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Final Thoughts: Okami
- Thread starter U5230
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teruterubozu
Member
Amir0x said:
No, a lot of the side-quests were mostly repeats of some activity you did earlier during the main events. That's not an opinion. I can see why Himuro thought there weren't enough side-quests because they were essentially the same kind of gameplay repeated in a different way.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Himuro, dude, you simply didn't want to like Okami. Admit it. You can defend shit like Shenmue and Yakuza -- apparently entirely because of theme -- but you'll produce ridiculously contradictory observations about a game that you somehow find threatening or because you want to score points against your fanboy nemeses. What the **** EVER, dode.
Dragona: Okami's dungeons are ace. As Capcom/Clover did with Minish Cap, the dungeons are more closely intertwined with the overworld, but they're there -- they're just less discrete and more atypical. They ****in' ROCK.
That said, I have a few complaints with Okami, as with all games:
1. Issun needs to shut his yap during those moments when pictures serve far better than text -- namely, boss introductions and quest closures. The intro WAS too damn long, but I feel ANY intro is too damn long in ANY game. Wind Waker's intro, shitty starting island and stealth dungeon 3 hours were almost intolerable, and far worse than Okami's herky-jerky pedantic intro plus tutorial hour-and-a-half. (There has never been a moment more effective in games of these type as was in Ocarina when Link enters a large chamber within the Deku Tree and sees that single alien eye peering out at him from the ceiling's mist before suddenly coalescing into MOTHER****ING GOHMA -- it was scary, it was perfectly executed, and it was BRIEF.)
2. Camera sucks, much like it does in the 3D Zeldas. I don't wanna see the main character's ass when I'm pressed up against a wall. You'd think SOMEONE woulda fixed it by now, but I won't expect a Japanese developer to do it. They haven't gotten a third-person action camera half as right as Insomniac or Naughty Dog have.
3. Saves take too damn long, and I'd like a few more points to save in the "overworld". I have a ****in' kid and need to stop on a moment's notice to shove in Mysteries of the Deep: Dolphins or Fantasia 2000.
4. What few mini-game sequences that do exist aren't stellar. The vines-to-logs sequence and the fishing were "eh". Neither were as stupidly aggravating as Wind Waker's lantern jumping (camera hijinks for the loss), "stealth dungeons", or sailing, though. I can't fathom the complaints about the wall guard weak point "games" -- I nailed 'em all on the first try. I rock.
Outside of that, I consider Okami largely unimpeachable and any complaints beyond those listed above nothing more than aggravated fanboy sophistry of the most disingenuous order. The game works spectacularly well as designed, and the brush system is brilliant re-imagining of the more traditional "tools" system found in the Zelda titles (and its third-rate clones). Best of all, it works perfectly within the context of the game and its art direction. I can't say I'm sorry that the Nintard brigade is threatened by it -- given that I've been saying that Capcom knows how to make traditional epic Nintendo titles better than Nintendo does these days -- but I also expected quite bit better criticism than this "wah wah I hate the brush" nonsense or worse, lameduck criticisms that are equally applicable to ANY 3D Zelda created. Gerrymandering over what consitutes a "fetch quest" or "exploration" is retarded -- if you want to the equivalent of Wind Wakers inane sailing, triforce quests, and the horrible baton motions, then...wait, there IS NO EQUIVALENT to that degree of terrible game design in Okami.
And yes, the two games ARE directly comparable, except that Okami is more original, more creative, more imaginative, has tighter coupling of its various mechanics, and has roughly three times the content. Clover's probably the best studio for traditional Japanese gaming content these days; certainly a sore sight better than Nintendo, although I have really high expectations for the GAMECUBE version of Twilight Princess (I bought my third Cube today along with the two Baten Kaitos games thanks to Dragona). If Clover got Aonuma (and some key folks from EAD), I'd never hafta consider a Nintendo game again.
Dragona: Okami's dungeons are ace. As Capcom/Clover did with Minish Cap, the dungeons are more closely intertwined with the overworld, but they're there -- they're just less discrete and more atypical. They ****in' ROCK.
That said, I have a few complaints with Okami, as with all games:
1. Issun needs to shut his yap during those moments when pictures serve far better than text -- namely, boss introductions and quest closures. The intro WAS too damn long, but I feel ANY intro is too damn long in ANY game. Wind Waker's intro, shitty starting island and stealth dungeon 3 hours were almost intolerable, and far worse than Okami's herky-jerky pedantic intro plus tutorial hour-and-a-half. (There has never been a moment more effective in games of these type as was in Ocarina when Link enters a large chamber within the Deku Tree and sees that single alien eye peering out at him from the ceiling's mist before suddenly coalescing into MOTHER****ING GOHMA -- it was scary, it was perfectly executed, and it was BRIEF.)
2. Camera sucks, much like it does in the 3D Zeldas. I don't wanna see the main character's ass when I'm pressed up against a wall. You'd think SOMEONE woulda fixed it by now, but I won't expect a Japanese developer to do it. They haven't gotten a third-person action camera half as right as Insomniac or Naughty Dog have.
3. Saves take too damn long, and I'd like a few more points to save in the "overworld". I have a ****in' kid and need to stop on a moment's notice to shove in Mysteries of the Deep: Dolphins or Fantasia 2000.
4. What few mini-game sequences that do exist aren't stellar. The vines-to-logs sequence and the fishing were "eh". Neither were as stupidly aggravating as Wind Waker's lantern jumping (camera hijinks for the loss), "stealth dungeons", or sailing, though. I can't fathom the complaints about the wall guard weak point "games" -- I nailed 'em all on the first try. I rock.
Outside of that, I consider Okami largely unimpeachable and any complaints beyond those listed above nothing more than aggravated fanboy sophistry of the most disingenuous order. The game works spectacularly well as designed, and the brush system is brilliant re-imagining of the more traditional "tools" system found in the Zelda titles (and its third-rate clones). Best of all, it works perfectly within the context of the game and its art direction. I can't say I'm sorry that the Nintard brigade is threatened by it -- given that I've been saying that Capcom knows how to make traditional epic Nintendo titles better than Nintendo does these days -- but I also expected quite bit better criticism than this "wah wah I hate the brush" nonsense or worse, lameduck criticisms that are equally applicable to ANY 3D Zelda created. Gerrymandering over what consitutes a "fetch quest" or "exploration" is retarded -- if you want to the equivalent of Wind Wakers inane sailing, triforce quests, and the horrible baton motions, then...wait, there IS NO EQUIVALENT to that degree of terrible game design in Okami.
And yes, the two games ARE directly comparable, except that Okami is more original, more creative, more imaginative, has tighter coupling of its various mechanics, and has roughly three times the content. Clover's probably the best studio for traditional Japanese gaming content these days; certainly a sore sight better than Nintendo, although I have really high expectations for the GAMECUBE version of Twilight Princess (I bought my third Cube today along with the two Baten Kaitos games thanks to Dragona). If Clover got Aonuma (and some key folks from EAD), I'd never hafta consider a Nintendo game again.
teruterubozu said:
Ok, that's bullshit again. A game utilizing its own gameplay system to provide sidequests does not mean it lacks them. A sidequest does NOT need to be in minigame form in order to be a sidequest.
What does a sidequest means? It means any quest that is not integral to the main game. Everything I said? It's a fact, they're sidequests. Whether you don't like that a lot of them involve the games combat - holy shit, the game is utilizing its most important aspect to provide sidequests - is another thing entirely.
But there is zero way to confuse the fact that there are tons of sidequests.,
Drinky Crow
Banned
That's ANOTHER big way in which Okami spanks the 3D Zeldas -- combat. Besides having more interesting weapons within comparable base mechanics, the ENEMY VARIETY and the techniques necessary to defeat them are an order of mgnitude larger and more interesting.
CajoleJuice
Member
Holy Christ, Amir0x.
CajoleJuice
Member
You've got spunk kid. I'll give you that.Amir0x said:
Systems_id
Banned
I'm barely five hours into the game and I picked it up on release. I have no idea how people have the time to beat it already.LevelNth said:
DarknessTear
Banned
Load times complaint? I can't say I ever noticed it. Mainly because I was surprised how far you could go without having a load time. *cough* Yakuza *cough*
teruterubozu
Member
Amir0x said:
I'm not denying that there aren't a lot of side-quests - they're just redundant to the main game, that's all I'm saying. As for the side-quests vs. mini-game thing - I don't even know what you're getting at.
teruterubozu said:
you're saying they're redundant. Hello, what do you expect the games sidequests to mostly be about? You want the sidequests to make you do things totally out of the games gameplay system so that it has 'variety.' There's a lot of quests involving fighting enemies because, gasp, fighting enemies is one of the games main gameplay components. There's a lot of sidequests about restoring nature and beauty to the world because, gasp, one of the main systems is in that and so is the theme of the game.
But there are so many things to do that this complaint is really poorly veiled - it surpasses MANY games of a similar type in sheer breadth of things to do.
elostyle said:
I did!
Tokubetsu
Member
Drinky Crow said:
You pretty much just summed up my analysis of everything Himuro has said about okami at this point. I'm beginning to think you have some sort of agenda solely because majority of people picked Okami over Yakuza and those who played both, found Okami better (*OH NOES*)
Drinky Crow
Banned
Himuro said:
Which pretty much drives the last nail into the pressboard coffin that contains your claims to videogame analysis skills. At the end of the day, you're the equivalent of the dude who likes the Dungeons and Dragons movie over Lord of the Rings because "[he] just likes movies with Wayans Brothers in them better."
CajoleJuice
Member
I did too.elostyle said:
teruterubozu
Member
Amir0x said:
Let me start by saying it was one of the better games I played this year, no doubt.
But I'm not going to foam at the mouth to defend this game - I believe it has issues.
I'm not expecting radically different gameplay in the side-quests, a lot of them just felt "shoed in" to me.
I think you can still have variety by using the same gameplay mechanics, just not EXACTLY the same stuff over and over.
Yeah, my complaints are "poorly veiled" - that doesn't even make sense.
hahaha, don't worry Himuro you've done a fine job counterbalancing the love for this amazing game. Your work here is done! :lol
But your argument isn't compelling. You're complaing that the sidequests utilize the gameplay systems in the title too much, thus being redundant. But an alternative design would be shitty. The BEST sidequests make you utilize the gameplay systems in the game, which Okami does in spades.
teruterubozu said:
But your argument isn't compelling. You're complaing that the sidequests utilize the gameplay systems in the title too much, thus being redundant. But an alternative design would be shitty. The BEST sidequests make you utilize the gameplay systems in the game, which Okami does in spades.
you are just looking for a way to downplay his review, I think it's an excellent review backed with facts something a lot of people here dont do. I prefer someone saying what works and what doesnt and explaining why over someone saying "every other games is going to feel dull after this"Amir0x said:
Himuro said:
I'm sorry, now you're coming off as disingenuous.
Rule #1 of avoiding reality: Attack the person, not the argument.
Bravo, Himuro. Keep it up, this is getting good now
Error2k4 said:
I had a huge counterpoint post, which analyzes almost every aspect of his 'review.' I don't care which thing you prefer, but let's not bullshit around reality
flarkminator
Member
*edges closer on seat*
Alex
Member
If you're going to post a large review, with a lot of loose "facts" while playing the apologist to other games in the genre, you're going to leave yourself open to criticism. =/ People are just being too defensive, really, from both sides.
It was a good analysis, to and fro, either way however. It's nice to see the rare absurdly indepth review return to GAF, one way or the other.
PS: Okami rocks. And Drinky's post made me realize I forgot all about Minish cap. Forgive me, Capcom!
It was a good analysis, to and fro, either way however. It's nice to see the rare absurdly indepth review return to GAF, one way or the other.
PS: Okami rocks. And Drinky's post made me realize I forgot all about Minish cap. Forgive me, Capcom!
teruterubozu
Member
Amir0x said:
I understand your point, I'm not oblivious to it.
I'll say it again: I think you could still use the same gameplay mechanics and change it up just a little in the side-quests without being generally the same mission objectives as the main game. How do we know an alternative design would be shitty? I may not have a compelling argument, but I would have preferred more compelling side-quests.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Haha, Himuro likes Shenmue.
dynamitejim
Member
I don't understand how you can cry about "fetch quests" on one hand and then deride a lack of sidequests. 99% of the side quests in these types of adventure games are fetch quests. Just thinking about OoT, the two big quests were the Big Goron Sword quest and the Mask Shop quest. Both involve just going from one place to another, bringing or exchanging items with people. Complaining about side quests being an extension of the main gameplay is also baffling. I can't think of too many instances (any really) where a developer creates a wholly new game mechanic just for a side quest.
The great thing about the side quests in Okami for me is that they're easily accessible and finishable. You really don't have to trudge across huge swaths of land to get them done. I feel more inclined to do them and get them done, breaking up the main game nicely.
The great thing about the side quests in Okami for me is that they're easily accessible and finishable. You really don't have to trudge across huge swaths of land to get them done. I feel more inclined to do them and get them done, breaking up the main game nicely.
teruterubozu
Member
Drinky Crow said:
I like Shenmue too. Nothing wrong with that.
CajoleJuice
Member
Himuro said:
And I like Shenmue as well.
Man, I don't think there's even a single game that GAF as a whole can like.
SoTC was great! Framerate was shit/unplayable!
Halo 2 was great! SP was shit/unplayable!
Yakuza was great! Dub was shit/unplayable!
Wind Waker was great! Tri-force hunt was shit/unplayable!
NSMB was great! Difficulty was shit/unplayable!
Loco Roco was great! Gameplay was shit/unplayable!
Can't we just sit back and say "yes, every game in the UNIVERSE does have some flaws. But the great games are great because the flaws are so small in comparison to everything the does right, that you have a great time throughout and you feel it deserves being called a great game". Picking everything to death seems to be the GAF trend and it makes you think that games just aren't fun anymore.
SoTC was great! Framerate was shit/unplayable!
Halo 2 was great! SP was shit/unplayable!
Yakuza was great! Dub was shit/unplayable!
Wind Waker was great! Tri-force hunt was shit/unplayable!
NSMB was great! Difficulty was shit/unplayable!
Loco Roco was great! Gameplay was shit/unplayable!
Can't we just sit back and say "yes, every game in the UNIVERSE does have some flaws. But the great games are great because the flaws are so small in comparison to everything the does right, that you have a great time throughout and you feel it deserves being called a great game". Picking everything to death seems to be the GAF trend and it makes you think that games just aren't fun anymore.
And yes, I thought Loco Roco sucked, but I didn't jump the in US Loco Roco thread and bring it down.
Alex
Member
I like Nightmare of Druaga.
Nightmare of Druaga >>> Shenmue,
"Can't we just sit back and say "yes, every game in the UNIVERSE does have some flaws. But the great games are great because the flaws are so small in comparison to everything it does right, that you have a great time throughout and you feel it's a great game". Picking everything to death seems to be the GAF trend and it makes you think that games just aren't fun anymore."
Only if we still get to bash EGM
Nightmare of Druaga >>> Shenmue,
"Can't we just sit back and say "yes, every game in the UNIVERSE does have some flaws. But the great games are great because the flaws are so small in comparison to everything it does right, that you have a great time throughout and you feel it's a great game". Picking everything to death seems to be the GAF trend and it makes you think that games just aren't fun anymore."
Only if we still get to bash EGM
Bebpo said:
To be fair, Himuro was playing it the same time we were and so Himuro couldn't possibly know beforehand the game would be boring to him.
What IS silly is that he writes a review and challenges people to address the issues he raises, he ignores them and bitches when it is done. That's just lame.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Liking Shenmue is a personal failing.
teruterubozu
Member
Compared to my other personal failings, me liking Shenmue is very Nickelodeon.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Drinky Crow said:
Reading that makes me feel better. I'll be starting Okami soon. Right after I finish my VP replay.
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Make sure you turn VA off for the first BK or your ears will fall off and attack you.
Drinky Crow
Banned
If Okami had the big ol' NINTENDO logo on it and it was a Gamecube exclusive, I can guarantee any and all fanboys would dismiss the "flaws" they've enumerated as utterly trivial.
And before you do the disingenuous thing and say "bubububububu Drinky you woulda bashed it for being on the Gamecube" remember who HATED the N64 but gave Ocarina of Time his highest score EVER, fags!
RE4: I thought I hated it for being a giant escort mission until I played Samurai Warriors 2, which is the WORST ESCORT MISSION GAME EVER.
And before you do the disingenuous thing and say "bubububububu Drinky you woulda bashed it for being on the Gamecube" remember who HATED the N64 but gave Ocarina of Time his highest score EVER, fags!
RE4: I thought I hated it for being a giant escort mission until I played Samurai Warriors 2, which is the WORST ESCORT MISSION GAME EVER.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Ignore the fanboys Cast, and go play Baten Kaitos. It starts out slow but deck building is so AWESOME. And ignore the characters, they're twats.
Drinky Crow
Banned
You know I couldn't ultimately resist a card game, Dragona. That, Fire Emblem, and Twilight Princess are unfortunately too compelling even for a dyed-in-the-wool Nintendo hater like me.
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