I think his job was as good as gone regardless.
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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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I think his job was as good as gone regardless.
slidewinder
Banned
Good. The guy's an utter bonehead.
If he wrote one word of the law, I will eat the largest corpse in his mortuary. Seems that the people that brought it ready-made for him to sponsor probably didn't explain it very well. Probably on purpose.
Neuromancer
Member
The aggressor is whoever threw the first punch or made the tackle. (I'm not saying it couldn't have been the kid but do we know?)
Aaronology
Member
I'm sorry for being a little snarky, KHarvey. I was under the impression we were just winging it. Or did I miss your post detailing how Zimmerman could claim self defense after pursuing and confronting Martin? You've been citing the law yourself.
Show us.
If they had no legally justifiable reason for chasing them(for instance an attempt to prevent them committing a forcible felony, basically acting in defense of another person), sure. But the law would still allow him to do this and claim self defense depending on the exact circumstances. There are exceptions that allow the initial aggressor to still legally claim a justified use of deadly force.
empty vessel
Member
Very, very narrow exceptions. And it's worth nothing that those exceptions are not what the non-arrest was based on. It was based on Zimmerman's story that he was unsuspectingly jumped by Martin.
CrazyDogg77
Member
Of course not nothing has been investigated that could shed Zimmerman in a negative light.
But reports are coming out that Trayvon was the one getting beaten not Zimmerman.
It's been posted a few times now.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html
Sections 776.012 and 776.041. Feel free to read all of it, there isn't much.
I bet that shit came down literally from the president. Like, serious national business.
Dahellisdat
Member
They should be able to figure out both what position he was shot from and whether or not he was beaten from an autopsy. Surely they have thought to do this and have probably already done so. Do you really know for sure that they haven't done this or are you just taking the fact that results haven't been released and assuming that means that they are doing nothing?
Reallink
Member
No we don't one way or the other. Personally, I think the evidence right now probably suggests Trayvon threw the first punch. I say that because we know Trayvon took off running, so it stands to reason his fight or flight reflex kicked in--throwing the first punch against Zimmerman out of fear. Which was perfectly reasonable on Trayvon's part and I'm not implying Trayvon was at fault in any way--just the law is black and white and this is likely how the police and prosecutors will be forced to look at it. If that is indeed how things played out (or what the evidence strongly suggests) they will probably have to go after manslaughter--that Zimmerman's reckless behavior directly resulted in Trayvon's death.
It's called Fight OR Flight for a reason. Doing both isn't likely or natural. It's not Laurel and Hardy. It's evolution. Talk about a reach.
I don't WANT Zimmerman to be guilty, I'd rather none of this shit was real. Why do you want him to be innocent?
I think given the way the police understood the situation in the beginning an argument can be made for either exception from their point of view. It was believed that Zimmerman was the one crying out for help and was pinned down by Trayvon. But regardless of their reasoning at the time, it is a likely candidate for the case the defense will make if this goes to trial.
Not true. Zimmerman was the aggressor by following and chasing down Martin and then cornering.
Supermanisdead
Member
whoever heard of "investigating?" not in my justice system.
Reallink
Member
Yea you're right, I had that correct in an edit after the fact but your quote beat me to it. I suspect his flight turned into fight after being persuaded by a youthful ego "Why am I running from this guy? I'm a grown ass man".
Holy shit. This is amazing.
Well he did say he thought Zimmerman probably killed him in a justifiable manner, so to save face?
oh and this.
Devolution
Member
She's done this before.
CrazyDogg77
Member
Or maybe it was I have to defend myself from this guy. Just a thought.
So between the guy with a history of trying to pursue and blockade nogoodniks until the police arrive, and the teenage kid who reportedly was trying to get away, the reasonable assumption is... the teenage kid got physical first? Really?
Reallink
Member
I know this is not a foreign or ridiculous concept to you, you know full well it's not always flight OR flight and can change at a moments notice for whatever reason. Maybe Zimmerman cornered him, maybe his machoness talked him into it--doesn't really matter. If these one line sarcastic quips are all you can come up with, I can only assume you agree with me on some level in your mind, but just don't want to admit it.
Reallink
Member
If Zimmerman cornered him, that's absolutely possible.
Reallink
Member
Yea that's perfectly valid as well. My thought process was that Traynor maintained a clear path and escape plan, so what would have made him decide to stand his ground? But it's certainly possible he realized he couldn't get away, didn't want to lead Zimmerman to his family's home, or was cornered.
empty vessel
Member
In the language of the statute, the aggressor is whoever "provoke[d]" the use of force against himself, which is a bit broader than merely throwing the first punch or making a tackle. One needn't necessarily do that to "provoke" force against oneself. If one's actions cause another to reasonably believe that force is imminently going to be used against him, then one may have "provoked" the use of force against oneself, even if one never threw a punch or made a tackle. (At least, the other person would be justified under the law in using force in self defense.) Of course, the Florida courts are free to interpret this language however they like, and I am not familiar with Florida case law interpreting this provision.
Shouldn't Trayvon Martin have the right to stand his ground while being followed by someone he doesn't know for no legitimate reason whatsoever? Seems to me that Zimmerman was entirely the aggressor in this situation. Even if he had thrown the first punch, Zimmerman put himself in that situation by getting out of his car and confronting him in a hostile manner. What gives Zimmerman the authority to go confronting anybody who happens to be out taking a walk? Neighborhood watch is just that. Neighborhood WATCH. Not neighborhood confront and execute. Speaking as a fairly conservative gun owner, this case makes me sick. This piece of shit gives all of us non psychotic, responsible gun owners a black eye. I hope they nail this fucker to the wall for this.
Zimmerman wasn't supposed to follow him at all, let alone corner him.
Never mind. Getting too ridiculous in here. Bailing out.
So lets just say Trayvon did strike the first punch. What's your point?
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
this is tebow-to-the-jets level shit right here. amazing.
MightyHealthy
Banned
What is your obsession with curb stomping?
I also like how Mr. I Am Against The Racist Agenda has invented about half a dozen scenarios for Zimmerman to claim his life was in danger, and casually glances over Trayvon Martin's right to self-defense.
This thread has been pretty sad the last couple of pages, aside from the random good news about Bill Lee being yanked for his biased ass remarks.
Reallink
Member
Cause I like Gears of War? This is a video game forum afterall, it's an example everyone will be familiar with. Stomping or beating someone's head is (I assume) the easiest and most obvious way to kill someone bare handed. The topic of those discussions were "how your life could be in danger from an unarmed assailant". That is how, it's dirt simple, everyone understands it.
You should probably direct that one to empty vessel, he seems to have a better understanding of the actual law. I was merely suggesting a reason for why the police failed to arrest or why prosecutors may not be able to pin murder charges on Zimmerman.
I think I was pretty clear is saying it was perfectly reasonable on Traynor's part. The question is does the law (or the court's interpretation) allow for it?
This.
Zimmerman should get the Bruce Willis in Harlem treatment as seen in Die Hard 3.
Wait, so I'm minding my own business, you start chasing me, then confront me, push me, I push back and then I'm the aggressor? Gtfo. It's clear that this kid wouldn't have tried to attack a grown ass man over 100lbs heavier than him just for following him.
Here's what I think happened. Zimmerman was trying to play "hero cop" and "arrest" the kid and the kid struggled. When Zimmerman got the upperhand, the kid started screaming for help because suddenly this huge 250lbs guy (who could've been a rapist/murderer in the kid's mind) is trying to grab and restrain him. Zimmerman freaks out because the kid is screaming loud enough to attract a lot of attention and realizes that the law could very well go against him, so he decides to kill the kid and claim self defense.
I'm VERY interested in the ballistics and how close the gun shot was, but I really don't trust the fucking medical examiner when it took them 3 DAYS to even notify the kid's parents.
Bay Maximus
Banned
Even that news is tainted considering it's just temporary for now. Part of me wants to believe that those actually defending Zimmerman given all the information out are just having fun and aren't really that......naive. But evidently there are people that believe hunting down, attacking and then shooting to death an unarmed child in cold blood is understandable as long as he is wearing dark clothes or a hoodie in their neighborhood. I don't even know what to say other than I hope Zimmerman and the woefully incompetent Sanford police dept get their just deserts.
racist wannabe skinhead. favorite movie is American History X.
soundahfekz
Member
Sounds to me the closest some of these posters have ever been to fight or flight is a motherfucking gundam game.
You don't do both. You do one or the other, and you do them intensely until the threat of harm is gone.
Zimmerman's FACE looks like it weighs more than trayvons entire body. Even in the extremely unlikely event he struck first, he wouldn't have done much at 100 lbs less. Based on everything weve heard though I'm not even entertaining that.
You don't do both. You do one or the other, and you do them intensely until the threat of harm is gone.
Zimmerman's FACE looks like it weighs more than trayvons entire body. Even in the extremely unlikely event he struck first, he wouldn't have done much at 100 lbs less. Based on everything weve heard though I'm not even entertaining that.
No no no, you don't get it. A hoodie is fine when the sky is clear and it's light out. But in the dark and the rain it BECOMES suspicious. I mean, who the hell wears a hoodie when it starts raining? or when it gets dark? these are clear indicators! clear. indicators. Of Trayvon being up to no good and starting trouble in Zimmerman's neighbourhood.
To be clear, this entire thing is a fuckup and the fact that Zimmerman wasn't immediately held and subsequently arrested is a joke.
Have you asked yourself why you're white-knighting a racist murderer?
I mean, playing devil's advocate is usually harmless but this is a real, regular kid that was murdered by a guy who's 120 lbs heavier than him that aggressively pursued him for looking suspicious. Let's be real, he wasn't curb stomping anyone.
Maybe take a step back and reflect on yourself, seriously, because if you're not trolling than you really have deeper problems you should look into.
Vicetrailia
Member
It sounds to me like this was bound to happen at some point with somebody. Zimmerman wants to be a policeman so bad, he's just so proactive and invested to every degree.
He fucked up bad and took it way to far.
soundahfekz
Member
Church.
Also a student of Charles Xavier. He can tell us the exact moment when the victim decided to stop running and then turn around to confront his pursuer. Not only that, but he can tell us why.
was this a witness witness, or a corrected by police witness?
Dreams-Visions
Member
yes.
Chie Satonaka
Member
I am astonished. ASTONISHED that people are actually trying to justify this. This poor fucking kid. People on talk radio, on the news, on the Internet, people are seriously trying to rationalize how this happened besides the obvious.
I'm mad. And I'm sad. And I'm hurt.
Devolution
Member
Oh you mean the witnesses who were told that it was actually the opposite of what they heard and saw?
Did you just pop in here thinking that wouldn't get called out. Have you read the thread? What do you think you'll accomplish?
CrazyDogg77
Member
Witnesses have stated that police corrected their statements telling them something different than what they heard, whats to say they didn't do the same here?
I'm interested in what they say, not because I believe them, since it's obvious that this was cold blooded murder, but I like hearing contrary arguments that his defense lawyer would argue. I would like this guy to spend the rest of his life in prison without parole, so I hope they don't screw up the prosecution.
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