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Fighting Games Weekly | July 27 - Aug 2 | Beta luck next time

Dahbomb

Member
Meanwhile in Japan if you already know how the basics of FGs work they're not worried about teaching basic OSes, and their low level players will start to use them and learn the critical thinking skills they'll need in context of what they are playing.
That's the thing though... for most beginners they don't actually know the basic of FGs much less the basic of specific fighters.

For Daigo to go into GG and start learning OSes out of the gate is fine because A) he's a long time fighting game player who knows the basics/fundamentals of fighting games and B) he is already familiar with the GG series.

I think there's some dissonance here on what we mean by beginner and low level player. When I think of beginner level stuff I am thinking of Xavier Woods in that Cross Counter SFV series.

You should start with the broadest concepts that could be applied across pretty much all fighters, then you narrow down to concepts that could be applied to most game in the series and then you keep narrowing down to mechanics that are very exclusive to the game you are teaching. And finally you start narrowing down to characters and match ups even further.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
I do agree with Anne that SF4 really scared people and gave this stigma to OSes. Having people learn them all at the end isn't good in my eyes since they can make learning a game much easier along the way. Earliest OSes I learned without knowing what they were called was SF2 where you'd throw with a medium punch instead of a fierce. Small easy ones like should be pointed out as early as possible imo.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Off topic but Yipes was talking about how Justin "discovered" some fuzzy guard in MVC3 that allowed him to better block right/left mix ups (mostly pertaining to Zero mix ups). I don't know how legit it is though. This was at this year's EVO by the way (Justin in fact didn't get eliminated by a Zero player, it was a Haggar/Hulk team and a Morrigan/Doom team).
 

Anne

Member
That's the thing though... for most beginners they don't actually know the basic of FGs much less the basic of specific fighters.

For Daigo to go into GG and start learning OSes out of the gate is fine because A) he's a long time fighting game player who knows the basics/fundamentals of fighting games and B) he is already familiar with the GG series.

I think there's some dissonance here on what we mean by beginner and low level player. When I think of beginner level stuff I am thinking of Xavier Woods in that Cross Counter SFV series.

You should start with the broadest concepts that could be applied across pretty much all fighters, then you narrow down to concepts that could be applied to most game in the series and then you keep narrowing down to mechanics that are very exclusive to the game you are teaching. And finally you start narrowing down to characters and match ups even further.

We treat all our low level players like Xavier Woods beginners. The guy I mentioned in my example has been playing games for awhile and following tournaments, but we're still too scared to teach them these things over "mah fundamentals".

If you're going to teach somebody a game, give them the info for that game they're going to need or ask for. Don't hide it behind some wall you throw up because you think they need to learn fundamentals. Teach them this shit, teach them how it works, teach them how it fits in with critical thinking. Teach critical thinking skills along the way too.

If I had to show a new player stuff, I would show them some of Juicebox's stuff, then teach them the basic in game stuff in context to that. Teach them critical thinking skills, give them things they can work with using them, they learn how to use those critical thinking skills with the info you give.

If somebody shows up and is already moving and throwing out moves and attempting to play the game, don't cut off things from them. That's so stupid and just hamstrings us. So many players are like "yeah my footsies are getting there" and then I ask "do you know the basic defensive OSes and how to beat them?" and they say no and lose because of that knowledge gap.

That's really unfortunate. You have to learn all those things or your fundamentals might go to waste.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I feel like we are saying the same thing but again clashing on low level player definition. The guy used in the example is no longer a beginner player if he know the moves, how to use them, has a good enough grasp on fundamentals/footsies etc and follows/goes to tournaments. Not only do I think that guy should be taught the relevant OSes but in fact I would expect that he should know it already if he wants to be a serious tournament player.

Like for example, its baffling to me that US tournament SF4 players don't know about and/or don't use those Momochi OSes. It would be like Japanese Marvel players trying to compete in a Marvel tournament without knowing about or learning plink dashing.
 

Anne

Member
Yeah we're in agreement here lol

It's been bothering me though so I'm yelling about it :< it's really bad in anime.

I mean low level players. They should be made aware of things they'll run into if they plan to play more than their neighbors and co workers.
 

Seyavesh

Member
Off topic but Yipes was talking about how Justin "discovered" some fuzzy guard in MVC3 that allowed him to better block right/left mix ups (mostly pertaining to Zero mix ups). I don't know how legit it is though. This was at this year's EVO by the way (Justin in fact didn't get eliminated by a Zero player, it was a Haggar/Hulk team and a Morrigan/Doom team).

the sad part is that even if that fuzzy guard is super real it doesn't matter that much because zero still has fuzzy ioh mixups and unblockable setups anyhow

man, fuck zero
 

Dahbomb

Member
the sad part is that even if that fuzzy guard is super real it doesn't matter that much because zero still has fuzzy ioh mixups and unblockable setups anyhow

man, fuck zero
Time to develop fuzzy defend tech for high/low mix ups!

And yea this tech real or not doesn't really prevent Zero from being best in the game.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
I missed a good amount of matches of the UNIST tourney. Curious on how Byakuya does against characters like Gord in this version.

I wonder if maa-kun's every going to go back to Yuzu. His Phonon looks pretty good already.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
That's a nice discussion I started. Does Dahbomb show up in tournies?

Banana for life

132.gif


Artificial banana is the worst.
 
Smug lost to Bonchan 5-1 in topanga because he doesn't have any sagat players in his region.

Snake Eyez lost to Momochi because he doesn't have any ken players in his region.

PR Balrog lost to Kazunoko at Canada Cup and SXSW because there are no Yuns in norcal.

No Yuns in NorCal? Are you even familiar with the NorCal scene?
 

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Most of them are good. I prefer pineapple and cola. Sour patch is nasty. And yeah this is the result of this heatwave. Been drinking slurpees 24/7. Could use one right now.
 

shaowebb

Member
That's a nice discussion I started. Does Dahbomb show up in tournies?



132.gif


Artificial banana is the worst.

Fun fact. The artificial banana flavor is accurate to what was the original most exported banana that brought bananas into early popularity in other countries. A blight nearly wiped out that species and the species of banana we eat today replaced them on the market as quantities became more scarce of the lighter colored bananas that the artificial flavor of banana is based upon.

*/foodie*
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Fun fact. The artificial banana flavor is accurate to what was the original most exported banana that brought bananas into early popularity in other countries. A blight nearly wiped out that species and the species of banana we eat today replaced them on the market as quantities became more scarce of the lighter colored bananas that the artificial flavor of banana is based upon.

*/foodie*
Another fun fact that blight is hitting the Candevish variety and genetic engineering is attempting to make another vareity for when the blight ever gets critical. One of the populae ones will taste like the original one. Although if you ask be Bananas are kinda fucked by people because they are all clones. *biotechnologist*

I do agree with Anne that SF4 really scared people and gave this stigma to OSes. Having people learn them all at the end isn't good in my eyes since they can make learning a game much easier along the way. Earliest OSes I learned without knowing what they were called was SF2 where you'd throw with a medium punch instead of a fierce. Small easy ones like should be pointed out as early as possible imo.

Main problem with some thing with learning OSes too early is it leads to information overload which will always plague a newer player. I think people who are versed in fighting games sometimes don't have the perspective of how it is for a newer person who has come in when system upon system is built in and has to learn them all while a older player has seen them built on and had simpler base to come from. It's what really hurts Tekken. You have the people since Tekken 3 playing all through out, so the additions have been layered on and having more time to get familiar with things makes the learning overall easier for the old school players.

One day I need some help to see how we can use outsiders to help build something that will shoot past some stigmas. Also we need more people like Max and Juicebox and less of the people who just stick around on the tourney scene.
 

Anne

Member
I mean, some of them are real simple (i.e crouch teching). When I first started learning to play Persona, it was my first anime game and first step outside of SF4. I spent my first year with that game being ass and basically learning what I could off locals and Dustloop and stuff.

At some point I became friends with some of the strongest NA players at the time. We were doing something about the game, and I was like "yeah, I have trouble with throw/rejump stuff"

"oh, you can OS that"

"how?"

"upback and grab, do it at this timing, be careful because jump start up and lows and stuff"

"...oh"

I spent the first year of that game not knowing an OS that high level players were all using, that would've helped me way earlier and would've stopped my ass from getting air grabbed orz. I was actually using a mix up I stole from a video of Yume, turns out the mix up he was doing could be OSed, but he was doing OS baits before he did it. I had no context to actually think about that technique and what he was doing other than thinking it was a cheap mix up. It also sucked when we started learning fuzzy OS stuff and it took me a bit longer to learn because I had never really learned defensive OSes before and had to rewire my brain to the concept.

It was funny because I would start to use them and people would get frustrated. I would tell them what I was doing and how to stop it, and they wouldn't stop it or use it themselves. "Why don't you actually make a read and play the game M'Ellis?" I actually developed a bad habit at some point of being lazy and spamming fuzzy jump vs low level players(we all did). Luckily the upper layer Persona people caught on fast enough and I got used to an environment where if I did that I'd die. Stopped that real quick lol.

It's all really simple concepts with really negative stigmas attached due to the word "OS". I'll just start saying "fuzzy defense" instead of OS from now on to see how well that goes over. I'd wager it's about time to introduced those once players have basic offense/defense figured out and it's time for them to start combining decisions. "Hey, you know how to tech, mash, and block, right? Let's try putting those together."

The real unfortunate part is like, let's say you're somebody who's not super good but understands all the basic fighting game stuff. You go to learn BB, and you don't need that basic bullshit, but at your "beginner level" that's all you get. Those techniques that are required for mid level play and higher are locked behind some gate that says "this is complicated, you won't need it until high level play, go watch Juicebox's video for the 10th time".

Have some faith in the people who made it past the bare minimum to be able to think some. Also we're hella bad at explaining it, something we should work on. I make it sound way more complicated than it is. My experience with the community in this regard has been overwhelmingly negative though so I'll keep making megaposts about it.

Edit: Also, at that point, most new players just start looking for new combos, set ups, etc what have you and start grinding themselves into oblivion cause that's what they were given. Now we at least have Juicebox making vids to work on critical thinking and footsies, but I mean that is that. Giving them more useful techniques to learn than combos and set ups and gimmicks and blah seems like a smarter investment.

I'm also going to start replacing the word "fundamentals" with "critical thinking". I think fundamentals actually doesn't say much about anything, it's a catch all term people use for anything not execution related these days.
 

Onemic

Member
Besides crouch tech and buffering normals I know of 0 os' in FG's. Mostly because I've literally never heard/been told of any
 

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Besides crouch tech and buffering normals I know of 0 os' in FG's. Mostly because I've literally never heard/been told of any
in vf5fs you can break throws while blocking just by holding P+G after pressing guard, this is called lazy throw escape
there is literally no reason to not be breaking throw while blocking
now you know 1 more
 

alstein

Member
I do agree with Anne that SF4 really scared people and gave this stigma to OSes. Having people learn them all at the end isn't good in my eyes since they can make learning a game much easier along the way. Earliest OSes I learned without knowing what they were called was SF2 where you'd throw with a medium punch instead of a fierce. Small easy ones like should be pointed out as early as possible imo.

The stigma existed before SF4. Also, your traditionalists really don't like OS's, except for 1-button grabs (and even that's a "lesser of two evils", as kara-throws are considered worse by them)

I'm really surprised SF5 didn't bring one-button grabs back.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I do agree that the FGC is really bad in explaining some things to new comers. I really think before we go all "Let's have massive pay ouyts" let's find some outsiders to help craft guides worth a damn to new people and teach the guys who are teachable how to explain their games better.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Fun fact. The artificial banana flavor is accurate to what was the original most exported banana that brought bananas into early popularity in other countries. A blight nearly wiped out that species and the species of banana we eat today replaced them on the market as quantities became more scarce of the lighter colored bananas that the artificial flavor of banana is based upon.

*/foodie*

Yup and it's super tasty and potent in flavor.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
how good is Gachikun? What would be the U.S. equivalent? Strider801 winning a major?

-------------

FVCup 2015 [Capcom Pro Tour Ranking Tournament]
Malaysia's Finest Fighting Games Tournament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjA9_kfUxYo

Notables: Shiro, Gackt, Humanbomb, Itazan, Dark Jiewa, Tonpy, Gonzales, KOK, RB, KIM1234,

wow, that was a really good trailer. hype tournament too, definitely going to watch it.
 

pixelish

Member
how good is Gachikun? What would be the U.S. equivalent? Strider801 winning a major?

-------------

FVCup 2015 [Capcom Pro Tour Ranking Tournament]
Malaysia's Finest Fighting Games Tournament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjA9_kfUxYo

Notables: Shiro, Gackt, Humanbomb, Itazan, Dark Jiewa, Tonpy, Gonzales, KOK, RB, KIM1234,

wow, that was a really good trailer. hype tournament too, definitely going to watch it.
i will be there guys! gonna r&#822;e&#822;p&#822; &#822;t&#822;h&#822;e&#822; &#822;n&#822;e&#822;o&#822;g&#822;a&#822;f&#822; &#822;t&#822;a&#822;g&#822; &#822;a&#822;n&#822;d&#822; &#822;b&#822;o&#822;d&#822;y&#822; &#822;t&#822;h&#822;e&#822;s&#822;e&#822; &#822;f&#822;o&#822;o&#822;l&#822;s&#822; &#822; go 0-2 and be a crowd monster for the remainder of the tournament.

edit: alt link for trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x135qRQyjD0&feature=youtu.be
 
honestly I think forums are the worst way to convey information to new players. Navigating forums are obtuse and people dont compile the data into at least one post or a central location. I dont want to dig through 100 pages of nonsense to find a certain thing. I'd rather have a wiki that has an aggregate of all the info and shit about the game as a resource compared to a forum.

Like I hated when srk updated their forums and all the old links stopped working, Or in dustloop if you click on the Xrd 101 guide, it says click this link which just links back to the same page. wtf
 

Negaduck

Member
Guys I played the best fighting ever at Cali burst yesterday.

cmXAr9z.jpg


This game has free alpha counters that you can guard cancel anything in block stun for any move (even backdashing out of block stun), this character mermaid is top 2 easy if not the best. He has a sonic boom motion command grab that moves forward a bit and has a sick hitbox that you can combo into.

If anyone did any move I would just guard cancel command grab and blow them up.

He also has an SRK that has him coming out of the ground like Sektor.

Oh and when your life gets below 25% you can use your super which is a 2 button command and every super is unlockable and deals 40-60% life.

That game is so dumb, that game is so good.
 

Negaduck

Member
Makeruna! Makend&#333; 2: Kimero Youkai Souri

Its on the Japanese psn. There isn't much about it but I believe it was originally a SNES game that was re-released on psx.
 
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