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Earthquake in Japan Magnitude 9.0 (Japan ups nuke crisis to lvl7)

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F

FlashFlooder

Member
_Xenon_ said:
No, their government is not doing their job. At this time it doesn't matter what caused this or which company should be blamed. At this time the most important thing for Japanese government to do is to stop the radiation spreading as soon as possible, to actually protect their people you know. Instead, they just stand there and let a retarded company (which happens to own quite a chunk of govt's debts btw) to keep hiding shit and dumping radiative water into sea. Seriously where is their army at the moment? Aren't they supposed to have the 3rd biggest military budget in the world?
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Suppose you get the army to show up, what would you have them do?

I understand people need someone to point the finger at, but TEPCO is really the only organization equipped to manage this event at this point in time. Calling them retarded is, well, retarded. No one knows the extent of the damage they are trying to recover from, so to try and make a judgment on their response at this point is silly.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
_Xenon_ said:
See how those Russians did it. Yes it was crazy but at least they get the job done.
Click to expand...

So you're satisfied with the results the Soviet Union obtained?

I guess we have different definitions of retarded. I would call just about every step the USSR took (or failed to take) during Chernobyl retarded.
 
P

pestul

Member
MadraptorMan said:
Anyone have any thoughts on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rGiHdmsfUI

My gut reaction is that this is just someone trying to stoke the fires of sensationalism, but I have no idea how those sensors work so I was hoping someone here would be able to debunk it or dismiss it or whatever.
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Interesting, on close examination of the sensitivity at on the switch, it appears to say mSv/uSV. I wonder if the point left of the decimal is mSv? Don't know why the thing would make a racket otherwise.

EDIT: Yeah nm, that would be mSv anyway. :p
 
X

_Xenon_

Banned
FlashFlooder said:
So you're satisfied with the results the Soviet Union obtained?
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Yes as long as they kept it in control (I'm not talking about the hiding shit for 3 days part though). At this time nobody knows how long it will last or even if it can get better. You know keep pouring water at the site won't fix anything.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
-viper- said:
I fucking it knew it.

They're not going to stop this. Eventually the radiation will spread all over Japan.
Click to expand...
I see the phone case has had its effect. Mental deterioration and paranoia are among the first symptoms of radiation poisoning. Watch out for hair and nail loss.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
pestul said:
Interesting, on close examination of the sensitivity at on the switch, it appears to say mSv/uSV. I wonder if the point left of the decimal is mSv? Don't know why the thing would make a racket otherwise.

EDIT: Yeah nm, that would be mSv anyway. :p
Click to expand...

no, it says mREM/hr, which is a totally different scale. The point to the left of the decimal is uSV/hr, which is ridiculously tiny. And that thing is not making a racket, the sound those things make when you're REALLY getting dosed is much much scarier.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
_Xenon_ said:
Yes as long as they kept it in control (I'm not talking about the hiding shit for 3 days part though). At this time nobody knows how long it will last or even if it can get better. You know keep pouring water at the site won't fix anything.
Click to expand...

So what is your proposed solution?

It can absolutely get better. Pouring water at the site for long enough opens up other avenues for dismantling and disposing of the fuel safely, or repairing the necessary equipment to maintain the plant in a stable condition.
 
P

pestul

Member
FlashFlooder said:
no, it says mREM/hr, which is a totally different scale. The point to the left of the decimal is uSV/hr, which is ridiculously tiny.
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Yeah, it seems to be a very low calibrated detector. It certainly gives a disproportionately loud alarm sound for such a low level lol. Guy is in asshole for doing that. You could probably get 6 micros holding it next to a banana.
 
Y

Yaweee

Member
pestul said:
Yeah, it seems to be a very low calibrated detector. It certainly gives a disproportionately loud alarm sound for such a low level lol. Guy is in asshole for doing that. You could probably get 6 micros holding it next to a banana.
Click to expand...

You wouldn't get much from a banana with a detector like that. The issue is that your body needs potassium, which is in bananas, but there's no way to separate out the radioactive isotopes. Your body will use it and bind regardless of whether it is radioactive or not, and some of the radioactive isotopes that stay in your body will emit while they're there. The bananas themselves have a very low count in terms of Becquerels.

Radiation detectors usually have many calibration settings, as you want different scales and indicators for various sources or uses. There's nothing really asshole-ish about it, as he does show the relative radiation levels between the different areas without clarifying the source. Concrete is at least slightly radioactive, but I don't think that much. If people get scared, its because they don't understand the relative levels of radiation being discussed.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
_Xenon_ said:
They should have entombed the site with concrete by using this:
http://www.sanygroup.com/group/en-us/media/25810_for_special_list_text_content.htm

Actually my source said Japan have ordered another 30 of those bumpers but not sure when they are ready.
Click to expand...

And just let the fuel burn and risk it seeping into the ground and water tables? That's not an acceptable solution, it's a last resort.

People hear about entombing the plant and think that's an easy, obvious fix. It is not something that is desirable, it would very likely cause more damage than is currently being done. When you do this, you are effectively throwing in the towel because you lose any and all ability to take any further action.

Did you know it is suspected that the fuel under Chernobyl's "tomb" is still molten? 30 years later. And I say suspected because no one can even get close enough to gather enough data to make an educated guess.
 
P

pestul

Member
Yaweee said:
You wouldn't get much from a banana with a detector like that. The issue is that your body needs potassium, which is in bananas, but there's no way to separate out the radioactive isotopes. Your body will use it and bind regardless of whether it is radioactive or not, and some of the radioactive isotopes that stay in your body will emit while they're there. The bananas themselves have a very low count in terms of Becquerels.

Radiation detectors usually have many calibration settings, as you want different scales and indicators for various sources or uses. There's nothing really asshole-ish about it, as he does show the relative radiation levels between the different areas without clarifying the source. Concrete is at least slightly radioactive, but I don't think that much. If people get scared, its because they don't understand the relative levels of radiation being discussed.
Click to expand...
Well yeah, just indicating there are probably lots of things you could hold that next to that would drive up the reading due to proximity. Maybe not quite to those levels, but is it indicative of anything other than just another alarmist Youtube video? (which according to the likes/dislikes has had an impact on people).
 
Upsidedown Fuji

Upsidedown Fuji

Member
Regarding the comment about the Russians just getting shit done by any means possible, they were the Soviet Union at that time so they had lives to throw away as far as they were concerned. Russia has always spent human lives in massive proportions wheter its been in war or man made disaster.

Also just their frantic need to get things done, unnecessarily sent hundreds of reservests to dig a long, deep tunnel below the reactor where the radiation levels were just as lethal as on the roof where they ended up tossing radioactive shit off into the exposed reactor by hand. That tunnel was completed but abandoned because another better plan was agreed on.

So let's hold off on any bright ideas of just charging in thinking things will just magically be solved by throwing bodies at it. Especially if those bodies are conscripts who are obligated to do whatever their superiors order them to do. Most working at or near the plant are regular civilian workers and salaried employees.

I'm as pissed off as anyone else living in Japan about TEPCO's neglegence and the government's reluctance to push TEPCO to hunker down and admit failure so they can get help from outside sources. I wish the media in Japan pushed harder to get the government and TEPCO to really fess up to what was really going on instead of leaving the rest of the world community hanging and grasping for any ideas of what was really going on.

Hindsight's a bitch but that's all we can do now is talk about the past. We don't have a time traveling De Lorean to fix this. :(
 
Upsidedown Fuji

Upsidedown Fuji

Member
FlashFlooder said:
And just let the fuel burn and risk it seeping into the ground and water tables? That's not an acceptable solution, it's a last resort.

People hear about entombing the plant and think that's an easy, obvious fix. It is not something that is desirable, it would very likely cause more damage than is currently being done. When you do this, you are effectively throwing in the towel because you lose any and all ability to take any further action.

Did you know it is suspected that the fuel under Chernobyl's "tomb" is still molten? 30 years later. And I say suspected because no one can even get close enough to gather enough data to make an educated guess.
Click to expand...

Also Chernoblyl's tomb was only a temporary measure. It was supposed to be re-fortified many years ago. It's still a very big threat if that tomb were to fail. It wasn't built to last forever.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
Upsidedown Fuji said:
Regarding the comment about the Russians just getting shit done by any means possible, they were the Soviet Union at that time so they had lives to throw away as far as they were concerned. Russia has always spent human lives in massive proportions wheter its been in war or man made disaster.

Also just their frantic need to get things done, unnecessarily sent hundreds of reservests to dig a long, deep tunnel below the reactor where the radiation levels were just as lethal as on the roof where they ended up tossing radioactive shit off into the exposed reactor by hand. That tunnel was completed but abandoned because another better plan was agreed on.

So let's hold off on any bright ideas of just charging in thinking things will just magically be solved by throwing bodies at it. Especially if those bodies are conscripts who are obligated to do whatever their superiors order them to do. Most working at or near the plant are regular civilian workers and salaried employees.

I'm as pissed off as anyone else living in Japan about TEPCO's neglegence and the government's reluctance to push TEPCO to hunker down and admit failure so they can get help from outside sources. I wish the media in Japan pushed harder to get the government and TEPCO to really fess up to what was really going on instead of leaving the rest of the world community hanging and grasping for any ideas of what was really going on.

Hindsight's a bitch but that's all we can do now is talk about the past. We don't have a time traveling De Lorean to fix this. :(
Click to expand...

Very well put. I think there will be a lot of pressure on TEPCO once this crisis is behind them, and the truth will ultimately come out. Those screaming for justice right now need to just chill. As negligent and inept as they may have been, they are doing their best to take care of the situation right now.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Upsidedown Fuji said:
Also Chernoblyl's tomb was only a temporary measure. It was supposed to be re-fortified many years ago. It's still a very big threat if that tomb were to fail. It wasn't built to last forever.
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that building on the second level tomb thing had just started or was about to start very soon.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
Askia47 said:
Radiation Charts from around the Fukushima Plant as well as other areas such as Tokyo, Gunma, Miyagi, Iwate, Fukushima, and Tochigi Prefectures. Also shows drinking water contamination and earthquake rates.
http://fleep.com/earthquake/
Click to expand...

very nice site, thanks for posting.

Purkake4 said:
I was under the impression that building on the second level tomb thing had just started or was about to start very soon.
Click to expand...

It's been "about to start" for a long time now. They've hit a lot of snags. Things don't happen too quickly in this industry :-/
 
J

Jack Random

Member
just a perspective moment from the IAEA site:

"NISA estimates that the amount of radioactive material released to the atmosphere is approximately 10% of the 1986 Chernobyl accident, which is the only other nuclear accident to have been rated a Level 7 event."
 
Upsidedown Fuji

Upsidedown Fuji

Member
I am relieved that the past couple days haven't caused any new disasters for Japan. Every time a tsunami warning is given, I find myself praying that Fukushima isn't messed up further or that no more cities get swept away by a big black wall of water.

Hopefully the worst of this disaster is behind us. If it weren't for the Fukushima crisis, Japan would probably be a lot further a long in cleaning up and rebuilding harbor areas. :(
 
J

jcm

Member
I think there's a lot of confusion about the increase. It wasn't an announcement that things suddenly got worse. It was an admission that thongs have been worse than originally reported since the beginning.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
jcm said:
I think there's a lot of confusion about the increase. It wasn't an announcement that things suddenly got worse. It was an admission that thongs have been worse than originally reported since the beginning.
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agreed.

Although I think everyone knows thongs are bad news, whether they like to admit it or not. ;)
 
Garcia

Garcia

Member
Jack Random said:
just a perspective moment from the IAEA site:

"NISA estimates that the amount of radioactive material released to the atmosphere is approximately 10% of the 1986 Chernobyl accident, which is the only other nuclear accident to have been rated a Level 7 event."
Click to expand...

I don't see what kind of perspective you guys are using but to me 10% of Chernobyl is already pretty bad news. The fact that due to the disaster there's now a radius of 20km where neither crops or livestock produce will be consumed for years after speaks for itself.

The radioactive plumes may not cause any harm at all to the rest of the world, but it has done quite a lot of damage to the vecinities of Fukushima.
 
J

Jack Random

Member
Garcia said:
I don't see what kind of perspective you guys are using but to me 10% of Chernobyl is already pretty bad news. The fact that due to the disaster there's now a radius of 20km where neither crops or livestock produce will be consumed for years after speaks for itself.

The radioactive plumes may not cause any harm at all to the rest of the world, but it has done quite a lot of damage to the vecinities of Fukushima.
Click to expand...
I dont think anyone is debating this disaster's effect on Fukushima prefecture. we're talking about the larger area.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
Garcia said:
The fact that due to the disaster there's now a radius of 20km where neither crops or livestock produce will be consumed for years after speaks for itself.
Click to expand...

This 'fact' remains to be seen. Evacuation zone != contaminated zone.
 
L

LiveFromKyoto

Member
FlashFlooder said:
So what is your proposed solution?

It can absolutely get better. Pouring water at the site for long enough opens up other avenues for dismantling and disposing of the fuel safely, or repairing the necessary equipment to maintain the plant in a stable condition.
Click to expand...

No, if we're Looking at what's actually happening it's opening up avenues for it to get a hell of a lot worse, which is what it keeps doing.

Look, I'm as much in favour of the "let's stay sane" approach as anyone but I think there might be a bit too much "move along, nothing to see here" happening in this thread. This is a severely damaged old nuclear reactor at level 7 in the middle of a zone suffering repeated earthquakes, the reoccurrance of which has actually significantly increased as a result of plate movement. It really is time to admit this situation has gotten very, very serious; whether it's exactly the same as Chernobyl right now is irrelevant.
 
F

FlashFlooder

Member
LiveFromKyoto said:
No, if we're Looking at what's actually happening it's opening up avenues for it to get a hell of a lot worse, which is what it keeps doing.

Look, I'm as much in favour of the "let's stay sane" approach as anyone but I think there might be a bit too much "move along, nothing to see here" happening in this thread. This is a severely damaged old nuclear reactor at level 7 in the middle of a zone suffering repeated earthquakes, the reoccurrance of which has actually significantly increased as a result of plate movement. It really is time to admit this situation has gotten very, very serious; whether it's exactly the same as Chernobyl right now is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

OK, since you say it keeps getting worse: what exactly has gotten worse in the past, say, 2 weeks? In terms of the condition at the plant.
What sort of avenues do you see opening up that could make things worse?

"nuclear reactor at level 7" is a nonsensical and meaningless statement. There is nothing different about this nuclear reactor than yesterday when it was classified a level 5 incident (other than the fact that it's 1 day closer to being in a stable condition).

The time to admit this situation was very, very serious was March 11th. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that "nothing is happening".
 
Y

Yaweee

Member
LiveFromKyoto said:
No, if we're Looking at what's actually happening it's opening up avenues for it to get a hell of a lot worse, which is what it keeps doing.

Look, I'm as much in favour of the "let's stay sane" approach as anyone but I think there might be a bit too much "move along, nothing to see here" happening in this thread. This is a severely damaged old nuclear reactor at level 7 in the middle of a zone suffering repeated earthquakes, the reoccurrance of which has actually significantly increased as a result of plate movement. It really is time to admit this situation has gotten very, very serious; whether it's exactly the same as Chernobyl right now is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The current situation is so much better than it was when the pumps weren't even working. I don't really see how that is debatable. Every day that passes with proper cooling brings the reactor temperature and pressure down and brings it closer to cold shutdown. "At level 7" doesn't really describe the status of the reactor itself, just the overall incident and what kind of responses need to be taken with regards to cleanup and prevention. There are still issues with leaks, and that is a very serious problem, but that is nothing compared to the threat of breached reactor vessels, hydrogen explosions, or potentially exposed fuel rods.

The "Level 7" classification doesn't really change anything; Japan was already ordering pretty significant evacuations and placing restrictions on farming and fishing.
 
T

tokkun

Member
FlashFlooder said:
Nice, level-headed assessment of the situation. Considering the differences, I still can't imagine why this would be in the same category as Chernobyl.
Anyway, thanks for posting.
Click to expand...

The end of the BBC's comparison to Chernobyl states:

Officials say radiation leaks are continuing and could eventually exceed those at Chernobyl.
Click to expand...
 
M

Mik2121

Member
For you guys living in Japan or at least being able to read Japanese and know the AC commercials, should read this, is pretty hilarious:

http://bakadamon6724.blog55.fc2.com/blog-entry-4.html

One guy (and his friend) decide to say hello to everybody because of what the CM says (挨拶をするたび、友達が増える) but things don't go the way they expected... :p
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
sigh... cant help but remember all the people downplaying this out of interest in nuclear energy rather than concern for the scope of the accident.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
tokkun said:
The end of the BBC's comparison to Chernobyl states:
Click to expand...

Officials say radiation leaks are continuing and could eventually exceed those at Chernobyl.
Click to expand...

Yeah but Chernobyl's fallout was what made it SOOOOOOO bad.. this is bad and could be just as bad, but at least the fallout should be much much less..
 
P

pestul

Member
Blackace said:
Yeah but Chernobyl's fallout was what made it SOOOOOOO bad.. this is bad and could be just as bad, but at least the fallout should be much much less..
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As long as one of these melted or partially melted cores doesn't hit the water table.
 
F

Fireye

Member
Pandaman said:
sigh... cant help but remember all the people downplaying this out of interest in nuclear energy rather than concern for the scope of the accident.
Click to expand...

To be fair, we've received flawed information all along from TEPCO. Even with this disaster, I think that Nuclear is the only viable ready to roll solution to replace coal. The fact that the situation is so contained even with such a flawed old design, after a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami, is the epitomy of a safe power source.

Yes, there are risks. No, I don't think the risks of Nuclear (especially current/next generation designs) are worse than the damage caused to people and the environment when compared to other mass power generation sources.

(Love renewables, but so few of them are "green", usually involve either heavy capital AND many toxic materials to manufacture.)
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
How many people have died of accidents related to the plant? Yeah, none.
Click to expand...
if that's your metric for disaster i wont bother to convince you of its shortsightedness.
 
A

Atlagev

Member
Mik2121 said:
For you guys living in Japan or at least being able to read Japanese and know the AC commercials, should read this, is pretty hilarious:

http://bakadamon6724.blog55.fc2.com/blog-entry-4.html

One guy (and his friend) decide to say hello to everybody because of what the CM says (挨拶をするたび、友達が増える) but things don't go the way they expected... :p
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha! That's awesome... I wonder if that really happened. Even if it didn't, that's pretty hilarious.
 
L

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
Pandaman said:
sigh... cant help but remember all the people downplaying this out of interest in nuclear energy rather than concern for the scope of the accident.
Click to expand...
We are just trying to balance a bit the rhetoric against nuclear energy.
 
S

scottnak

Member
Mik2121 said:
For you guys living in Japan or at least being able to read Japanese and know the AC commercials, should read this, is pretty hilarious:

http://bakadamon6724.blog55.fc2.com/blog-entry-4.html

One guy (and his friend) decide to say hello to everybody because of what the CM says (挨拶をするたび、友達が増える) but things don't go the way they expected... :p
Click to expand...

Hah. Awesome. At least he got a こんにちワン! I'd be satisfied with just that.
Though i like the final result he gathered from all this :p
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
Pandaman said:
if that's your metric for disaster i wont bother to convince you of its shortsightedness.
Click to expand...
Look if you choice to remain ignorant of the scale of the death and destruction caused by the Earthquake and Tsunami vs the accident at the power plant, then you really need to start looking at the bigger picture. All things considered I would rather have been near the plant vs being in Sendai the day of the quake.

JasonMCG said:
Yeah, that we know of. Haven't some of the Fukushima 50 died already?
Click to expand...
No, none of them have.
 
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