I agree that they messed up with having to set up all these characters too fast (in hours according to the show), however if they had weeks/months they'd do the same thing.
I have no idea why they decided not to have a larger gap between the U7 vs U9 match and the tournament itself. It should have been pretty obvious that they would end up writing themselves into a corner with it.
As for the U6 Saiyans though, I just don't care enough about the Super Saiyan transformation to get mad at it. It's been a limiting factor in a character's usefulness for so long, so if it ends up being trivialized then maybe one day characters like Krillin will be allowed to keep up without it.
Tbh the biggest power scale problem was Roshi defeating Tien like nothing were during Z Roshi is saibaman tier and Tien is waaaay more powerful even just during the saiyan saga without mentioning later parts. Also Roshi doesn't even train and Tien is constantly training(he even opened a school as in super).
Thats whats sad about super, in Z you can make some theories with things that aren't explained (Goten being born after Goku was SSJ and ChiChi training him everyday with little love) while in super things just happens
Roshi didn't really defeat him, he used a paralysis technique and then Goku stepped in before Tenshinhan had a chance to do anything.
Also yes, Roshi does train.
From a story telling point of view, super's power creeps feel fairly unsatisfying and have little build up. Even though power levels are BS overall, Z did it better. That doesn't make super a terrible show, but people seem to really dig deep to defend it. If you just take a step back you realize it's not the power creeps that are the issue, it's how the writers handle them. Sure we aren't watching this show for the writing, but lowering our standards in that way definitely detracts from the quality of the show.
I enjoy the show for what it is but don't have this burning need to defend it no matter what, unlike some fans.
From a story telling point of view, super's power creeps feel fairly unsatisfying and have little build up. Even though power levels are BS overall, Z did it better. That doesn't make super a terrible show, but people seem to really dig deep to defend it. If you just take a step back you realize it's not the power creeps that are the issue, it's how the writers handle them. Sure we aren't watching this show for the writing, but lowering our standards in that way definitely detracts from the quality of the show.
I enjoy the show for what it is but don't have this burning need to defend it no matter what, unlike some fans.
Well you're not watching for the mind blowing art.
The writing is really good and competent, as long as it doesn't deal with power ups and Goku/Saiyans. Goku is absolutely insufferable. I guess the new saiyans take after him.
Everything else is on point. It's a funny show, with interesting characters and a lot of cool interactions within the cast, something the first part of Super and latest parts of Z lacked.
Z showed you the training. It made it more believable. the buildup is necessary for me to believe Roshi put in work. As I've said before, this show has a problem with telling and not showing.
Z showed you the training. It made it more believable. the buildup is necessary for me to believe Roshi put in work. As I've said before, this show has a problem with telling and not showing.
It's the main reason why I give this form so much shit. The original transformation scene sucked (just completely out of nowhere in Revival of F with no build up or explanation), and it hasn't had a single cool moment.
Also I will always use SSJ over SS because SS sounds like you're talking about a boat.
Stop talking about boats. We're talking about japanese children's cartoons.
I don't think that's true.
Cabba is a truly good person, going out of his way to help make his universe a better place. It's a pretty unique take on a Saiyan and sadly has been underutilized.
And Caulifla might be a punk, but she has been shown to truly care for her friend(while Goku completely ignores Krillin).
Kale is a Broly clone so we got exactly what we expected, but to say the other two are as insufferable as Goku doesn't seem right. I'm not going to call them my new favorite characters or anything, but Goku worked hard to become as unlikable as he is and he is still unmatched.
Oh, I think they are doing a great job with him in this arc. It's a very interesting take on an aspect of his personality that hasn't really been focused on too much before.
But that doesn't mean I think he is being a likable person, haha.
But it's been firmly established that SSJ3 was a bad transformation that tired Goku out during the course of a match. He even makes a point of it to Caulifla that the bulky form has poor endurance but suggests she can go SSJ3 one day. It's just completely nonsensical. Goku never goes SSJ3 anymore and always goes SSB after SSJ2 because SSJ3 is objectively a terrible transformation to use. It just makes no sense why he'd suggest it to her.
Yeah the less we see of U6, the better. It's a shame considering how well they were portrayed in the first tournament arc.
Idm Cabba and I like Caulifla's design but she is the absolute worst offender of stupid power ups that are absolutely not consistent with any sort of character building or development. So I'm growing to dislike her every time I see her on screen now.
Kale is the absolute worst of the anime tropes she's based on. Just so fucking annoying.
I kinda now want Gohan to be the only Universe 7 fighter left. When Goku interrupted Hit and Jiren I was annoyed. I don't want to see him fight anymore. Hit vs Jiren would have been really great.
I kinda now want Gohan to be the only Universe 7 fighter left. When Goku interrupted Hit and Jiren I was annoyed. I don't want to see him fight anymore. Hit vs Jiren would have been really great.
It took Goku and Vegeta a while to "master" SSJ. Caulifla reached SSJ2, but Goku was just kind of quietly smirking while she was obviously putting in effort.
They're comparable and SSJ can still be considered a multiplier, but it isn't a "flat" or concrete multiplier, as we've seen many times. A burst of rage can make SSJ2 temporarily outperform a casual use of SSJ3. There's also ki-control at play: reaching the transformation isn't enough; a mastered SSJ outperforms SSJ Grade 2 or USSJ. I don't see the problem in these kinds of power creeps as long as it's given explanation or some form of storytelling nod.
I thought Kale was cool too, tossing SSJ2 around like ragdoll. But I still have no idea how powerful SSB is, except vaguely "beyond SSJ3," as Vegeta put it to Trunks. From what I've seen in the Zamasu arc, it dips to SSJ2 levels -- and I'm not sure that's an intentional quirk of the transformation; I'm pretty sure it's just poor storytelling.
Another thing that bugs me is that SSB takes less of a toll on the body than SSJ apparently, but they keep using SSJ forms to "conserve" energy. Probably a detail Toei forgot after they decided to bring back kaioken.
But I still have no idea how powerful SSB is, except vaguely "beyond SSJ3," as Vegeta put it to Trunks. From what I've seen in the Zamasu arc, it dips to SSJ2 levels -- and I'm not sure that's an intentional quirk of the transformation; I'm pretty sure it's just poor storytelling.
It utilizes god ki and is orders stronger than SSJ3, not only marginally. The prevailing theory is that the ki control factor let's it dip to SSJ2 levels, but it's never been implicitly stated in the show.
The hyping of SSB (how difficult it is to achieve/maintain and how powerful it is) has been such a central tenant of DBS that a novice fighter, who only just discovered SSJ a few hours previous, taking a dump on it is absolutely jarring.
Ass pulls like SSR and the Genki Dama Sword are bad, but episode 100 is just bullshit. An insult from start to finish.
I think Kale's ability as a fighter has little to do with her berserker state, which is blind rage + unbridled power. It's just the nature of the transformation, which no one else has. Like she was facetanking blows to the face and stomach. And that's fine. Whatever. A super transformation. It was visually impressive, with steam coming from her mouth and the colors changing. And she's not completely useless as a fighter -- she's Caulifla's protoge for a reason; but, like I said that seems to have little to do with it.
The fact that SSJ2 could withstand a punch (the one that made Goku back flip) but Blue couldn't dent with a kamehameha is what's troubling. Also, Caulifla knocking her down with SSJ2 earlier in the arc.
The only excuse I can think of is that Kale's power was steadily growing, only hinted at by her inability to "contain" it after a certain point. Maybe they'll explain it later (they won't), but it's totally a headscratcher.
I don't think that's true.
Cabba is a truly good person, going out of his way to help make his universe a better place. It's a pretty unique take on a Saiyan and sadly has been underutilized.
And Caulifla might be a punk, but she has been shown to truly care for her friend(while Goku completely ignores Krillin).
Kale is a Broly clone so we got exactly what we expected, but to say the other two are as insufferable as Goku doesn't seem right. I'm not going to call them my new favorite characters or anything, but Goku worked hard to become as unlikable as he is and he is still unmatched.
I actually think that Kale's meant to be more than a Brolly clone ... or at least Brolly done right.
As in, yes ... she's a Brolly clone in many ways. But fundamentally they're different and that allows her to become something greater (and by that I mean she can become an actual CHARACTER and not a meat headed, evil, force of nature).
For example, from what I remember of Brolly in his base he just comes across as "Meh". like what you think of when thinking of someone who takes many anti-depressants. His trigger for LSS is Goku for a dumb reason. That's something that can't be rectified. If just seeing or hearing Kakarot, the protag of the series, throws him into a mindless evil rage then yeah, you can't really sit down and change that. There's no where his character can go because he simply can't be in the same story as Goku without being consumed by his power.
Kale isn't like that. This form hasn't been eating away at her mind all her life, she only recently unlocked it. In base she's got personally and clear weaknesses that she can work on and over come. And most importantly her trigger is her affection for someone combined with her own insecurities in regards to their relationship. It's something she can come to terms with and rectify.
That's why I feel like they did what they did. SSBerserk up til now has been a huge homage to Brolly and a love letter to his fans, basically making lss canon. But the one picture we have of Kale's
future SS form
and the fact that she ended up going for Caulifla right before being KOed outta SSBerserk (simply because Caulifla drew her attention) makes me feel like that's the last time we're gonna see her like that.
I feel like Hit will bring up how Kale came after Caulifla in that final moment and almost ringed her out before then. Caulifla might not give a fuck but that will likely hit Kale hard seeing how she feels about Caulifla and her complete lack of memory about what happens in that form. Feel like her and Caulifla will have an interaction next episode that really gives Kale the push to let Caulifla's words of encouragement sink in and control her power in a new form. The
2nd SS Kale form we see is clearly not just the SS form of a skinny small female, she still grows in size like in berserk but not nearly as much and she looks confident - not timid and not mindless/ raged/ evil.
I love all 3 U6 Saiyans and Kale just slips past Caulifla as my favorite right now.
Still think Caulifla is gonna unlock SS4 :x
The thing with Kale is she hated Goku for one episode, her hating Goku isn't going to be a reoccurring thing.
This might be the last time we see her Broly form, pending next episode. Unless the keep the Broly form as the "stronger yet uncontrollable form", while her other LSSJ form is weaker, but maybe at SSJ3 level/ or Caulifla and Goku SSJ2 levels.
I think Kale's ability as a fighter has little to do with her berserker state, which is blind rage + unbridled power. It's just the nature of the transformation, which no one else has. Like she was facetanking blows to the face and stomach. And that's fine. Whatever. A super transformation. It was visually impressive, with steam coming from her mouth and the colors changing. And she's not completely useless as a fighter -- she's Caulifla's protoge for a reason; but, like I said that seems to have little to do with it.
The fact that SSJ2 could withstand a punch (the one that made Goku back flip) but Blue couldn't dent with a kamehameha is what's troubling. Also, Caulifla knocking her down with SSJ2 earlier in the arc.
The only excuse I can think of is that Kale's power was steadily growing, only hinted at by her inability to "contain" it after a certain point. Maybe they'll explain it later (they won't), but it's totally a headscratcher.
Hopefully we see her fight in base so we can gauge her power.
I think what they were going for, but the fight needed to be longer to show it effectively, was her getting stronger the longer the fight went on, like what happened with Broly.
The lore around SS has been broken since Goten and Trunks to be honest.
But I think the core logic of the entire shebang is that *discovering* the form is difficult, but teaching the form is far less so.
Then again the logic might just be that it doesn't matter all that much. U7 is scrub tier thanks to Buu and Freeza. U6 is far stronger so SS is an easier transformation for its Oozaru-less Saiyans.
Would people have received the back idea better if Vegeta tried teaching it to Cabba like that and failed, so he resorted to threatening to kill him and his people?
Then we would have had 50+ episodes to sit on the idea, without seeing it in practice. I think the big problem was we were introduced to something new, and then it was learned right away so we didn't have time to take it in and reflect on it. Though I think the idea was no one but Cabba was smart enough to think of it in terms of using your back, so you lose that intelligence factor for Cabba. Everyone else just did it naturally without caring where it came from.
I think after this arc we'll see Cabba try to teach saiyans this way and fail.
Why is the Toei animation for DBS so bad? Nartuo's is way better.
And I don't like how they're watering down SSJ Blue. I don't know why they choose to go with that color. I wish they would of made his transformation more aesthetically pleasing.
I think it would have been interesting to see Kale taking visible battle damage and just not caring. Getting hit with a kamehameha from SSB clearly injuring her but she's too enraged to care. Thus her unawareness of her injuries prove to be a weakness as her body eventually can't keep up with her mind and rage.
RE: Super Saiyan 3 Caulifla. I think Goku talking about that form might be a clever (for him, at least) way for him to show her how much there is to learn about mastering her Saiyan abilities before she gets to Blueper Saiyan given the immense drain that is Super Saiyan 3.
I havent watched a single Super episode and just learned about some of the characters like Goku Black or Rage Trunks from the mobile Dokkan game. Was a big DB and DBZ fan back in the day though.
Just casually browsing this thread this post caught my attention....
Broly actually isn't a good character though. He's strong just because and his M.O. is KAKAROT. He's poorly written, but popular for being a badass.
They literally copied said poorly written character, added a shitton of nostalgia throw backs, replaced KAKAROT with SONGOKU, and made him whinier and less appealing.
As bad as that all is, Kale's power leap is worse. I can't think of a parallel in the series or anything that comes even remotely close. From relative weakling to just below SSJ2 Caulifla to SSB Goku/god ki/universe level power in hours. In a series full to the bursting with plot holes and asspulls, this actually manages to stand out as jarring and could perhaps be a bridge too far for some.
