I'm curious. How did you arrive at the conclusion that pirating the game is a proper course of action?
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EA refuses to refund user for Sim City and then threatens a ban if they chargeback
- Thread starter IcyRhythms
- Start date
I'm curious. How did you arrive at the conclusion that pirating the game is a proper course of action?
If you buy a bottle of snake oil, at least you have two things: a bottle, and some oil. If you buy an EA game you get nothing.
I haven't seen any people outright defend always-online DRM in this thread. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that defends it, especially for a single-player game. Then again, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the refund policy, its legality, and the incident described by the OP.
And this policy is NOT unique to EA. I'll quote an earlier post:
Any place would. Steam ToS:
Team Filler
Member
Not true! You have access to their service! That doesn't mean that you can access their service, but merely the possibility exists for you to access it.
My friend...
Person X has item.
Person Y compensates Person X for the use of said item.
Person X misrepresented the capabilities of item--it is non-functioning.
Person Y requests a refund, since the item they paid for is not the item they received.
Person X refuses.
Person Y deserves what they paid for.
Thus, piracy would be morally defensible.
I'm guessing that's the train of logic.
Chie Satonaka
Member
There have been people in this thread that are saying basically to suck it up and deal with it, and others who are defending the no chargeback policy. I can't remember the exact post and I'm too lazy to go back and find it, but someone was actually talking about EA's expenses if multiple people started doing this.
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CORPORATIONS?!?!
This.
I think that's standard practice when a customer threatens to call the bank to refund/block a transaction. Wasn't there an email from a steam rep threatening a guy to do the same floating aorund?
"Of course we can always go ahead and ban your account, locking away all your steam games... do you want us to go ahead and do that?" /paraphrase
I don't exactly recall what the context was, don't quote me on it.
ThaiGrocer
Member
Hook up a rep to a giant binder full of response trees, rinse, repeat, and this is what you get.
Except you're not a paying customer if you get a chargeback.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Someone gets a hold of your credit card info and buys a whole bunch of stuff on steam. You get a credit card bill showing all these wonderful things you didn't buy for yourself. You call the bank and dispute the charges. In response Valve suspends the account in question.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
I think you're thinking about this from the wrong side, what if it wasn't your credit card you paid with, and that's why it was charged back?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Steam gives refunds. You'll likely not be forced to charge back in the first place.Any place would. Steam ToS:
ThaiGrocer
Member
Once government starts threatening these companies with some sort of regulation, then maybe we'll see some kind of explanation or change.
Edit: I speak in terms of using this mechanism to refuse payment for something so crappy. But I see how they would consider it as a way to stop fraud by an unauthorized credit card user. There's probably a lack of granularity here that needs to be addressed.
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8360-wejc-2625#refund
That's not what their support site says.
Unfortunately, from personal experience, the vast majority of credit card chargebacks in online games are clearly fraudulent. However, it's nearly impossible to combat them even if you know they're fraudulent.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
You can legally do a chargeback and they can legally torch your account for it.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Except they do in certain situations (WarZ). They won't include it as part of their SSA because they want the right to refuse refund as well.
Right, this is exactly what EA is doing with Origin. It's a nearly identical policy.
Not always. "Sorry, you ran GTAIV, so you won't be able to return this game."
No, I opened the EXE, hung in the main menu for a bit, and then the game crashed and died on me.
Worst $50 I spent with Valve.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Actually that isn't true. Subscribe agreements may not hold up in court. One reason I assume EA and Valve changed their policies was to avoid confrontation in court where the courts may have forced them to be even more pro consumer when faced with chargebacks, etc.
baphomet
Member
It's all right there is the TOS that you agreed to unfortunately. It's their service. They can do whatever they want sadly. However, selling a non functioning product and not issuing refunds is something they can't do.
People wanting refunds for this should be going above Origin/EA customer service and be filing complaints with the BBB and other consumer protection agencies. A nice influx of 10,000's of these will send the message we all want them to hear.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
If you have to take the matter to court to get recompense then you've pretty much lost already.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Not really. Again, many of these TOS's haven't been challenged in court. I wouldn't be surprised if Valve and EA believed that as we enter a more digital world and more and more of their customers build up significant libraries that eventually their policy would be challenged in court. To head that off, they changed their policy to placate their customers in a way that makes the most sense.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
No one is going to lawyer up to save their Origin account and it shouldn't be necessary to do so. Class action litigation has also been watered down. American consumer rights in the digital space are abysmal in general.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
You don't think there is someone out there that would sue to make sure they have access to the games they have purchased? You haven't been paying attention to the legal landscape of the U.S. People sue for much less. Also, many including myself have more than 1000 games purchased on Steam. If I were to be locked out of those games due to an issue with a future purchase you better believe I would sue.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
I think you're underestimating what some people are willing to do when they feel they've been wronged. Most people wouldn't, sure.
Bullshit. Most of TOS including Velve and EA are useless.
Unstoppable Lionheart
Banned
I hate it when random nobodies talk like they are lawyers.
Just because it's written down and you "Agreed to it" (and let's face it, you didn't really have a choice in the matter if you wanted it) doesn't make it legal. They can't do "whatever they want".
If you are not a lawyer or at least in law school, then you really need to keep your mouth shut. This isn't just to you, it's to all fake lawyers out there.
That is precisely what they are, they are hired professionals paid to represent the company.
Threatening chargeback should warrant a ban? You're more anti-consumer than EA! They only dish out bans if you do go ahead and actually request a chargeback. You on the other hand, would directly ban for a chargeback threat. Like a badass. They should hire you!
Oh if they intend to do something about it, eventually, then it's all ok.
That was poor wording on my part.
Are you a lawyer?
This kind of ToS clauses are generally binding in pretty much every western jurisdiction. In fact, the clause may not even be necessary in e.g. EU because distance selling directive (Directive 97/7/EC) defines when and under what conditions the consumer has the right to cancel or rescind the contract. Unless a law or a contract term stipulates otherwise, the buyer has no right to return a product, at least initially (the seller first has the right to provide a non-defective one or to repair the original). It's certainly possible that the ECJ will later elaborate more on these rights, but as it is the ToS clause is perfectly legal and enforceable. I think the directive sets the minimum level of protection, but I believe no EU country provides wider protection than the directive, perhaps Germany aside. In fact, the specific clause, as it applies to EU, uses the same terminology as the directive.
cpp_is_king
Member
Eh, im usually not on the same page as NeoGAF when it comes to EA bashing, but definitely think they should be offering refunds to those who want them.
The chargeback thing is pretty standard, but theres no reason they should be denying refunds
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Suing EA for banning your account after a chargeback seems more like a fantasy than a rational plan of action, but I'd be interested in hearing a lawyer's take on it. It seems like the odds are stacked in EA's favor if the matter is to be decided in court. Fighting a court battle against a huge corporation isn't quick or cheap even if you're legally in the right. They're better equipped for lengthy litigation.
Which is why the government has traditionally stepped in to provide consumer protection. But I don't know of any laws that kick in to protect you if EA bans your ass after you do a chargeback. If you know of any then now's the time to talk about them.
michaelius
Banned
Then why he bought anything made by EA ?
50$ or 60$ is small price to pay for lifetime lesson to stay away from Origin.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
So you believe EA/Valve changed their policy just to be nice and pro consumer?
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
What are the changes you're referring to and how do they pertain to the current discussion regarding chargeback related bans?
But because EA, Steam, etc. are such assholes it's often the ONLY step available to consumers. If they don't like chargebacks they should improve their fucking policies to avoid them.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Before April of last year EA and Valve would lock their customers out of their account and all of their purchased games. The account would be locked. Now you have access to all of your games excepted the one you did a chargeback on though on Origin you cant play online multi while on Steam you can but cant buy any new games or access community features.
Yeah, it sucks for this guy.
and it sucks about simcity going down the drain
But didn't we all kind of expected this to happen? It sucks that if you want to boycott EA you can't buy your favourite IP's anymore, but it kind of is the only way to make a stand.
Because being voted Worst Company of the USA didn't help, people just should stop buying their products.
I don't think EA gives a rats ass about anyone thinks of them, because they are still making so much money of the same people who claim to hate them.
Once again: yes it sucks that IPs are going down the drain, but it isn't like it wasn't avoidable or anything.
and it sucks about simcity going down the drain
But didn't we all kind of expected this to happen? It sucks that if you want to boycott EA you can't buy your favourite IP's anymore, but it kind of is the only way to make a stand.
Because being voted Worst Company of the USA didn't help, people just should stop buying their products.
I don't think EA gives a rats ass about anyone thinks of them, because they are still making so much money of the same people who claim to hate them.
Once again: yes it sucks that IPs are going down the drain, but it isn't like it wasn't avoidable or anything.
Anyway, this is the customer service enforcing their standard policy, even though this is likely exceptional circumstances, which is the requirement, at least on Origin, for ever getting a refund for a digital product. It's the management's fault, not that of customer service. Seems like a typical lack of communication situation, or just incompetence, because even the management should understand that not refunding under these circumstances isn't smart.
What's interesting about 97/7/EC is that it also mentioned this, which is pretty much what EA did and what the guy in the OP is referring to: "Where a supplier fails to perform his side of the contract on the grounds that the goods or services ordered are unavailable, the consumer must be informed of this situation and must be able to obtain a refund of any sums he has paid as soon as possible and in any case within 30 days."
My PSN account was hacked around two years ago. I spent hours on the phone with Sony, who stated that if I did chargeback my account would be banned. The customer service representative would not budge from this position. The same thing happened on my Xbox Live account and Microsoft were a lot more helpful.
eBay is full of people buying items and then filing a chargeback with the credit card company. I've had it happen three times now.
eBay is full of people buying items and then filing a chargeback with the credit card company. I've had it happen three times now.