quid, the only reason we saw 230 in some stores was shops trying to profiteer

 

[Risette]

Why are you speaking for Pie and Beans when he was in the process of arguing with me and what you claim he "really wanted to say" is not what he actually said?

I took issue with what he said, because what he said was silly and false. I don't care about what you claim he really wanted to say, I care about what he actually said.

Well, with his most recent post, that seems to be what he wanted to say. So...

Sick burn.

Agreed.

 

[WrenchNinja]

(Maybe also learn to spell "recognize")

Uh he did spell it correctly.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I still don't think he's realised he erred when veering into spelling wars.

Anyway, there are over a billion "gaming devices" out there that seem to cope fine with the terrible accuracy of capacitive screens, while also performing a myriad of other functions perfectly well as well.

I'm quite certain I've Drawn Something, and Ninja'd Fruit, and Angried Birds, with a capacitive touchscreen perfectly fine.

Same reason "they" launched the 3DS at an astronomical £230. ie There's no shortage of fans willing to bend over.

I should clarify "they" are retailers but when the wholesale cost of the 3DS was initially £197, you can't really blame retailers for the high price can you?

The retailer trade prices for the Wii U were reported by MCV:

MCV understands the trade price for the Basic Pack is £205, the Premium Pack has a trade cost of £246 and the ZombiU version (which includes the Premium Pack, a Pro Controller and a copy of Ubisoft's horror shooter ZombiU) has a cost price of £270.

 

[PdotMichael]

your logic is bizare do you live in a world where the only point of a touch screen is pinch to zoom? without a touchscreen you couldn't tap things, drag things, draw things, all sorts

give me examples. And not just the theoretical nonsense.

Which gameplay concepts are not possible on a multitouch screen.

 

[PaulLFC]

do these ulta cheap tablets have them though?

According to this, yes.

 

[SmokyDave]

I can't wait to play a game Off-TV on my Dualshock4. Imagine all the asymmetric gameplay possibilities!

Good point. With the Wii-U 'just' using custom WiFi protocols for the streaming, I'm feeling much more optimistic about playing PS4 games on my Vita. I'd pretty much written it off based on the PS3 implementation.

 

[Joni]

your logic is bizare do you live in a world where the only point of a touch screen is pinch to zoom? without a touchscreen you couldn't tap things, drag things, draw things, all sorts

But all these things can be done using the analog sticks, which is the point according to Taker666. You can't use the touchscreen to do stuff that you can with the sticks.

I can't wait to play a game Off-TV on my Dualshock4. Imagine all the asymmetric gameplay possibilities!

I'd like to see them.

 

[frankie_baby]

give me examples. And not just the theoretical nonsense.

Which gameplay concepts are not possible on a multitouch screen.

that isn't what i was arguing

 

[Somnid]

This topic is full of stupid revival arguments.

The most integrated software on the console, Miiverse isn't going to work very well at all with current multitouch tech. Just deal with it and please in the future give thought to the fact that certain technologies accomplish things even if you only understand them as "touch screen."

Wii U is $350 versus a $250 PS3 (or +$50 if you remove the hard drive which costs Sony almost nothing). The $100 probably comes from initial R&D, not that the marginal cost of making the Gamepad is exactly $100. Other consoles have been in production for quite some time and the component cost has dropped quite a bit and initial costs have long been made up. It's not like Wii U uses those same components either, my Wii U is about half as big as a PS3 "super slim." By comparison's sake it's really never been expensive.

 

[Margalis]

Nope, you were bang on. My argument has always been that the difference is so negligible at a consumer's point that no amount of "science" is going to offset the loss of multi-touch in favour of whatever minute differences in accuracy resistive can provide.

That is plainly false. I don't really understand the point in fibbing about what you said when anyone can just click back a page or two.

Let me quote what you said before you edit it out:

[in response to someone saying they could sense an accuracy difference]
Well theres no accounting for company defence force delusions built into these devices. Unless you were playing around with microscopes, advanced time capture cameras, and pressure point needles, you couldn't tell the difference. Only your mental bias is giving you one result over another, and its probably time to recognise that as an adult.

This is what I took issue with - because it's not true. Multiple people in the thread told you they could tell the difference and you rudely dismissed them as being part of a "defense force", not being adults and having mental bias.

When in fact the difference in accuracy is easily observable and is well-known. You dismissed people as being part of a "defense force" for having the gall to say something obviously true, because that obviously true thing isn't sufficiently negative about the Wii U for your tastes.

This is not hard. I took issue with what you wrote. I quoted what you wrote. What you wrote was clearly wrong. I don't care what you now claim your argument is, or what someone else (lol) claims you meant - we can all read what you actually wrote and see that it is simply not correct.

 

[PdotMichael]

that isn't what i was arguing

So why off-topic stuff?

Either we're talking about the Wii U or not.

 

[Frodo]

This topic is full of stupid revival arguments.

The most integrated software on the console, Miiverse isn't going to work very well at all with current multitouch tech. Just deal with it and please in the future give thought to the fact that certain technologies accomplish things even if you only understand them as "touch screen."

Wii U is $350 versus a $250 PS3 (or +$50 if you remove the hard drive which costs Sony almost nothing). The $100 probably comes from initial R&D, not that the marginal cost of making the Gamepad is exactly $100. Other consoles have been in production for quite some time and the component cost has dropped quite a bit and initial costs have long been made up. It's not like Wii U uses those same components either, my Wii U is about half as big as a PS3 "super slim." By comparison's sake it's really never been expensive.

Thank you!

 

[frankie_baby]

But all these things can be done using the analog sticks, which is the point according to Taker666. You can't use the touchscreen to do stuff that you can with the sticks.


I can imagine them; now I'd like to see them in games.

clicking, dragging and drawing with an analogue stick is horrible and clunky, zooming is not, also you could zoom by double tapping or by tapping a zoom button, depends on the software

 

[Risette]

That is plainly false. I don't really understand the point in fibbing about what you said when anyone can just click back a page or two.

Let me quote what you said before you edit it out:



This is what I took issue with - because it's not true. Multiple people in the thread told you they could tell the difference and you rudely dismissed them as being part of a "defense force", not being adults and having mental bias.

When in fact the difference in accuracy is easily observable and is well-known. You dismissed people as being part of a "defense force" for having the gall to say something obviously true, because that obviously true thing isn't sufficiently negative about the Wii U for your tastes.

So now the argument has shifted from "you said it was scientifically equal blabla" from "you said the observable difference isn't there but it's easily observable trust me"? k..........

 

[Pie and Beans]

Well by quoting that passage, youve pointed out I'm aware there is a minute difference in accuracy but the crux of my argument is that to pretty much all people, the difference in accuracy just isn't something that can be spotted from casual testing and use.

So I guess pizzaroll was right, you suck at following conversations because you're playing out different ones you can "win" in your head.

 

[frankie_baby]

So why off-topic stuff?

Either we're talking about the Wii U or not.

off topic what? all i talked about was accuracy, others would be better explaining concepts

 

[Taker666]

Tablet has all of those bar NFC and maybe a magnetometer. Still not seeing how they justify such an increase in cost.

I asked you what those components were, then maybe this extra cost becomes justified. What are these extra components? As for analog sticks, I have no idea of the actual cost, but considering third party controllers that can be picked up for around 15 quid ($20) come with two of them, plus all the buttons, triggers, rumble etc, I'm going with "not much".

It's a games console controller. They always have a hefty amount added.

I won't be surprised if PS4 controllers cost $70...not far off a full budget tablet. Hell the 360 wireless controller still has a $50 rrp/PS3 $55.

I bet even at the $140... the mark up on a wii U gamepad is vastly less percentage wise.

 

[shinra-bansho]

This topic is full of stupid revival arguments.

The most integrated software on the console, Miiverse isn't going to work very well at all with current multitouch tech. Just deal with it and please in the future give thought to the fact that certain technologies accomplish things even if you only understand them as "touch screen."

Wii U is $350 versus a $250 PS3 (or +$50 if you remove the hard drive which costs Sony almost nothing). The $100 probably comes from initial R&D, not that the marginal cost of making the Gamepad is exactly $100. Other consoles have been in production for quite some time and the component cost has dropped quite a bit and initial costs have long been made up. It's not like Wii U uses those same components either, my Wii U is about half as big as a PS3 "super slim." By comparison's sake it's really never been expensive.

HDDs do not cost "almost nothing" in terms of BoM. IIRC, prices are still inflated post-Thailand floods.

And R&D should not be included in calculating margins on a product as far as I'm aware. So I still can't conceive of how exactly Nintendo claims they're selling this product at a loss per unit.

 

[JimboJones]

give me examples. And not just the theoretical nonsense.

Which gameplay concepts are not possible on a multitouch screen.

I'd say fps, racing, fighting are out. I mean you can do those on touch screens....but yeah they are usually awful.