There is a sense of danger in this arc, as well as previous ones. We just saw a universe get erased not that long ago. Frieza is a thing. Y'all just don't count it due to the atmosphere not being as foreboding as Z's often was. Which is completely understandable, but still... it is there.
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Dragon Ball Super |OT7| Please wait for Tien to be cool.
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There is a sense of danger in this arc, as well as previous ones. We just saw a universe get erased not that long ago. Frieza is a thing. Y'all just don't count it due to the atmosphere not being as foreboding as Z's often was. Which is completely understandable, but still... it is there.
Sony
Nintendo
First of all, chill my dude. If you wanna throw around insults we're gonna have a fun old time and get banned
I didn't insult you, I told you that you don't know what you're talking about. Yes, power boosts always existed in Z but how ridiculous they might be, like I outlined every power boost in my post, there is some form of explanation to it that makes it reasonable within its context. I'm a big fan of Dragonball, Z and hell, even GT. So you can safely assume that I don't hate Super "just because". I want it to be good. The posters I initially quoted compared DBS to Z, not me. Yet Super is doing fuck all to make someone care about it. BoG arc is dumb, RoF was a disgrace, U6 arc was ok, Zamasu arc is wasted potential and ToP so far is a mess. Then there are people that normalize Super's failings by saying "yeah but Z too" while Z did everything better than Super and then some.
RocknRola
Member
Super has also given explanations to it's boosts, except for Geets getting God Ki and Trunks doing his own thing in the Goku Black Saga. Otherwise nothing that happened in Super wouldn't happen in Z.
And no, you're the one that did a massive post was praising Z for it's "explanations" and then shitting on Super for it's explanations, which is why I quoted you.
In fact you literally started by saying this:
Which is blatantly not true for more than half the show. Heck even during it's first third it's not really completely true either. Perhaps you need to rewatch Z from top to bottom without nostalgia goggles on.
You also finish with this:
Once again: it's blatantly not true. Even going as far back as the OG DB you had mystical water giving massive boosts to Goku.
Do stay mad at Super, by all means. All opinions are welcome here, even if they don't make much sense. Hell we even allow Broly fans in!
RocknRola
Member
I agree, especially when your argument is that Z and it's power boosts made sense. The answer is alway no to that.
And this is coming from a person who still values the stretch from Raditz to Freeza as one of best/most entertaining pieces of anime ever made, in spite of all the inconsistencies and ass pulls. Nothing, even in the same show, ever matched that in excitement.
Heh, that montage. Nice
Though I gotta say, it always feels weird to see the female characters in DB be sexualized in statues and similar art objects.
The show does a decent-ish job of visually representing them, though their roles and character development could be a lot better of course.
Sony
Nintendo
Quote me where I said that. Full quote. Actually no nvm, don't. I don't want you to not get the point again.
RocknRola
Member
Heh, that montage. Nice
Though I gotta say, it always feels weird to see the female characters in DB be sexualized in statues and similar art objects.
The show does a decent-ish job of visually representing them, though their roles and character development could be a lot better of course.
And Videl actually got off easy. On the other hand Chi Chi and 18...
RocknRola
Member
Yup, 18 in particular had a super over the top statue. Like straight out of One Piece bad.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Which z powerboost is as drastic as stuff that happened in super anyway?
RocknRola
Member
Goku goes from SSJ straight to SSJ3 off-screen. Gohan goes from SSJ2 to similar levels (to SSJ3) by sitting down in front of a ball with an old God.
Goten and Trunks are stronger as kids than anyone else shown in the entire series so far (including Super) without any real explanation for it and (so far as well) no real follow-up to it either.
I mean, people can try to justify it in any way or shape, but an asspull is always an asspull. Z and Super are not different in that regard.
Nah that's what Trunks did when he tried to fight Cell.
Sony
Nintendo
Don't bother man.
RocknRola
Member
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
None of that is "asspull" tho except goten and trunks everything else was worked for, trunks and his new form/spirit sword is asspull,not knowing about a form and feeling it in ya back to achieve it is asspull(love you califia but still), my bulma is asspull
Goku spent 7 years constantly training what you think was gonna happen he'd stay super saiyan levels
bryanee
Member
Have to say Trunks and Goten getting Super Saiyan bugged me a hell of alot more than any of the power boosts in Super. At this point its like who gives a fuck? Gimme all the nonsensical power boosts you can.
Also trying to hold out and build up a bunch of episodes to watch failed. Kale tanking Goku was very satisfying.
Also trying to hold out and build up a bunch of episodes to watch failed. Kale tanking Goku was very satisfying.
Sony
Nintendo
+ Gohan trained with the Z sword. Base Goku who was able to go SS3 couldn't hold the sword as easily as Gohan did. Added, Gohan's potential had been established since the first couple of episodes all throughout DBZ. But something something old guy dancing.
AlimNassor
Banned
I just realized Jiren is an expy of Jotaro and Toppo of Joseph. Jiren is the stoic badass that rarely emotes and Toppo is the heart and soul of the team.
RocknRola
Member
I argue very much that is, since all we get for those is "they trained" (and in Gohan's example, not even that). You know, like what we see Cauli doing. Like what we're told and shown Freeza did. Like what we're told and partially shown Geets did to get his God Ki.
Your problem, your only problem, is that the scales of power are now greater by comparison to Z. Which makes sense. Z to DB, even at just the Saiyan saga made the previous power levels look ridiculous, much less after Freeza.
And Gohan getting a 2nd potential unlock in the Buu saga was a major asspull. Especially so when the actual show made it irrelevant a few episodes later.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Aye I was just trynna give ppl something there. I can't imagine how anybody has a problem with them than can praise cabba,kale and califia
RocknRola
Member
By the same logic that any new characters in Super being X or Y strong are a problem. If people don't have an issue with the kids and their strenght right from the start, having a problem with Freeza, 17, Cabba, Cauli or Kale is hypocritical.
We're given just as much explanation for the U6 Saiyans as fro Goten and Trunks: none. They're just made to be that strong from the start and that's that. Just like Buu was strong even in his "kid" form. Just like Freeza was strong from the start.
I just find hilarious that people have so many issues with Super when it's doing almost nothing different than what Z did in terms of establishing brand new characters as strong. They just are.
Mediking
Member
Gohan reaction for all of 101
Depending on the angle... I would've said that was Vegeta. Lol
LSauchelli
Member
I think U6 Saiyans might not be really full-blooded saiyans. It would explain why they lost their tails ages ago and why they're SSGod level without even going Super Saiyan.
It's not hypocritical.
Frieza 17 and Gohan had time.
Caulifla and Kale come out of nowhere, were not recruited in U6's tournament as "the strongest", learn of Super Saiyan and instantly proceed to be above Super Saiyan god tier, and beyond, in 2 hours of in universe time.
That is absolutely incomparable. The only thing you can compare it to, is hit getting stronger "cause he wants to" and Trunks.
But even then, they had no clue about this realm of power, had not noticed it themselves, fought anybody on that level, Which would be fine if they had TIME, they had no fucking time to train to figure it out after some effort but just casually improvised it in seconds, while implying shitting transformations out is the only way to get stronger, no proper fighting style or techniques of any kind, it's just terrible.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Ugh gotta agree with the 17 lover Xp
Solid Sora
Member
I always thought that to reach a new SSJ level you need a minimum base power + intense emotional moment.
Caaba followed the rules.
Caulifla is a prodigy that doesn't need the intense moment part, which is a thing the show reacted to as unnatural and impressive. She still maxed at SSJ2 though.
Kale is a special exception since she seems to to be the legendary every 1000 years Super Saiyan. So it's not a matter of training for her but a natural gift.
I think all of those are way more believable than Ikari, for example.
Caaba followed the rules.
Caulifla is a prodigy that doesn't need the intense moment part, which is a thing the show reacted to as unnatural and impressive. She still maxed at SSJ2 though.
Kale is a special exception since she seems to to be the legendary every 1000 years Super Saiyan. So it's not a matter of training for her but a natural gift.
I think all of those are way more believable than Ikari, for example.
Why do you keep calling it "Ikari"? I haven't seen anyone else use that. I thought we're past weeabooisms like that, just call it RSSJ or whatever.
Caulifla and Kale were not recruited because
1.) Champa didn't know they existed
2.) Champa underestimated Saiyans as a race
Cabba in base form was in the lower half of U6 members, so he definitely wasn't the first to be recruited. After seeing Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue Champa's interest in Saiyans skyrocketed and he ordered Cabba to fetch more Saiyans for the Universal Tournament. Their power still isn't out of the ordinary for their universe, U6 is just a whole lot stronger than U7.
Blackquill
Member
Remember that Gohan at 5 or 6 years old was basically stronger than Goku before his first death even though he only trained for one year (and most of the training was survival in the wild, like Goku did for years as a young boy)
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
It's not established that she is LSSJ.
Her Super Sayjin form is established through sadness and not rage.
RocknRola
Member
Jus like Cabba, Hit and others came out of nowhere and were strong from the start.
Cabba at his base form managed to hold off Vegeta. Their base, from day 1, is that strong. Which is why them achieving SSJ is a non-issue. They're already strong as hell, a lot stronger than any of the U7 Saiyans was pre-SSJ transformations. He also learned to transform pretty darn fast, just by raw emotion ( a bit like Kale).
Hit at his base form was dealing enough damage on SSB Goky & Vegeta right from the start to knock them out and actually injure them. Hell, he took a beating from SSB+KKx10 Goku and still stood up like a champ. Likewise Toppo, (though not with KKx10, yet).
Granted, with Cauli they went a bit nuts with it, though that's their poor writing coming into play. Expecting major gains from anyone in mere hours before the tournament was quite the hole they put themselves into. In any case they've build her up as a genius fighter, thus the nonsense.
As for the "only transformations matter to become stronger" that was the entire premise of Z post Freeza, and even early Super (SSJ - various pre-SSJ2 forms- SSJ2- SSJ3 -Gohans Ultimate/Mystic/thingy- God form + SSB + SSBKKx10). And we'll likely get a new transformation this arc too. That has been the theme for a while. Still this was the first arc in a long ass time to put the focus back on techniques and not necessarily raw power, so that's something I guess. Not much, but something.
The only thing we know about Goten and Trunks is that they're hybrids, ergo potential, ergo SSJ without any proper battles and way younger than anyone else. That's it. Hell Goten's transformation (or what they showed us as his supposed 1st transformation) is just as silly as anything in Super. Against Chichi. In a basic training session. They also didn't fight anyone strong (unless Geets made sure to go all out on Trunks) during their young years.
I'm sorry, but I don't really see the issue in new characters being strong from the start. If anything I see an issue in Goku constantly using SSB this arc at, apparently, inconsistent power levels against different opponents.
Goku didn't fought against guys like Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Freeza Minions and Freeza himself at the same age.
That's a darn cool poster!
AKingNamedPaul
I am Homie
Made my day a bit brighter
Solid Sora
Member
But it's been firmly established that SSJ3 was a bad transformation that tired Goku out during the course of a match. He even makes a point of it to Caulifla that the bulky form has poor endurance but suggests she can go SSJ3 one day. It's just completely nonsensical. Goku never goes SSJ3 anymore and always goes SSB after SSJ2 because SSJ3 is objectively a terrible transformation to use. It just makes no sense why he'd suggest it to her.
Yeah the less we see of U6, the better. It's a shame considering how well they were portrayed in the first tournament arc.
Idm Cabba and I like Caulifla's design but she is the absolute worst offender of stupid power ups that are absolutely not consistent with any sort of character building or development. So I'm growing to dislike her every time I see her on screen now.
Kale is the absolute worst of the anime tropes she's based on. Just so fucking annoying.
Cabba got trashed as a Super Saiyan against Super Saiyan Vegeta. That's a bit different from Caulifla reaching Gohan tier / Kale being stronger than Blue. Plus Cabba was a mercenary used to fighting through wars, not a member of some punk gang.
It took a while for Goku to master all those super saiyan forms. It was set to have a lot of drawbacks, now just popping it is enough to match the guy that had it for decades ?!
Hit is a new type of alien, a thousand years old, and has unique powers. Not the same. I'm not here to complain about characters being strong or getting stronger over time. You know I don't have a big issue with that (even if I wish they handled all of them better).
But in this arc, precisely, it sticks out like a sore thumb, to fall back into that, in the worst possible way, like even if you think it's "similar", it's still THE worst example of power jump, due to the lack of set up they wrote themselves into. It's terrible. And that doesn't mean the rest of Super was good on that front, certainly not, but I can't let you say it's on the same level as what just happened here.
The genius bit comes off as shallow and unearned. That's kind of thing that could maybe work on paper, but is impossible to swallow with bad execution.
The SSJ Goten Chichi thing was filler. That's not in the manga. So yes you're correct
that was typical Toei garbage, which is now ruling DBS. I have no problem with characters being strong from the start. But if they're characters that we never heard of, show up weaker, then in a matter of seconds, learn all the abilities out heroes spent years achieving, and suddenly become the strongest people in the universe....... You can see why there's a problem ?
They're not some kind of unique aliens, unique creations, unique anything, of have years and years of experience in this field (not only had they no clue this existed, they're also very young), or have unique powers / techniques. They had no special training, and no time for it either. They are just blatant copies of existing stuff. But with 0 set up. It's just baffling.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
Jiren so damn buff.
That's so confusing because she was angrily yelling SON GOKUEH the entire episode..
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Not sure if cock blocking or life saving.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
Why dont they draw the androids eyes like this instead of the MS Paint eyes?
RocknRola
Member
Cabba got trashed as a Super Saiyan against Super Saiyan Vegeta. That's a bit different from Caulifla reaching Gohan tier / Kale being stronger than Blue. Plus Cabba was a mercenary used to fighting through wars, not a member of some punk gang.
It took a while for Goku to master all those super saiyan forms. It was set to have a lot of drawbacks, now just popping it is enough to match the guy that had it for decades ?!
Hit is a new type of alien, a thousand years old, and has unique powers. Not the same. I'm not here to complain about characters being strong or getting stronger over time. You know I don't have a big issue with that (even if I wish they handled all of them better).
But in this arc, precisely, it sticks out like a sore thumb, to fall back into that, in the worst possible way, like even if you think it's "similar", it's still THE worst example of power jump, due to the lack of set up they wrote themselves into. It's terrible. And that doesn't mean the rest of Super was good on that front, certainly not, but I can't let you say it's on the same level as what just happened here.
The genius bit comes off as shallow and unearned. That's kind of thing that could maybe work on paper, but is impossible to swallow with bad execution.
The SSJ Goten Chichi thing was filler. That's not in the manga. So yes you're correct
I have no problem with characters being strong from the start. But if they're characters that we never heard of, show up weaker, then in a matter of seconds, learn all the abilities out heroes spent years achieving, and suddenly become the strongest people in the universe....... You can see why there's a problem ?
They're not some kind of unique aliens, unique creations, unique anything, of have years and years of experience in this field (not only had they no clue this existed, they're also very young), or have unique powers / techniques. They had no special training, and no time for it either. They are just blatant copies of existing stuff. But with 0 set up. It's just baffling.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
Is it really not the same? If we demand explanations to how the heroes get stronger overtime, seems fairly logical to question just how/why the villains are so strong to begin with. Again, I have no issue with it, but some people demand such clarity from the show that it does strike me as odd that they "forget" certain aspects of it...
Despite Cauli obtaining said power, Goku still toyed with her. Hell, even Kale didn't put any visible dent on Goku (though that could be Super not showing damage). Likewise, Cabba despite his new powers, still got pushed around fairly easily by Vegeta. Them having access to SSJ, despite being a fast action, didn't particularly change their outcome against people like Goku and Vegeta. They simply gained a new tool in their arsenal at the end of the day
I agree that they messed up with having to set up all these characters too fast (in hours according to the show), however if they had weeks/months they'd do the same thing. It'd just be over a longer period of time. Nothing would change, just the perception that they took longer to get there is all. And that in itself doesn't mean much when the previous shows (and this one) have shown that lenghty training sessions, over months or years =/= gains. The most blatant case perhaps was the early Android Saga. You also have Freeza and his 4 months. Gohan finally getting his Ultimate thingy again in 48h (a bit less even). Vegeta training in the Time Chamber (Black Goku arc) and not making *that* much progress. Sure he dominated Black for a bit, but it didn't last long.
If anything the theme now seems to be "it's how you train" not "how long you train" to get there.
As for the bold bit, the plot didn't require him to be that strong, is all. You couldn't possibly have Gohan be like kid Goku (in power/progress) versus Nappa for example. It was one sided enough as it was lol
Yes thank you. SSJ is real weebooism. Its just Super Saiyan or SS. In English there is no J or jin.That's the name everyone use, so..
Also, SSJ is weebooism
Tbh the biggest power scale problem was Roshi defeating Tien like nothing were during Z Roshi is saibaman tier and Tien is waaaay more powerful even just during the saiyan saga without mentioning later parts. Also Roshi doesn't even train and Tien is constantly training(he even opened a school as in super).
Thats whats sad about super, in Z you can make some theories with things that aren't explained (Goten being born after Goku was SSJ and ChiChi training him everyday with little love) while in super things just happens
Thats whats sad about super, in Z you can make some theories with things that aren't explained (Goten being born after Goku was SSJ and ChiChi training him everyday with little love) while in super things just happens
That's the name everyone use, so..
Also, SSJ is weebooism
Latin American dub had SSJ, don't hate.
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