Support NeoGAF

[Korey]

Facts:


Victim

• Age: 17
• High school junior student
• Black
• Carrying: Ice Tea, Skittles
• What he was doing prior to altercation: Getting candy for younger brother; minding his own business
• What he did during altercation: Got shot and died

Shooter

• 26
• College student, self-appointed captain of The Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood watch
• White
• Carrying: Gun
• What he was doing prior to altercation: Stalking someone he found suspicious in his car (for reasons we can only speculate on), calling the police, told by police not to follow guy he is trailing, follows him anyway, gets out of car to engage him
• What he did during altercation: Shot and killed someone
• What he did after altercation: Claimed self defense

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, tough one!! Too bad Sherlock Holmes isn't around to help solve this case! Wouldn't want to be on that jury!

 

[DY_nasty]

Nope, i actually want your opinion on the matter, if not I would have made them rhetorical or loaded in nature. The fact that you're dodging them leads me to believe you're playing up some willful ignorance.

He doesn't have an opinion. He's just running in DA circles to pass the time.

 

[Devolution]

None. But why did he approach him?

Well you see...

oh wait hold up some black kid is walking up my street, be right back gotta call the popos.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Does anyone in here really believe that getting your ass kicked means you can shoot the person?

Well there is a scenario where the gun is out and there is a struggle for control of it, in which case the person losing the fight might logically feel that if they don't shoot, the other person will take it and shoot them instead.

On the other hand that puts more emphasis on it being his fault that there was a gun involved to begin with. The law already looks at that kind of thing as something people assume responsibility for when they own/carry a firearm.

 

[KHarvey16]

Nope, i actually want your opinion on the matter, if not I would have made them rhetorical or loaded in nature. The fact that you're dodging them leads me to believe you're playing up some willful ignorance.

My position is simple: this is not a straightforward case and we do not know if this was a homicide or a justified act of self defense. Either is plausible given what we DO in fact know.

 

[Violet_0]

I'm a big pro gun person too. This comments makes pro gun people look scary.

glad I'm not the only one

 

[Princess Carl]

Where have I ever said that it is?

This is vigilante action. That's what the majority are talking about and why most are mad that he isn't in jail for it. The rest can sort itself out - while he's in jail. We all know the guy thought the kid was suspicious because he was entirely too black while at night. That's got nothing to do with the actions taken though.

What vigilante action, walking up to him? Where are these extra details you keep coming up with?

To clarify:

Vigilante justice in the form of following/walking up to somebody suspicious is not illegal and is not a hate crime.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I'm a big pro gun person too. This comments makes pro gun people look scary.

I will not support someone trying to do physical harm on me when I've done nothing wrong, especially when I will probably be the one in the hospital, and considering people's tendency here in Miami to continue fighting someone even if they've lost consciousness. A fist fight can quickly become attempted murder down here. That is how I view that. I am the sort to avoid conflict at all costs.

 

[DY_nasty]

Neighborhood Watch goes renegade with gun and against suggestions from police (and all NW work with police)

I know what you're thinking... but its definitely NOT what you think

 

[Fenderputty]

The police incident report noted the man was bleeding and had grass stains on the back of his shirt. The eyewitness described the fight in the same way. If the evidence supports this scenario it's possible his actions were justified.

Blood and some grass stains happen when I get tackled playing a rough game of flag football. What you described above is not a beating worth shooting someone over. Period.

I don't care about legality ... the guy was clearly in the wrong in my book and I hope he does have to face some form of time.

 

[apana]

The sad thing is when these sorts of incidents would happen with police I could sort of understand why people rushed to their defense. Now it's not even the police, any old person can come upto you to blow your head off if he has a Batman complex.

 

[KHarvey16]

Neighborhood Watch goes renegade with gun and against suggestions from police (and all NW work with police)

I know what you're thinking... but its definitely NOT what you think

Cite for us what he is guilty of in your scenario. It should be very easy given how obvious you believe it is. Point us to the relevant laws in the state of Florida.

 

[Mr. Patch]

I wouldn't be surprised if the kid fought him because there was a "suspicious" guy following him in a car. That's just me, though.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Blood and some grass stains happen when I get tackled playing a rough game of flag football. What you described above is not a beating worth shooting someone over. Period.

I don't care about legality ... the guy was clearly in the wrong in my book and I hope he does have to face some form of time.

I would be truly shocked if he faces any time. At the very worst he may see a few months TOPS. The greater crime was being black in a gated community.

 

[JGS]

Well off white guy shooting a black kid is likely lawyered up. Still, it seems as if the police don't want to deal with it. I understand why he isn't literally arrested yet. I don't understand how it's not being discussed in those terms.

The family is smart enough to frame it as it's the guy's fault or 911's fault. At this point, I see it as both.

*sigh* I wish everything was like Law & Order. Those guys don't care how rich you are.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

It doesn't matter if it was self defense or not,this shooting should have never happened.

 

[DY_nasty]

What vigilante action, walking up to him? Where are these extra details you keep coming up with?

To clarify:

Vigilante justice in the form of following/walking up to somebody suspicious is not illegal and is not a hate crime.

Neighborhood Watch Batman was told not approach him by the police - and all Neighborhood Watch are in regular contact with the local police department. He ignores that, decides to approach the kid WHO WAS NOT MID-RAPE, and gets out of his car to confront this 'suspicious character'.

He's in the wrong.

 

[commedieu]

I guess the hasn't been arrested in over a month part keeps escaping you. Why isn't Obama sending the FBI and National Guard to his house? After all a racially motivated hate crime murder has been committed in cold blood and he WALKS FREE.

quit assuming





So he racially profiled with his gun and shot the suspicious black kid because out of the 5 or 6 kids around him he was the only black one?

And no, "Racial Profiling" in the form of walking up to someone and confronting/talking to them is not a hate crime. I'm sorry.

He isn't a Cop. Our job is to call the police & share the information. On that basis alone, its not an assumption to see that its someone taking the law into their own hands.

Even if the the kid, on his way to buy candy, decided to provoke & threaten the life of Neighborhood watch, with his bare hands and mean gestures, the man would still be placed under arrest, until its cleared up.

I would be demanding his arrest if he was a white kid as well. Citizens aren't allowed to shoot other citizens. <--- Things you shouldn't have to say in 2012.

I would be truly shocked if he faces any time. At the very worst he may see a few months TOPS. The greater crime was being black in a gated community.

The going rate for shooting handcuffed black people is 1 year. Not sure if its changed since 2009.

 

[Violet_0]

I will not support someone trying to do physical harm on me when I've done nothing wrong, especially when I will probably be the one in the hospital, and considering people's tendency here in Miami to continue fighting someone even if they've lost consciousness. A fist fight can quickly become attempted murder down here. That is how I view that. I am the sort to avoid conflict at all costs.

If I had your mindset and was carrying a gun with me at all times, then you could probably lock me up for being a serial killer at this point.

 

[Vermillion]

What evidence did the captain have that the kid did something wrong?

None. But why did he approach him?

Either way the captain is wrong - I have no idea why the captain approached him. It seems reasonable to assume that it was because he was black, but it can't be certain.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, tough one!! Too bad Sherlock Holmes isn't around to help solve this case! Wouldn't want to be on that jury!

The thing is that if you're concerned with the real truth, all the circumstantial details in the world can't replace the actual facts of the event. This guy could have a KKK tattoo on his forehead and a picture of the kid on his dart board, but he didn't murder him unless he murdered him. Since it's plausible that the actual events will be determined in this case, it would be a legal and moral tragedy to still base his guilt on circumstantial details.

Our laws sacrifice a lot of our ability to put away people who are "clearly" guilty in order to protect the who actually aren't. And rightfully so. This is the basis of the most legitimate argument against capital punishment.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

If I were that kid, I would be worried I was about to get attacked.

THIS.

 

[KHarvey16]

Blood and some grass stains happen when I get tackled playing a rough game of flag football. What you described above is not a beating worth shooting someone over. Period.

I don't care about legality ... the guy was clearly in the wrong in my book and I hope he does have to face some form of time.

He apparently had a bloody face and back of his head. The police felt the injuries were consistent with a situation in which lethal force was justified. Grass stains on his back are consistent with the eyewitness claiming the 17 year old was on top of the man. Being beaten around the face while in this position is clearly a scenario in which egregious bodily harm is a potential outcome. Again you can disagree with the law but if this accurately describes the scenario he could have been justified in shooting.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Kid was 70 feet away from the house man...damn. What a damn shame.

 

[childplease]

It doesn't matter if it was self defense or not,this shooting should have never happened.

Absolutely but it did.

Only thing that can be done now is to meticulously view the evidence and determine if the shooting was justified or not. If it is determined it was not then you place the appropriate sentence of the watch captain.

 

[echoshifting]

The police felt the injuries were consistent with a situation in which lethal force was justified.

Did I miss something? Where are you getting this from?

 

[I H8 Memes]

Blood and some grass stains happen when I get tackled playing a rough game of flag football. What you described above is not a beating worth shooting someone over. Period.

I don't care about legality ... the guy was clearly in the wrong in my book and I hope he does have to face some form of time.

Your book and the book that has the laws of Florida in it are not same book. Look at some of the links I posted to see just how bad this law is and how difficult it is to charge someone with murder.

That law is the only reason this is an issue at all. By that I mean that the police have to be extra vigilant in their investigation to ensure a conviction. Which they are right now. If the guy had grass stains on him then there is no doubt he got out of the car to confront the kid, so he will be charged.

The reason he hasn't been charged yet is not because of racism by the police department. It's because they have to be extra thorough with this kind of case in Florida. And once you charge someone with a crime several legal clocks start that make it more difficult to gather evidence.

 

[Log4Girlz]

He apparently had a bloody face and back of his head. The police felt the injuries were consistent with a situation in which lethal force was justified. Grass stains on his back are consistent with the eyewitness claiming the 17 year old was on top of the man. Being beaten around the face while in this position is clearly a scenario in which egregious bodily harm is a potential outcome. Again you can disagree with the law but if this accurately describes the scenario he could have been justified in shooting.

Man, if only there was some way to avoid the situation. Like...staying in the fucking car and not harassing a boy for BEING BLACK.

 

[DY_nasty]

A car pulls up on you in the middle of the night, and a guy steps out of the car and walks straight up to you.

Not threatening at all.

Sorry, this wording had me rolling, imagining the cops calling him up: "Gee, Mr. Zimmerman, we really hate to be a bother, and we know you're busy, but if it isn't too much of a dadgum inconvenience, would you terribly mind coming in to our offices again? You know, to talk about that black kid, err, incident? We just want to put this whole, ugly affair behind us..."

This is exactly what I see too.

Cite for us what he is guilty of in your scenario. It should be very easy given how obvious you believe it is. Point us to the relevant laws in the state of Florida.

Dude, you're getting old. This isn't a UFO thread. In what state can Neighborhood Watch go vigilante and not get arrested?

 

[Devolution]

There needs to be a sign on these neighborhoods, "you must be this white to enter."

 

[Shakala]

Smh at anyone trying to rationalize what the murderer did

 

[KHarvey16]

Either way the captain is wrong - I have no idea why the captain approached him. It seems reasonable to assume that it was because he was black, but it can't be certain.

So let's assume for a minute that the captain is super racist and only called it in as suspicious because the kid is black. After calling, he follows him and gets out of his car. He approaches the boy and asks him who he is, what he's doing and where he's going. This act, in your estimation, completely nullifies the man's legal authority to defend himself in the appropriate circumstances? You believe the act of questioning or approaching legally justifies a physical altercation being initiated by the 17 year old? I don't understand this argument.

 

[Princess Carl]

A car pulls up on you in the middle of the night, and a guy steps out of the car and walks straight up to you.

Not threatening at all.

This is exactly what I see too.


Dude, you're getting old. This isn't a UFO thread. In what state can Neighborhood Watch go vigilante and not get arrested?

Explain. Where did he break the law following and walking up to the kid? Because the only way your getting a murder charge is by breaking the law. Saying vigilante seven times isn't murder conviction testimony.

Smh at anyone trying to rationalize what the murderer did

I think its hilarious that people can't separate race as a motivating factor for approaching him and race as a motivating factor for killing him. Critical Thinking 101

 

[Souldriver]

Please please tell me this isn't "cased closed". Please tell me there's still an ungoing investigation going on with an arrest in the near future.

??

 

[Log4Girlz]

So let's assume for a minute that the captain is super racist and only called it in as suspicious because the kid is black. After calling, he follows him and gets out of his car. He approaches the boy and asks him who he is, what he's doing and where he's going. This act, in your estimation, completely nullifies the man's legal authority to defend himself in the appropriate circumstances? You believe the act of questioning or approaching legally justifies a physical altercation being initiated by the 17 year old? I don't understand this argument.

I can easily see how the 17 year old felt threatened and fought back in fear. Let's say it was Zimmerman who died, I think the minor would have had a more open and shut case.

Officer I'm just 17 and this man was following me in his car, then he got out of his car and was yelling at me and threatening me. We got in a scuffle...

 

[KHarvey16]

Did I miss something? Where are you getting this from?

The incident report. They released him from the station after examining him and the evidence.

Man, if only there was some way to avoid the situation. Like...staying in the fucking car and not harassing a boy for BEING BLACK.

What are the legal implications of this?

Dude, you're getting old. This isn't a UFO thread. In what state can Neighborhood Watch go vigilante and not get arrested?

What act are you describing as vigilante?

 

[Big Baybee]

KHarvey, I don't understand why you are fighting this so hard. Chief of police came out and confirmed the story the lawyer (who you said could not be trusted) told. Neighborhood watch guy has no leg to stand on here. He racially profiled a guy. Followed him. Called the police. They told him to stop following him. Continued following him. Then got out of his car in an attempt to confront this teen who had done nothing wrong. You look silly, honestly.

 

[childplease]

Smh at anyone trying to rationalize what the shooter did

Fixed that for you bud.

 

[KHarvey16]

I can easily see how the 17 year old felt threatened and fought back in fear. Let's say it was Zimmerman who died, I think the minor would have had a more open and shut case.

Officer I'm just 17 and this man was following me in his car, then he got out of his car and was yelling at me and threatening me. We got in a scuffle...

He yelled? What did he do to intimidate him?

 

[Log4Girlz]

What are the legal implications of this?

Could be construed as a hate crime.

He yelled? What did he do to intimidate him?

GEE I DON'T KNOW...FOLLOWED HIM IN A CAR, LEFT SAID CAR AND CONFRONTED HIM.

 

[DY_nasty]

Explain. Where did he break the law following and walking up to the kid? Because the only way your getting a murder charge is by breaking the law. Saying vigilante seven times isn't murder conviction testimony.




I think its hilarious that people can't separate race as a motivating factor for approaching him and race as a motivating factor for killing him. Critical Thinking 101

I'm not looking for murder!

I just love how this guy isn't arrested - and how people are trying to justify it.

 

[Devolution]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_DTtEzWnc&feature=player_detailpage#t=60s

Love this dude.

 

[echoshifting]

You believe the act of questioning or approaching legally justifies a physical altercation being initiated by the 17 year old?

How do you know this??

The incident report. They released him from the station after examining him and the evidence.

Oh, so you've seen it, then? I didn't know it was out there. Can someone link the incident report please?

For someone who has come down on people several times in this thread for making assumptions, you sure use a lot of them to prop up your arguments.

He yelled? What did he do to intimidate him?

I mean...lol.

 

[commedieu]

So let's assume for a minute that the captain is super racist and only called it in as suspicious because the kid is black. After calling, he follows him and gets out of his car. He approaches the boy and asks him who he is, what he's doing and where he's going. This act, in your estimation, completely nullifies the man's legal authority to defend himself in the appropriate circumstances? You believe the act of questioning or approaching legally justifies a physical altercation being initiated by the 17 year old? I don't understand this argument.

The police ordered him not to do anything.

He did & shot a kid.

 

[Korey]

Explain. Where did he break the law following and walking up to the kid? Because the only way your getting a murder charge is by breaking the law. Saying vigilante seven times isn't murder conviction testimony.

I think its hilarious that people can't separate race as a motivating factor for approaching him and race as a motivating factor for killing him. Critical Thinking 101

The two are intertwined. They can use what happened following up to the actual altercation as intent. This includes the part where the police tell him not to do anything and him following and walking up to the kid. So yea, all of that is relevant, murder charges don't live in some sort of vacuum.

 

[KHarvey16]

Could be construed as a hate crime.

Hate crimes are crimes motivated by hate. What crime did he commit?

The police ordered him not to do anything.

He did & shot a kid.

The police did not order him to do anything.

 

[DY_nasty]

GEE I DON'T KNOW...FOLLOWED HIM IN A CAR, LEFT SAID CAR AND CONFRONTED HIM.

Woooooooooooah

slow down cowboy

Define confront

 

[Shakala]

Fixed that for you bud.

 

[KHarvey16]

How do you know this??

Holy shit, I don't! You, however, are suggesting IT CANNOT HAPPEN! I am saying it potentially can.

Oh, so you've seen it, then? I didn't know it was out there. Can someone link the incident report please?

For someone who has come down on people several times in this thread for making an assumptions, you sure use a lot of them to prop up your arguments.

The report was cited in an article posted previously. Did you miss it?

I mean...lol.

Good argument.

 

[Fenderputty]

Your book and the book that has the laws of Florida in it are not same book. Look at some of the links I posted to see just how bad this law is and how difficult it is to charge someone with murder.

That law is the only reason this is an issue at all. By that I mean that the police have to be extra vigilant in their investigation to ensure a conviction. Which they are right now. If the guy had grass stains on him then there is no doubt he got out of the car to confront the kid, so he will be charged.

The reason he hasn't been charged yet is not because of racism by the police department. It's because they have to be extra thorough with this kind of case in Florida. And once you charge someone with a crime several legal clocks start that make it more difficult to gather evidence.

I do understand all this and did see the links. I'm more just frustrated something like this could happen and the shooter can roam free. Even more frustrated people would play devil's advocate here.

I just don't belive this guy had an moral justification to shoot the kid regardless of his legal justification. Sometims the law is wrong. Just like pot crimes and the way in which crack laws are enforced.

The kid should NOT be dead. It wasn't an accident that he did die either. Just a shame.