Support NeoGAF

[ArchedThunder]

Yeah, on a farm against humans. Goku and Vegeta have been training against gods and ultimate fighters from other universes.

I'm so sick of saying this.
17's base power without training is massively higher than Freeza's and he's had around 13 years to get stronger. You don't know what he does for training, he could bench press mountains for all we know. Because of how massively powerful 17 is at a base level his gains would probably be proportional to that, similar to Freeza.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Yeah, on a farm against humans. Goku and Vegeta have been training against gods and ultimate fighters from other universes.

Goku and Vegeta are from a primitive ape-like species though whereas 17 was genetically designed to be the ultimate being (at the time, before Cell) with infinite stamina and energy.

Seriously, if 17 were the main protagonist of the series no one would be surprised that he got that strong. But because he's a supporting character people think he shouldn't be allowed to get near Goku's level...

 

[Chase17]

Good episode. Poaching appears to be pretty extreme. So I guess we will see Uub down the line. The 17 fight was solid.

 

[Servbot24]

It's been 13 years, he says he hasn't been slacking off. Frieza and Trunks showed they could match Blue levels relatively easily.

17 has no reason to be far behind.

Those Frieza and Trunks leaps were stupid too. They make Goku and Vegeta seem like nothing special. In fact they actually are kinda pathetic. They had to work that hard to reach a god level and everyone else can do it just by working on a farm or training with Picolo for a few years. It makes it seem like being the strongest fighter is really no big deal and can be achieved on a fleeting fancy.

That said I realize I'm watching a kid's show

I'm so sick of saying this.
17's base power without training is massively higher than Freeza's and he's had around 13 years to get stronger. You don't know what he does for training, he could bench press mountains for all we know. Because of how massively powerful 17 is at a base level his gains would probably be proportional to that, similar to Freeza.

Bench pressing mountains is training for bugs. Other fighters are going head to head with universe-destroying power.

 

[Slaythe]

I'm feeling nauseous thinking that this is what the thread is going to look like every week from now.

I can already see the Gohan haters jumping in for episode 88.

I'm gonna cherish this arc while it lasts because with all the whiners I'm not sure they'll ever let other people shine in the future.

When we get another garbage arc featuring eviler Vegeta super saiyan red 6, I'm sure the fanbase will be happy then.

 

[Romars202129]

We still don't know what the fuck Blue is. I wouldn't say that's their strong suit .

17's whereabouts during Buu are completely irrelevant to virtually anything going on currently.

It could have been relevant if 17 had remembered Buu upon meeting him, but since he won't remember him, it's pointless.

They never give indirect exposition to the viewers anyway unless it's directly connected to the on going plot. They always have characters share information themselves otherwise.

Don't add me into you guys blue obsession. It's ss4 for the 2010s. Also, it's a power, not history that would help you understand a character better.
Now whether understanding 17 better is relevant right now... You know what, you convinced me slaythe. 17 is completely irrelevant to this arc. I don't know what I was thinking lol. You win.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Good episode. Poaching appears to be pretty extreme. So I guess we will see Uub down the line. The 17 fight was solid.

Me when Uub was mentioned in episode 30

Me when he was mentioned again in 86

Me when it is finally announced that we are going to the end of Z

Bench pressing mountains is training for bugs. Other fighters are going head to head with universe-destroying power.

Goku lifts heavy stuff to train too, in the Buu arc 40 tons was heavy to him in his base form.
Part of Whis's training is weight based, we see them have to carry heavy blocks and then they had to train with heavy suits on.

I'm feeling nauseous thinking that this is what the thread is going to look like every week from now.

I can already see the Gohan haters jumping in for episode 88.

I'm gonna cherish this arc while it lasts because with all the whiners I'm not sure they'll ever let other people shine in the future.

When we get another garbage arc featuring eviler Vegeta super saiyan red 6, I'm sure the fanbase will be happy then.

Eh, the complaints will die down.

 

[Slaythe]

Those Frieza and Trunks leaps were stupid too. They make Goku and Vegeta seem like nothing special. In fact they actually are kinda pathetic. They had to work that hard to reach a god level and everyone else can do it just by working on a farm or training with Picolo for a few years. It makes it seem like being the strongest fighter is really no big deal and can be achieved on a fleeting fancy.

That said I realize I'm watching a kid's show

Frieza was an outmatched genius that was millions of times stronger than your average saiyans.

Saiyans are weak initially but they can get much stronger through intense training.

Hybrid saiyans can apparently mimick transformations they see easily from fellow saiyans, and also get huge power boosts thanks to anger.

17 was designed to be a saiyan destroyer. His base power without training was beyond Frieza's and any super saiyan's. He had 13 years to train after being humiliated hard. His biology also grants him infinite stamina and he doesn't need to eat, so his training sessions could be pretty intense too. And while he was on earth, keep in mind Frieza needed 4 months to reach Blue level, we're talking 13 years here. Yes it's easier for Frieza and 17 to reach those heights, because they started being FAR higher. Buu can also get stronger (Uub anyway since he had the full kid buu power, fat buu lost most of it).

 

[Slaythe]

Don't add me into you guys blue obsession. It's ss4 for the 2010s. Also, it's a power, not history that would help you understand a character better.
Now whether understanding 17 better is relevant right now... You know what, you convinced me slaythe. 17 is completely irrelevant to this arc. I don't know what I was thinking lol. You win.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Those Frieza and Trunks leaps were stupid too. They make Goku and Vegeta seem like nothing special. In fact they actually are kinda pathetic. They had to work that hard to reach a god level and everyone else can do it just by working on a farm or training with Picolo for a few years. It makes it seem like being the strongest fighter is really no big deal and can be achieved on a fleeting fancy.

That said I realize I'm watching a kid's show

But they are nothing. Titles like legendary Super Saiyan and prince of the Saiyans are meaningless. Goku and Vegeta had a bit of a starting advantage due to their species' biology, but they mostly achieved what they achieved through training and shear willpower, nothing else. Not like Frieza who was literally born as a genetic freak, and Androids who were literally designed to be ultimate beings by the most intelligent person in the multiverse, or Gohan and Trunks who had the advantage of being hybrids, etc.

 

[Romars202129]

Keep telling yourself that.

...He's my favorite character in the series slaythe.
Are you high dude?

 

[Real Hero]

Eh, the complaints will die down.

EH HOW CAN ROSHI ELIMINATE GOLDEN FROST WITH HYPNOSIS, IT SHOULDN'T WORK ON HIGHER POWER LEVELS BULL SHIT TORIYAMA SUPER IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY

 

[Skii]

LOL I called it. 17 is actually stronger than SSB. RIP Vegeta. It's only because Goku is hiding a new transformation or 17 would be the strongest being on Earth.

Good episode overall and I'm not too perplexed by the massive nerf to SSB. I saw this coming a mile off after what happened in the Black arc. They just need to make sure that the likes of Gohan, Piccolo, Buu, Krillin etc. are more inline with SSB so they can actually contribute to the tournament along with Goku, Vegeta and 17.

I also can understand why people are annoyed by this. SSB is supposed to be this divine power only a saiyan can achieve and then to see Frieza achieve it after 4 months, Trunks to achieve it after getting a bit angry and 17 achieving it by fighting some poachers is pretty funny. But you just gotta roll with it now. It's either this or this show is just Vegeta and Goku and nobody else does anything. And that would make it almost as bad as GT.

 

[Moaradin]

Power Levels were a mistake.

 

[Slaythe]

...He's my favorite character in the series slaythe.
Are you high dude?

I thought you meant 17 is irrelevant to the current arc.

 

[AlucardGV]

I also can understand why people are annoyed by this. SSB is supposed to be this divine power only a saiyan can achieve and then to see Frieza achieve it after 4 months, Trunks to achieve it after getting a bit angry and 17 achieving it by fighting some poachers is pretty funny. But you just gotta roll with it now. It's either this or this show is just Vegeta and Goku and nobody else does anything. And that would make it almost as bad as GT.

i'm annoyed because everyone but piccolo get it

 

[Slaythe]

LOL I called it. 17 is actually stronger than SSB. RIP Vegeta. It's only because Goku is hiding a new transformation or 17 would be the strongest being on Earth.

Good episode overall and I'm not too perplexed by the massive nerf to SSB. I saw this coming a mile off after what happened in the Black arc. They just need to make sure that the likes of Gohan, Piccolo, Buu, Krillin etc. are more inline with SSB so they can actually contribute to the tournament along with Goku, Vegeta and 17.

I also can understand why people are annoyed by this. SSB is supposed to be this divine power only a saiyan can achieve and then to see Frieza achieve it after 4 months, Trunks to achieve it after getting a bit angry and 17 achieving it by fighting some poachers is pretty funny. But you just gotta roll with it now. It's either this or this show is just Vegeta and Goku and nobody else does anything. And that would make it almost as bad as GT.

Come on now.
17 held his ground, in no way was he "stronger" than Goku.

That was a pretty even exchange. He's probably on Vegeta's level but weaker than Goku(kaioken and co).

i'm annoyed because everyone but piccolo get it

He will have his episode in two weeks.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

The fight in the sunset could have looked good if the characters didn't turn into shitty looking ragdolls during it. Thanks for nothing Tate

 

[Infinite Justice]

I'm feeling nauseous thinking that this is what the thread is going to look like every week from now.

I can already see the Gohan haters jumping in for episode 88.

I'm gonna cherish this arc while it lasts because with all the whiners I'm not sure they'll ever let other people shine in the future.

When we get another garbage arc featuring eviler Vegeta super saiyan red 6, I'm sure the fanbase will be happy then.

Wait until Tien and Roshi

 

[Skii]

Come on now.
17 held his ground, in no way was he "stronger" than Goku.

That was a pretty even exchange. He's probably on Vegeta's level but weaker than Goku(kaioken and co).




He will have his episode in two weeks.

I didnt say he was stronger than Goku. But he's definitely stronger than SSB (Vegeta and Goku). The fact that they say 17 is holding back even though he's fighting SSB means he's stronger than SSB lol. When they reference Goku holding back its either his SSBKK or the new transformation.

 

[RocknRola]

Don't really get why people are so mad about power levels. Were you not around during DBZ? xD

One could argue that the Frieza saga already kinda went to town with that, but they did have more of a build-up there in how they did things and got their powers (relatively speaking). With the start of the Android/Cell saga onwards it became a "power-up!!" show on a ridiculous silly level

More Super Saiyans, Androids, Super Vegeta, Bulky Trunks, Cell, "Perfect SSJ", SSJ2... it only got "worse" when we reached the Buu Saga! Kids getting SSJ just because, fusions, rituals that unlocked potential, SSJ3, etc. It's nothing new dudes, calm down.

The only real difference is that this time around it wasn't just Goku, Vegeta and Gohan making real progress (one way or the other). If it means dudes like Gohan (which got shafted pretty hard since the end of Z up until now), Piccolo, 17, Krillin, etc get more time to shine, the better!

 

[Cimarron]

There literally THOUSANDS of reasons why 17 didn't interfere in the Buu saga. Maybe when the human genocide attack was launched he got killed in his sleep or was banging his wife. No one is 100% alert at all times. Geesh.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Mr Popo was right Goku be sleeping on Earth

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Was I the only one that thought this when 17 stared down that kamehameha

I thought of this but it wasn't nearly as funny

 

[flintstryker]

I don't understand the upset over power levels now when it hasn't made sense for all of Super so far, just roll with it folks you'll be much happier that way.

 

[Slaythe]

I thought of this but it wasn't nearly as funny

The fight in the sunset could have looked good if the characters didn't turn into shitty looking ragdolls during it. Thanks for nothing Tate

Wait until Tien and Roshi

Ok those made me laugh.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Don't really get why people are so mad about power levels. Were you not around during DBZ? xD

I think most of us understand its been pretty shitty and just roll with it.

Except that one guy who has convinced himself into thinking the power levels in Z were fine lol

 

[Alienous]

It's a tenet of the series to justify power increases, so if Gohan ended up with Super Saiyan Blue levels of power "what?" would be an appropriate response.

The Super team shouldn't have left Android 17's power gains up to speculation. Even with Frieza they established "Well, I was almost as powerful as a Super Saiyan without training, this is how powerful I am with training". and that didn't contradict anything we had seen.

With Android 17 they should have contexualized his power increase - maybe they still will. "I was built by Gero to have unlimited ki power - I have no upper limit". "I can train and never get exhausted". "Oh, there's a Hyperbolic Time Chamber in that cave over there". But amassing Super Saiyan Blue levels of power for no real reason just seems weird. Android 18 didn't do it, and they both have families, so it's not hardwired into him (presumably).

This laid back character training to that level of power to defeat poachers doesn't wash.

 

[Slaythe]

It's a tenet of the series to justify power increases, so if Gohan ended up with Super Saiyan Blue levels of power "what?" would be an appropriate response.

The Super team shouldn't have left it Android 17's power gains up to speculation. Even with Frieza they established "Well, I was almost as powerful as a Super Saiyan without training, this is how powerful I am with training". and that didn't contradict anything we had seen.

With Android 17 they should have contexualized his power increase - maybe they still will. "I was built by Gero to have unlimited ki power - I have no upper limit". "I can train and never get exhausted". "Oh, there's a Hyperbolic Time Chamber in that cave over there". But amassing Super Saiyan Blue levels of power for no real reason just seems weird. Android 18 didn't do it, and they both have families, so it's not hardwired into him (presumably).

This laid back character training to that level of power to defeat poachers doesn't wash.

18 was made weaker than 17, and she didn't ever say she trained. He did.

 

[RocknRola]

It's a tenet of the series to justify power increases, so if Gohan ended up with Super Saiyan Blue levels of power "what?" would be an appropriate response.

The Super team shouldn't have left it Android 17's power gains up to speculation. Even with Frieza they established "Well, I was almost as powerful as a Super Saiyan without training, this is how powerful I am with training". and that didn't contradict anything we had seen.

With Android 17 they should have contexualized his power increase - maybe they still will. "I was built by Gero to have unlimited ki power - I have no upper limit". "I can train and never get exhausted". "Oh, there's a Hyperbolic Time Chamber in that cave over there". But amassing Super Saiyan Blue levels of power for no real reason just seems weird. Android 18 didn't do it, and they both have families, so it's not hardwired into him (presumably).

This laid back character training to that level of power to defeat poachers doesn't wash.

18 has Krillin, which in turn has Goku. She can chill all she wants and not have to worry

 

[Infinite Justice]

This laid back character training to that level of power to defeat poachers doesn't wash.

Hes been doing it for 10 or so years? Gains are inevitable.

 

[ArchedThunder]

18 was made weaker than 17, and she didn't ever say she trained. He did.

18 has Krillin, which in turn has Goku. She can chill all she wants and not have to worry

Also, from the very beginning 18 was never really all that into fighting.

 

[foxuzamaki]

I have to repeat this to myself every time I see some power scale nonsense in an episode. An episode that brings 17 of all people back to the fold is fine by me, DBZ/DBS has never been a show that was consistent with power levels to begin with, and it never will be.

It's just a nostalgia-fueled trip that is finally attempting to correct DBZ being the "Goku and Vegeta show" all the time. Fine by me.

Pretty much. Continues to put another sword through power level nonsense, while bringing awesome characters like 17 back into the fold and stopping it from just being the Saiyan shown and acting like they're the only ones capable of getting completely BS powerups because reasons. Two birds, one stone. Win win for me. ^^

This is how I feel

 

[Servbot24]

Frieza was an outmatched genius that was millions of times stronger than your average saiyans.

Saiyans are weak initially but they can get much stronger through intense training.

Hybrid saiyans can apparently mimick transformations they see easily from fellow saiyans, and also get huge power boosts thanks to anger.

17 was designed to be a saiyan destroyer. His base power without training was beyond Frieza's and any super saiyan's. He had 13 years to train after being humiliated hard. His biology also grants him infinite stamina and he doesn't need to eat, so his training sessions could be pretty intense too. And while he was on earth, keep in mind Frieza needed 4 months to reach Blue level, we're talking 13 years here. Yes it's easier for Frieza and 17 to reach those heights, because they started being FAR higher. Buu can also get stronger (Uub anyway since he had the full kid buu power, fat buu lost most of it).

The only reasoning presented in the writing is literally just stating "oh he's really strong." Why is he strong? "He was just born that way" / "I designed him that way." That's really unsatisfying. Especially when we've gone through hundreds of episodes to see how strong Goku can be and the answer is that it's all rendered moot because someone gets written into existence that is instantly that strong.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I don't know why people still watching these shit. DBS is a vomit that shouldn't have exist and is an insult to the entire DBS canon. I mean look at these shitty episode quality. Why? Why are people not boycotting it?

They fucked Trunks hair. They fucked Gohan's hair. And now they are fucking around with 17's power level!

Because the 6 year old Japanese children that make up most of the people watching the show aren't good at assembly?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

17 got his ass handed to him by Cell and Piccolo. 18 has a less arrogant personality and she's probably content with having destroyed Vegeta's pride in front of witnesses (she destroyed him so bad Vegeta never ever talked to her again for the rest of the series).

 

[Slaythe]

The only reasoning presented in the writing is literally just stating "oh he's really strong." Why is he strong? "He was just born that way" / "I designed him that way." That's really unsatisfying. Especially when we've gone through hundreds of episodes to see how strong Goku can be and the answer is that it's all rendered moot because someone gets written into existence that is instantly that strong.

????????????


Ok I have a solution.

But it involves ninja turtles and a time machine.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

So 18 can spar with SSJG Goku just from working a farm and tossing out human scrubs...

Welcome to Super LOL. Where logic gets tossed out of the window.

Watch how Roshi gets to god level by looking at a porn mag.

 

[Magwik]

I'm feeling nauseous thinking that this is what the thread is going to look like every week from now.

I can already see the Gohan haters jumping in for episode 88.

I'm gonna cherish this arc while it lasts because with all the whiners I'm not sure they'll ever let other people shine in the future.

When we get another garbage arc featuring eviler Vegeta super saiyan red 6, I'm sure the fanbase will be happy then.

They brought up Uub! Let's just go back to EoZ canon debates please

 

[Kagari]

One thing I like about this arc that the others really lacked is they've brought back a sense of adventure, traveling to other locations around the world. It's a small detail but I really appreciate it after the last arc took place almost entirely in Bulma's back yard.

 

[Real Hero]

They brought up Uub! Let's just go back to EoZ canon debates please

They have brought up uub twice, there's no debate

 

[Infinite Justice]

They have brought up uub twice, there's no debate

As long as GT continues to be forgotten then its fine.

 

[SuperOrez]

What a rip off. We didn't even get to see 17s family.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Gohan and Piccolo shouldn't get ragged on. We see them train, we've heard for many episodes that they want to get strong. You don't need to assume anything because the show contrxtualized all that info for ya.

If anything that's kinda how it should be done for all characters.

 

[Romars202129]

It's weird YouTube posts are more positive about this than here...

 

[Undead Fantasy]

As long as GT continues to be forgotten then its fine.

The only positive this series has now. It buried GT and that's it.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

They brought up Uub! Let's just go back to EoZ canon debates please

What's interesting IMO is that Dende seemed to suggest that Goku "needs to teach him how to use his power". As in, Uub could maybe go evil if no one teaches him right. Before that, all we knew was that Goku would train him just because he wants a sparring partner.

 

[Seven Force]

I missed the episode, but I'm assuming that 17 beat Goku?

Spoiler

Awesome.

 

[ArchedThunder]

The only positive this series has now. It buried GT and that's it.

I can't believe that 17 being strong COMPLETELY ruined the series for you. It's really not that big of a deal.

 

[SuperOrez]

It's weird YouTube posts are more positive about this than here...

Yeah. It kinda bums me out to be honest.