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Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.

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G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Skeeter49 said:
in 2 years Goku went from a power level of 1000, to stronger than Final Form Frieza. Because Zenkai Boost is not a good reason. The Zenkai boost logic is fine, but each one is inconsistent in how strong it makes Goku/ Vegeta/ Gohan. Goku went from 180,000 fighting Ginyu to stronger than however strong Final Form Frieza is, significantly stronger than 2 million.

How?
Click to expand...

2 years?

He went from a PL of like 400 to stronger than Final Form Frieza in just over a year.

The Saiyans arrived about a month earlier than expected (11 months post-raditz). It took bulma krillin and gohan about a month to get to namek, then goku a week to catch up with them.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
Realistically
Goku will probably just have Tien and Roshi fight each other.
If they fight Goku, they win with Mafuba.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
TeamLeftMatch said:
In that episode Goku would use the power of SSB Kaioken just to match the level he's on.
Then for Roshi Beerus would need to step in just to fight Roshi
Click to expand...

Not only Kaioken but Kaioken x 20 just to match
Roshi's Kamehameha. Then Tenshinhan will appear and beat Goku with one hit.
 
T

The Silver

Member
With 17 all they needed was a line that his infinite stamina let's him do more intense training than any normal being could. Like Goku and Vegeta lifting those weights and running on Beerus's planet? 17 could do that shit nonstop and get stronger at a much faster rate.

Of course I can see the argument that 17 should've hit a wall and needed something more effective than whatever was on an island. Frieza had access to whatever his empire had, a partner, and harsh planet environments, Vegeta and Goku train in higher gravity and Whis has special stuff like super heavy weights. Eventually nonstop mountain bench pressing is probably going to stop giving you gains over 10 years.

The real issue is that it all goes back to the massive gap in power that SSG created, could 17 really have reached that level of power with nothing special on hand? Well the the answer to that is different for everyone, some can accept it, some can't, I don't got a problem with anyone who feels either way, I'm just going with the flow now, like 17.

Excuse me while I go save this minotaur.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
The Silver said:
With 17 all they needed was a line that his infinite stamina let's him do more intense training than any normal being could. Like Goku and Vegeta lifting those weights and running on Beerus's planet? 17 could do that shit nonstop and get stronger at a much faster rate.

Of course I can see the argument that 17 should've hit a wall and needed something more effective than whatever was on an island. Frieza had access to whatever his empire had, a partner, and harsh planet environments, Vegeta and Goku train in higher gravity and Whis has special stuff like super heavy weights. Eventually nonstop mountain bench pressing is probably going to stop giving you gains over 10 years.

The real issue is that it all goes back to the massive gap in power that SSG created, could 17 really have reached that level of power with nothing special on hand? Well the the answer to that is different for everyone, some can accept it, some can't, I don't got a problem with anyone who feels either way, I'm just going with the flow now, like 17.

Excuse me while I go save this minotaur.
Click to expand...

And the answer is no. Not a single example of that exists in the manga or anime.

Slaythe said:
The power levels have been shit for the longest time, I don't get why you're so bothered by this whole thing.
Click to expand...

Not true.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
No all 17 needed was to mention his barrier can absorb power. This way he absorbs Blue and we're good. :p

But yeah Undead Fantasy, move on or quit the show, IDK ?

Why can't you accept that we are in the exact same situation we were in back when the saiyan saga started.

You have everybody training up and getting far stronger than they were, and breaking the limits set by "dragon ball", because they've witnessed greater power than their own.

Outside of Goku (who remains the strongest even now), they all trained on earth.

It's not much different. The scaling has changed since this comes after even bigger threats, but in the concept it's still pretty much the same.

They just decided to completely ignore the unwritten rule that only Saiyans could be relevant in terms of power.

And I have nothing against that. For the first time in decades, you have 17, Piccolo, Krilin, etc... that will actually be able to matter.

The power levels have been shit for the longest time, I don't get why you're so bothered by this whole thing.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
Undead Fantasy said:
And the answer is no. Not a single example of that exists in the manga or anime.
Click to expand...

Super Saiyan 3 though ? Goku trained off screen and got it, trivialized any threat that came before it. Including majin Vegeta.

Frieza and Trunks are also the same as 17 considering it took Trunks 4 seconds(alone), Frieza 4 months(partner), and 17 10 years(alone).
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
Can we just move on already?


These shots are awesome.
IFlX3cC.png

RGWVpwO.png
Click to expand...
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Alienous said:
The way they're handling power differences between characters is becoming fairly poor at this point.

It reminds me of trying to write Superman into a team. It very often results in clumsily making him weaker than he should be, or clumsily making those around him stronger than they ought to be. Power scaling gets weird, nonetheless.

Goku has become that Superman-like character, where the limits of his power are poorly defined. So Super Saiyan Blue is a Earth-shattering transformation in some cases, and 'Super Saiyan +' in others. He's desyncronized with everyone else, except maybe Vegeta.
Click to expand...



Yeah, this is plenty silly.
That'd mean for exemple 17 could hold his own against Beerus for exemple.
SSB was supposed to be that new huge transformation, now it's like nothing because of poor writing. Instead of trying to make weak characters relevant again, they should've created new ones.

It also makes you wonder what's the point of these Whis training if weaker characters, with basic training, can still surprise a guy which has supposedly trained for fighting since like 30 years or so ?



Slaythe said:
Super Saiyan 3 though ? Goku trained off screen and got it, trivialized any threat that came before it. Including majin Vegeta.

Frieza and Trunks are also the same as 17 considering it took Trunks 4 seconds(alone), Frieza 4 months(partner), and 17 10 years(alone).
Click to expand...



Super Saiyan 3 is the result of 7 years of training in the other world, with dead fighters from all the four galaxies, with experienced fighters, magic and whatever that kind of thing can bring up.

17 training is the result of being a park ranger on Earth. :")
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
Slaythe said:
Super Saiyan 3 though ? Goku trained off screen and got it, trivialized any threat that came before it. Including majin Vegeta.

Frieza and Trunks are also the same as 17 considering it took Trunks 4 seconds(alone), Frieza 4 months(partner), and 17 10 years(alone).
Click to expand...

Again, I'm not bothered that it happened off screen. I'm bothered that it doesn't make sense.

I don't see a problem with SSJ3. He didn't even mastered it until years later.
Trunks got a new transformation. That's the only reason he's god level.
Freeza had a partner, all the resources of his empire and most likely planets with harsh environments. Oh and a transformation.

17 had nothing of that. Just a damn island.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
GhostTrick said:
Yeah, this is plenty silly.
That'd mean for exemple 17 could hold his own against Beerus for exemple.
SSB was supposed to be that new huge transformation, now it's like nothing because of poor writing. Instead of trying to make weak characters relevant again, they should've created new ones.

It also makes you wonder what's the point of these Whis training if weaker characters, with basic training, can still surprise a guy which has supposedly trained for fighting since like 30 years or so ?

Super Saiyan 3 is the result of 7 years of training in the other world, with dead fighters from all the four galaxies, with experienced fighters, magic and whatever that kind of thing can bring up.

17 training is the result of being a park ranger on Earth. :")
Click to expand...

You make a great point. Thanks to this episode Whis's training means nothing now.

Goku and Vegeta should have just done mountain training.
 
W

witchedwiz

Member
Still..
Sayians have the perfect powerlevel method...
Bring dende (or a serious amount of senzu), to the chamber of space and time...
Have vegeta and goku stabs each other to death.. Apply dende/senzu.. Repeat..
Even with a minimal 0,5% gain per near death, assuming the whole process takes 1 min, they pass 1 real outside time year in the chamber... Boom....

Instead.. Nope...
 
S

Slaythe

Member
GhostTrick said:
Yeah, this is plenty silly.
That'd mean for exemple 17 could hold his own against Beerus for exemple.
SSB was supposed to be that new huge transformation, now it's like nothing because of poor writing. Instead of trying to make weak characters relevant again, they should've created new ones.

It also makes you wonder what's the point of these Whis training if weaker characters, with basic training, can still surprise a guy which has supposedly trained for fighting since like 30 years or so ?
Click to expand...

No. Beerus lied, Goku had no shot of hurting him, he said flat out that the SSG was extremely disappointing.

Also fuck the idea of making new characters to replace old ones, why would they do that ? They have a cast of characters famous worldwide and they should just scrap them ? Because of one shitty transformation that barely made sense in the first place ?
If wonky power levels are the price to pay I'll accept it. Instead of a Neo Dragon Ball with basically only 3 saiyans from the old cast and then new characters, yikes.

You're wrong about the Whis part, 17 is the only one that reached that level, and he is not a natural being. Frieza was also an exceptional genius. The only one that makes no sense is Trunks, because without ritual and training, he shouldn't have reached that level.
But maybe saiyans are good at "mimicking" each other, like monkeys. It explains the bargain sale most of their transformations got.

Everybody else is not on Blue tier, except maybe Buu (another unusual case). So your point doesn't really stand.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Super Saiyan 3 felt contextualized well. Goku was only able to gain it because he could train in ways that would have killed someone who was alive. It puts this immense, untenable strain on his living body.

Frieza's power-up feels like a retroactive explanation for his dominance - he's a space emperor who uses a floating chair to navigate. He's incredibly 'lazy', and as such it makes sense that he hadn't tapped his full power until he was pushed to.

Trunks was some bullshit.

Android 17... I don't buy it. Not after the training Goku and Vegeta had to do to gain their strength. They both also didn't stop training post-Z, but Android 17 seems to be far beyond where Goku and Vegeta would have been without Whis' training, and the episode doesn't really provide a good explanation for that. Without showing his training regimen it just seems like poor writing.

Really they've just written themselves into a corner with Goku's strength. I feel like they would have been better off taking Super Saiyan Blue away from him and Vegeta for the tournament.
 
G

GuessMyUserName

Member
17's power is bullshit because Super doesn't even bother trying to rationalize anything anymore. Yeah Z had silly power scaling but they at least bothered to make up reasons for why they received a dramatic power boost, and why it was something that they couldn't have achieved previously - which yes can still be something stupid like Gohan sitting on his ass. At lease the Kai ritual was SOMETHING that couldn't do before, and that's basically how I accepted the SSG ritual.

As far as we know 17 just..... protects an island and fights military guys which is exactly on par with the warriors of the Dragon Ball era. "They trained" just isn't a satisfying answer, all warriors train but can never allowed to advance for it - even RoTaS training is portrayed to have limited gains.

Some people can just accept that it's all bullshit and sure you're right, but Super rationale really doesn't even try and it's not at all the same. And when Super has to juggle its frame of reference around Blue being a godly and terrifying power that literally frightens gods from other universes, to being some scrub trainin' form... it's a bit of a mess to watch at times. Really wish they didn't forget SSJ3 exists and that they'd quit trivializing Blue.
 
G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
It's been a while but IIRC 17 and 18 looked much more alike in the manga.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
GuessMyUserName said:
17's power is bullshit because Super doesn't even bother trying to rationalize anything anymore. Yeah Z had silly power scaling but they at least bothered to make up reasons for why they received a dramatic power boost, and why it was something that they couldn't have achieved previously - which yes can still be something stupid like Gohan sitting on his ass. At lease the Kai ritual was SOMETHING that couldn't do before, and that's basically how I accepted the SSG ritual.

As far as we know 17 just..... protects an island and fights military guys which is exactly on par with the warriors of the Dragon Ball era. "They trained" just isn't a satisfying answer, all warriors train but can never allowed to advance for it - even RoTaS training is portrayed to have limited gains.

Some people can just accept that it's all bullshit and sure you're right, but Super rationale really doesn't even try and it's not at all the same. And when Super has to juggle its frame of reference around Blue being a godly and terrifying power that literally frightens gods from other universes, to being some scrub trainin' form... it's a bit of a mess to watch at times. Really wish they didn't forget SSJ3 exists and that they'd quit trivializing Blue.
Click to expand...



Well you've never seen an android like 17 train, so it's impossible for you to determine if he can make gains or not.
98254906f8d4edbae36c439b8d787cee.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Z

Zolo

Member
I suppose I'll take a guess that Toriyama hasn't done designs of #17's family, and that's why they didn't show them.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
GuessMyUserName said:
That wasn't a satisfying excuse for Frieza, so it ain't satisfying for 17!

Should'a kept Hell Fighter 17
Click to expand...

Well this is dumb now.

What pissed people off was that Frieza came back to life, trained for 4 months, came back stronger than god goku within the same arc/movie. The execution was different.

The concept that an enemy that was so strong could train and equal Goku made perfect sense, since every enemy used to be "the strongest" before they got taken out.

It was the case for 17.

And 17 has been out of the show for over a decade, has trained for that long, and started with an even bigger potential than Frieza.


I'm not saying they handled the 17 boost in a great way (I would have loved if he absorbed the kamehameha with his barrier instead) but you can't say this is the same problem as Frieza. That's not quite fair.
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Distresssss said:
Man if they keep up some of this crap in Super it may get rated worse than GT by me.


17 in no way should be even close to SSJ2 levels and I could care less what any 17 fans think. At least GT is consistent.
Click to expand...

This doesn't really make any sense.

Freeza was less than SS level. He surpassed SSJ2, SSJ3 and Super Saiyan God in 4 months because he trained.

17 had 10 years to do the same and Toriyama has said before that 17 and 18 had massive potential.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Black_Sun said:
This doesn't really make any sense.

Freeza was less than SS level. He surpassed SSJ2, SSJ3 and Super Saiyan God in 4 months because he trained.

17 had 10 years to do the same and Toriyama has said before that 17 and 18 had massive potential.
Click to expand...

Frieza was at SSJ level, in the Namek saga, presumably without ever having to train. And that lines up with how he's portrayed - as a space emperor who barely lifts a finger. Frieza training for 4 months would be unlike anyone other character training for 4 months - just like with his base power level you can expect that he'd get exponential gains compared to others.

Android 17, however, doesn't have a compelling reason to push himself to Super Saiyan Blue levels of power. And he certainly doesn't have the same resources Goku and Vegeta required to get there. It also seems bizarre that Cell would even exist if the Androids had this much untapped potential - the ability to gain power without the extreme conditions other characters require.
 
G

GuessMyUserName

Member
Slaythe said:
Well this is dumb now.

What pissed people off was that Frieza came back to life, trained for 4 months, came back stronger than god goku within the same arc/movie. The execution was different.

The concept that an enemy that was so strong could train and equal Goku made perfect sense, since every enemy used to be "the strongest" before they got taken out.

It was the case for 17.

And 17 has been out of the show for over a decade, has trained for that long, and started with an even bigger potential than Frieza.


I'm not saying they handled the 17 boost in a great way (I would have loved if he absorbed the kamehameha with his barrier instead) but you can't say this is the same problem as Frieza. That's not quite fair.
Click to expand...

Frieza and 17 are both shit but Frieza at least had Tagoma to train with. Doesn't help the 4 months thing in the slightest, but farming Tagoma's is easier to accept than farming military grunts. Sure you can say we don't know what 17's training regiment was... but that's Super's fault. The show at least tried to add a bit to Frieza's training in the show version so it could at least have some explanation. They did absolutely nothing for 17 at all. Only hope now is to make a Android 17 Special to chronologize his last 10 years!


God dammit you have me defending Frieza's training now WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
 
S

Slaythe

Member
GuessMyUserName said:
Frieza and 17 are both shit but Frieza at least had Tagoma to train with. Doesn't help the 4 months thing in the slightest, but farming Tagoma's is easier to accept than farming military grunts. Sure you can say we don't know what 17's training regiment was... but that's Super's fault. The show at least tried to add a bit to Frieza's training in the show version so it could at least have some explanation. They did absolutely nothing for 17 at all. Only hope now is to make a Android 17 Special to chronologize his last 10 years!


God dammit you have me defending Frieza's training now WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
Click to expand...

But the Frieza training bit wasn't even there in the movie that Toriyama wrote.

Plus how in the fucking hell would farming a ginyu tier dude help :p ?

It made things faster sure, but 17 had 10 years, it took Frieza 4 months.... You can't deny that's a significant difference.

And I can absolutely understand why you didn't like how they handled it, that's fair. I just don't think this particular argument is grounded.

17 is not a natural being, and he's the only one so far that has shown the ability to match Blue. Training on his own to better use his energy, or training himself against energy beams like Goku was doing... You don't have to train against anybody. :p It's slower if you're alone.
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Zolo said:
The one thing I will say about DBZ is that it's power-ups were generally more built up. Super Saiyan was hyped up during the whole Namek arc. Guru talked about how Piccolo fused with Kami could have easily beaten Frieza. Gohan's potential was built up and paid off at the end of the Cell arc.

That said, I'll take power inconsistency if it means other characters can get more spotlight since I care about that more. Trunks defeating Zamasu was a lot more narratively satisfying than Goku or Vegeta doing so. Others getting significantly more powerful, so they aren't just fleas to opponents is great.
Click to expand...

No, they weren't. Some stuff, yes, but not all.

Super Saiyan only gets name dropped once Goku fights Recoome.

SSJ3 comes out of nowhere.

Mystic Gohan is also equally bullshit as does fusion.

Hell, Gotenks learns SSJ 3 in a couple months.

And in the anime, Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo and Chiaotzu can all beat up the Ginyu Force.
 
R

Real Hero

Member
What are people even arguing about

17 said Goku was holding back

Goku said 17 was too

It is literally left a mystery how strong 17 truly is. Why get mad about something like that.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Real Hero said:
What are people even arguing about

17 said Goku was holding back

Goku said 17 was too

It is literally left a mystery how strong 17 truly is. Why get mad about something like that.
Click to expand...

Because there's no justification why Android 17 could stand up against Super Saiyan Blue at any level. The fact that he's holding back doesn't help his case.
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Alienous said:
Frieza was at SSJ level, in the Namek saga, presumably without ever having to train. And that lines up with how he's portrayed - as a space emperor who barely lifts a finger. Frieza training for 4 months would be unlike anyone other character training for 4 months - just like with his base power level you can expect that he'd get exponential gains compared to others.

Android 17, however, doesn't have a compelling reason to push himself to Super Saiyan Blue levels of power. And he certainly doesn't have the same resources Goku and Vegeta required to get there. It also seems bizarre that Cell would even exist if the Androids had this much untapped potential - the ability to gain power without the extreme conditions other characters require.
Click to expand...

Freeza, Goku and Vegeta's potential power levels are much smaller than Android 17's. Android 17 in the Cell Saga is his base level with no training is in the billions range.

Goku and Vegeta's base level with no training would be in the thousands at best. And Freeza's base is at 100 million.

Android 17 has a great reason to train. Super Bui killed him and his family so he decided to train hard so it's never happen again. Boom.

Cell's just too lazy and arrogant to train. He'd prefer absorbing people to get stronger. That's basically his training method.
 
T

The Silver

Member
Real Hero said:
Goku can be holding back lots though. I just don't see the big deal
Click to expand...
well if the issue is 17 is "god level"(as in the floor is universe punching SSG) then this isn't a good counter argument, Goku wouldn't bother transforming and wasting energy if he's just going to make himself several times weaker than his base form, it doesn't matter if he's holding back in Blue, it's still Blue.
 
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