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[amar212]

This is debateable because Forza and GT take a different approach to the matter: In GT you feel all the movements of the car compensating for the lack of feedback you would have through the seat, while in Forza you just feel what you would feel through the steering wheel/column in real life.

Man, please. Please. Seriously.

I am on my phone, so I can't link stuff for days, but please search my username with "XID" and "HID" keywords, even in this very thread IIRC

XID in FM gsmes is nothing but emulated contoller input with basic shock values transferred into FFB. Amazing work done by Fanatec to make *something* out of Xinput is remarkable, as well as fully released slip-physics of Simulation mode - which also fails miserably once the actual countersteer grip comes into question, because Xinput simply can't produce actual grip-reverb (tension-release-tension) due to way it actually function.

I've read similar claims for years, they are all cringe-worthy. GT is developed from the wheel to controller since 2000, PD co-developed 3 wheels in past 13 years around their libraries with Logitech and Thrustmaster. They go that far they actually program separate linearity for different cars to compensate fior axle-degree dofferences in order to provide unique control-scheme.

We can discuss many things but his one should really be left out.

 

[flyinpiranha]

FOR FUCKS SAKE START A NEW VS THREAD! This thread is a shitpile comparison thread and every time I check it, it's nothing but VS shit. If I wanted to see that I would look for a VS thread and go to it.

The old one was started for a reason. This is it.

 

[m23]

So... yeah. Did anything come of this? Its hard to parse this thread sometimes.

No not yet, probably late in the week maybe Thursday or Friday....you know how Turn 10 likes to keep us waiting.

 

[p3tran]

And when I said that main problem is how every criticism towards Forza gets *defended* by highlighting theorethical shortcomings of GT series

this also is right on the money! well put amar!

you want to make forza better? judge it for what it is, and not for what gt is.
because where forza fails, gt succeeds, but then again where gt fails, forza succeeds and
that makes the weight of the entire argument zero.

although I have to say, I dont remember forza players bringing up gt when trying to make a forza critique. at least not those forza players I know and have raced with.


que

Spoiler

Helios with some forza news about when we will have forza news

 

[Jamesways]

I love Forza - always have, always will - but I've come to accept that Dan wants to make a different game to the one I really want. I want Forza to focus on circuit racing. I'm not quite sure what Dan wants, but it ain't that. I would like to see the basics of racing absolutely nailed before one penny is spent on things Autovista, though.

I'm in exactly the same boat. And actually agree with a lot of the points Xanadu makes.

I want an immersive, circuit racing experience. I know we've talked about this many times, but Motorsport is in the title. I really think they should remove that term if the focus is so shifted to be an everyman's casual car game for a target audience of 5 year olds to 90 year old grandmas. Not even mentioning the lack of motorsport sim features, let's talk about the licenses.
Talk about GT checking off boxes?
"We've got Aussie V8s!" - No Aussie V8 courses to race them on.
"We're the official ALMS game!" - Don't have all the cars from the current year, only have a hodgepodge of years and models. Only have 4 of 10 or 11 ALMS tracks.
"We have Indycars!" - Will you have Indy tracks to race them on, or all of them from one year so people could sim a championship?

I know there are plenty of other games out there that mimic motorsports better too. Forza isn't for that people say. But you can't have it both ways, saying FM is the BEST physics and racing sim out there, better then F1 simulators, yet turn around and say those features aren't important and race fans don't want them.

I feel like the focus has changed so much, I wouldn't be surprised if there are anything more than 3 lap races in the career.

I just don't get the mentality of some fans at all. People are ok with only 24 environments (which might even be less for this title), yet want 1200 cars, and will love to pay 5-10 bucks a month for a pack of them for year. All to race on the same environments at the same time of day.
A large variety of tracks and lighting conditions, variable weather, etc, all that gives a racing game longevity to me.
As I've said many times before, I'd take a game with only 50-100 cars or less if it had 70 tracks. But now it's car collecting and looking at them in Autovista that's more important, the number of tracks don't matter.

And these feature arguments boggle my mind. The graphics and physics are TOO GOOD to handle a choice of time of day, or weather. Ok. It's not possible to do this, even on the new hardware. Really? Games like pCARS are coming, and at 60fps, with all of those features. Pretty sure the next GT will have those as well. And other games will have choices for time of day. They already did on the 360.

 

[Mascot]

*snip*

Totally agree with all of that.

I wonder if anyone from Turn 10 is reading this thread and thinking "erm... perhaps we should release some information about our game..?"

 

[p3tran]

we will see guys. the good thing for those wanting nights and rains, is that night/weather in my opinion is an option that is craved more by not the hardcore racing guys.

and I say that this is good news, because this way it is upper on the t10 "must-do" list.

now, if xbone was more powerful, and it could do with ease 1080/60 with some flair and physics and sound, AND on top the extra weight of dynamic lighting/weather effects,
my guess is that even day1 forza would have it.
especially the day/night cycle, you can not forget that they have it ready from horizon.

I think they will crunch the machine and find power to do it later on.
because bottom line, Dan's new favorite target segment, "ze french ladiez", I know for a fact that they like their sunsets and their umbrellas too..

 

[SparksBCN]

I just don't get the mentality of some fans at all. People are ok with only 12 environments

Forza 4 has 24 envinroments, not 12...

 

[Jamesways]

Forza 4 has 24 envinroments, not 12...

Yes it did, FM3 had 12 I believe? I had that number from 3 on the brain.

I still think we're going to get a serious cut track list in 5. Due to time probably.

My point is that I feel people are going to be perfectly ok with a smaller track list, as long as they had their 1000 cars via DLC packs.
All those Autovista, wow!
Yes, I've never seen the inside of a 94 Honda Civic before...
I really hope they spend more time on that then the actual racing. /sarcasm.

 

[Metalmurphy]

nm

 

[SparksBCN]

Yes it did, FM3 had 12 I believe? I had that number from 3 on the brain.

Forza 3 had 20 envinroments, 21 counting Nurburgring GP. Forza 2 had 12 (14 counting DLC) envinroments, which I guess is where you're getting that number.

 

[p3tran]

ok, I bump this thread for a good reason!

after reading this thread (Xbox One Will STILL Function if Kinect Isn't Plugged In
and specifically about kinect:

That said, like online, the console will still function if Kinect isn’t plugged in, although you won’t be able to use any feature or experience that explicitly uses the sensor.

and

if you enter into a required Kinect experience (like Kinect Sports Rivals for instance), you’ll get a message asking if you want to turn the sensor back on in order to continue.

I have only one FORZA QUESTION:

I want to be told that Forza 5 will NOT have a "required kinect experience", as described above,
which as I understand it, it would require me to connect kinect for the game to continue.
so is forza like kinect sports? is it a "required kinect experience" thing? or not?

Helios, answer me this and I will ask nothing more till game goes gold.

 

[HokieJoe]

Motegi didnt sold well in Forza 2 even when was released at only 100 points, there was another track, the 3 track packs that has been released for Forza games have sold like crap, specially compared with carpacks.
Gran Turismo 5 werent very marketed either but they sold pretty well, so sorry but i cant blame Turn10 for releasing car packs one when that what people want (they are voting with their wallets). I dont think the rally expansion sold very good either.

They should've been selling track/car packs a la PGR2.

 

[HokieJoe]

I'm in exactly the same boat. And actually agree with a lot of the points Xanadu makes.

I want an immersive, circuit racing experience. I know we've talked about this many times, but Motorsport is in the title. I really think they should remove that term if the focus is so shifted to be an everyman's casual car game for a target audience of 5 year olds to 90 year old grandmas. Not even mentioning the lack of motorsport sim features, let's talk about the licenses.
Talk about GT checking off boxes?
"We've got Aussie V8s!" - No Aussie V8 courses to race them on.
"We're the official ALMS game!" - Don't have all the cars from the current year, only have a hodgepodge of years and models. Only have 4 of 10 or 11 ALMS tracks.
"We have Indycars!" - Will you have Indy tracks to race them on, or all of them from one year so people could sim a championship?

I know there are plenty of other games out there that mimic motorsports better too. Forza isn't for that people say. But you can't have it both ways, saying FM is the BEST physics and racing sim out there, better then F1 simulators, yet turn around and say those features aren't important and race fans don't want them.

I feel like the focus has changed so much, I wouldn't be surprised if there are anything more than 3 lap races in the career.

I just don't get the mentality of some fans at all. People are ok with only 24 environments (which might even be less for this title), yet want 1200 cars, and will love to pay 5-10 bucks a month for a pack of them for year. All to race on the same environments at the same time of day.
A large variety of tracks and lighting conditions, variable weather, etc, all that gives a racing game longevity to me.
As I've said many times before, I'd take a game with only 50-100 cars or less if it had 70 tracks. But now it's car collecting and looking at them in Autovista that's more important, the number of tracks don't matter.

And these feature arguments boggle my mind. The graphics and physics are TOO GOOD to handle a choice of time of day, or weather. Ok. It's not possible to do this, even on the new hardware. Really? Games like pCARS are coming, and at 60fps, with all of those features. Pretty sure the next GT will have those as well. And other games will have choices for time of day. They already did on the 360.

Agreed. Cars are important, but a good variety of tracks are what gives a racing game staying power. At least for me.

 

[NullPointer]

Agreed. Cars are important, but a good variety of tracks are what gives a racing game staying power. At least for me.

Same. Tracks and conditions, and preferably those conditions changing mid-race bring out the most replayability for me. Cars are nice, but secondary to tracks/conditions/variety.

 

[TJP]

*Lots of great words*

Well said Jamesways, especially the 'needs more tracks' part.

 

[Shaneus]

I'm in exactly the same boat. And actually agree with a lot of the points Xanadu makes.

I want an immersive, circuit racing experience. I know we've talked about this many times, but Motorsport is in the title. I really think they should remove that term if the focus is so shifted to be an everyman's casual car game for a target audience of 5 year olds to 90 year old grandmas. Not even mentioning the lack of motorsport sim features, let's talk about the licenses.
Talk about GT checking off boxes?
"We've got Aussie V8s!" - No Aussie V8 courses to race them on.
"We're the official ALMS game!" - Don't have all the cars from the current year, only have a hodgepodge of years and models. Only have 4 of 10 or 11 ALMS tracks.
"We have Indycars!" - Will you have Indy tracks to race them on, or all of them from one year so people could sim a championship?

I know there are plenty of other games out there that mimic motorsports better too. Forza isn't for that people say. But you can't have it both ways, saying FM is the BEST physics and racing sim out there, better then F1 simulators, yet turn around and say those features aren't important and race fans don't want them.

I feel like the focus has changed so much, I wouldn't be surprised if there are anything more than 3 lap races in the career.

I just don't get the mentality of some fans at all. People are ok with only 24 environments (which might even be less for this title), yet want 1200 cars, and will love to pay 5-10 bucks a month for a pack of them for year. All to race on the same environments at the same time of day.
A large variety of tracks and lighting conditions, variable weather, etc, all that gives a racing game longevity to me.
As I've said many times before, I'd take a game with only 50-100 cars or less if it had 70 tracks. But now it's car collecting and looking at them in Autovista that's more important, the number of tracks don't matter.

And these feature arguments boggle my mind. The graphics and physics are TOO GOOD to handle a choice of time of day, or weather. Ok. It's not possible to do this, even on the new hardware. Really? Games like pCARS are coming, and at 60fps, with all of those features. Pretty sure the next GT will have those as well. And other games will have choices for time of day. They already did on the 360.

Bravo. Bolded the most important bits.

 

[op_ivy]

As I've said many times before, I'd take a game with only 50-100 cars or less if it had 70 tracks.

this. hell, 50 cars is a ton if the selection is decent. fuck car collecting and fuck car porn. really really hoping they find a good solution to include track dlc this time out and have it properly incorporated into the game. even if bundling it with th ecar packs to help it sell, i will buy.

 

[Shaneus]

I think even without night racing/weather/whatever, I'll get this IF there's decent post-release support by way of track DLC. But the way T10 are talking, I'm doubting it'll be anywhere near significant, if at all.

 

[op_ivy]

is there any reason to think that every track won't have multiple times of day (excluding night)? i mean fm4 had it for some tracks and, iirc, the reasoning it wasnt for all of them came down to disc space. how hard could it be to do now that they have bluray and mado installs? its not as good as true time of day change, and it doesnt check that tech box, but it does add variety and would be better then nothing. would you guys be (somewhat) satisfied with that?

 

[Shaneus]

is there any reason to think that every track won't have multiple times of day (excluding night)? i mean fm4 had it for some tracks and, iirc, the reasoning it wasnt for all of them came down to disc space. how hard could it be to do now that they have bluray and mado installs? its not as good as true time of day change, and it doesnt check that tech box, but it does add variety and would be better then nothing. would you guys be (somewhat) satisfied with that?

They're running out of time is the only reason I can think of. If it's enough to leave game content off the disc, it could be enough to omit it completely (or at least, only have it on a select number of tracks a la FM4.

 

[Jamesways]

is there any reason to think that every track won't have multiple times of day (excluding night)? i mean fm4 had it for some tracks and, iirc, the reasoning it wasnt for all of them came down to disc space. how hard could it be to do now that they have bluray and mado installs? its not as good as true time of day change, and it doesnt check that tech box, but it does add variety and would be better then nothing. would you guys be (somewhat) satisfied with that?

They're running out of time is the only reason I can think of. If it's enough to leave game content off the disc, it could be enough to omit it completely (or at least, only have it on a select number of tracks a la FM4.

Indeed, most likely a time issue before launch.
No dynamic weather, yes, disappointing, but what a way to remedy/ease that by offering multiple times of day? Especially if the track list gets abbreviated in any way.

Have lighting options like other games; morning, afternoon, evening- sunny and cloudy. That's really asking a lot in the timeframe, but even one or two of those would be welcome. Hell, just sunny or cloudy would make a big difference in variey.

I find it hard to believe with the new technology that this is impossible. Lighting sources, graphics, cars on track, impossible to have multiple shaders, etc, "can't be done" people say.
It's a time issue, simple as that. If MANY games can offer that on the 360, they can offer that in this, I'm sure.

All of this reminds me of Che's blatherings about cockpit view in fm2. "Sim racers only use bumper or 3rd person, it can't be done/waste of resources" And there it is in fm3, and even better in fm4. I think it's more an issue of Turn 10 looking at the competition's offerings than listening to the fans. Notice in th fm5 vids about the reflections on the windsheild? People are acting like T10 are the first to think of it, but I'm certain they looked at SMS games (among others) and said "Hmm, that really DOES add to immersion, we should add that".

I think future titles will have night and dynamic weather, not because fans are vocal about it, but that most of their competition will offer it, and they'll need to include it to not be left behind.

 

[H3rTz DoNuT]

not because fans are vocal about it, but that most of their competition will offer it, and they'll need to include it to not be left behind.

This ^

Hey James, long time no see

 

[Jamesways]

This ^

Hey James, long time no see

Holy crap, I can't wait to see some of the replicas and original liveries you'll do in fm5! With less jaggies on decals and T10s new stance on giving liveries out based on popularity/demand, your paints will be in everyone's garages and the leaderboards will be really fun to follow.

If I do get an Xbox One and IF the wife lets me paint some replicas while she watches the baby, I'll try to join you.
Lord knows I loved painting logos in 2, 3, and 4. Great fun for OCD people! FM customization is unrivaled, and that is one of the things that makes it a great game.

 

[SatansReverence]

is that supposed to be a good thing? (also, hi, you never did ask for your account details after the psn exploit demo years ago via twitter)

How long until someone tells him GT does the same thing just in a much poorer and less refined way?

Dude, most Sim racing mags, outlets and channels agree that GT5 has the better physics. Even lap times etc in like for like vehicles is far more accurate in GT compared to Forza. I'm surprised you believe what you do.

Number of publications that actually find out specifics and compare to real life, about Zero.

Hell, inside sim racing tried to claim FM4 physics with a wheel were wrong because the wheel goes light as you turn in and begin to understeer. Guess what, that is exactly what happens in real life. You should read some of Scaffs posts on GTplanet.net. He goes into much greater detail on why what GT does is actually flat out wrong compared to reality.

Spoiler

Yes, Amar. I know XiD isn't great for wheel support but with simulation steering + TU1 FM4 plays very well with what it's got. We have also yet to see what the new XiD system will bring to wheel controllers. Perhaps T10 pushed for much better wheel support this time.

And lap times are by far the worst comparison to reality that has ever been thought up. I can match laptimes exactly in FM2 nurburgring compared to real life times even though the track is several miles longer than real life while in GT players can lap several seconds faster than real world times. Oh, but that's right, that whole no fear laughable argument...

I want to be told that Forza 5 will NOT have a "required kinect experience", as described above,
which as I understand it, it would require me to connect kinect for the game to continue.
so is forza like kinect sports? is it a "required kinect experience" thing? or not?

Helios, answer me this and I will ask nothing more till game goes gold.

Should be similar to FM4. Lots of kinect support but little requirement

Spoiler

fuck that kinect achievement...

.

 

[SparksBCN]

Hell, inside sim racing tried to claim FM4 physics with a wheel were wrong because the wheel goes light as you turn in and begin to understeer. Guess what, that is exactly what happens in real life.

I knew ISR shouldn't be trusted, but this is too much... LOL

 

[nib95]

How long until someone tells him GT does the same thing just in a much poorer and less refined way?



Number of publications that actually find out specifics and compare to real life, about Zero.

Hell, inside sim racing tried to claim FM4 physics with a wheel were wrong because the wheel goes light as you turn in and begin to understeer. Guess what, that is exactly what happens in real life. You should read some of Scaffs posts on GTplanet.net. He goes into much greater detail on why what GT does is actually flat out wrong compared to reality.

Spoiler

Yes, Amar. I know XiD isn't great for wheel support but with simulation steering + TU1 FM4 plays very well with what it's got. We have also yet to see what the new XiD system will bring to wheel controllers. Perhaps T10 pushed for much better wheel support this time.

And lap times are by far the worst comparison to reality that has ever been thought up. I can match laptimes exactly in FM2 nurburgring compared to real life times even though the track is several miles longer than real life while in GT players can lap several seconds faster than real world times. Oh, but that's right, that whole no fear laughable argument...



Should be similar to FM4. Lots of kinect support but little requirement

Spoiler

fuck that kinect achievement...

.

Inside Sim Racing are not wrong. From the small amount of track stuff I've done, you get heavier steering or more resistance when you turn in at high speed under heavy load or brake, that is with great speed reduction, or as weight transfers forward and puts more pressure on traction and steering depending on the speeds and variables. This isn't Sunday driving. So many people compare everyday driving physics on ordinary cars at ordinary speeds to racing conditions in high performance vehicles with much more dramatic shifts in speed. The two are not the same.

 

[SatansReverence]

Inside Sim Racing are not wrong.

Yes, they are.

From the small amount of track stuff I've done,

quite clearly a small amount

you get heavier steering or more resistance when you turn in at high speed under heavy load or brake, that is with great speed reduction, or as weight transfers forward and puts more pressure on traction and steering depending on the speeds and variables.

As you reach the limits of grip, the weight through the steering drops off and when you begin to understeer it almost dissappears completely.

This is what Forza replicates. Real life. It's the only thing a simulator should be trying to replicate.

This isn't Sunday driving. So many people compare everyday driving physics on ordinary cars at ordinary speeds to racing conditions in high performance vehicles with much more dramatic shifts in speed. The two are not the same.

Amazing you say that when what happens in real life and Forza is something that only happens at the limit of grip and not at ordinary speeds and what you described above is something that happens at normal driving speeds when well inside the limit of grip.

 

[flyinpiranha]

I totally agree with almost everything Jamesways says. Especially the track part, I bought the CE and the Season Pass for Forza 4. I have a pretty good racing setup but DLC after DLC there were no tracks. I eventually lost interest and stopped playing altogether.

 

[Paladin CL]

Did anyone from Turn 10 ever say that night & weather would be included in future Forzas? Or is it something we've just assumed?

We assumed, to be honest the only indication or hint was a picture of the Turn10 office showing concept art weather after Forza 3. Im pretty sure they have worked in weather and night but not being able to add it for some reason (probably performance in 360 and time in One)

 

[Paladin CL]

I'm in exactly the same boat. And actually agree with a lot of the points Xanadu makes.

I want an immersive, circuit racing experience. I know we've talked about this many times, but Motorsport is in the title. I really think they should remove that term if the focus is so shifted to be an everyman's casual car game for a target audience of 5 year olds to 90 year old grandmas. Not even mentioning the lack of motorsport sim features, let's talk about the licenses.
Talk about GT checking off boxes?
"We've got Aussie V8s!" - No Aussie V8 courses to race them on.
"We're the official ALMS game!" - Don't have all the cars from the current year, only have a hodgepodge of years and models. Only have 4 of 10 or 11 ALMS tracks.
"We have Indycars!" - Will you have Indy tracks to race them on, or all of them from one year so people could sim a championship?

I know there are plenty of other games out there that mimic motorsports better too. Forza isn't for that people say. But you can't have it both ways, saying FM is the BEST physics and racing sim out there, better then F1 simulators, yet turn around and say those features aren't important and race fans don't want them.

I feel like the focus has changed so much, I wouldn't be surprised if there are anything more than 3 lap races in the career.

I just don't get the mentality of some fans at all. People are ok with only 24 environments (which might even be less for this title), yet want 1200 cars, and will love to pay 5-10 bucks a month for a pack of them for year. All to race on the same environments at the same time of day.
A large variety of tracks and lighting conditions, variable weather, etc, all that gives a racing game longevity to me.
As I've said many times before, I'd take a game with only 50-100 cars or less if it had 70 tracks. But now it's car collecting and looking at them in Autovista that's more important, the number of tracks don't matter.

And these feature arguments boggle my mind. The graphics and physics are TOO GOOD to handle a choice of time of day, or weather. Ok. It's not possible to do this, even on the new hardware. Really? Games like pCARS are coming, and at 60fps, with all of those features. Pretty sure the next GT will have those as well. And other games will have choices for time of day. They already did on the 360.

Forza havent change of focus, they have expanded their ideas, seems to me that you saw what you wanted in the first and dreamed about what you wanted for the other games, then they made their own game that is not what you wanted and that leave you dissapointed but the expectation was your fault, not theirs.

I dont get why fans dont buy track, I love car packs and I want those 1200 cars but I would also like more tracks, I feel many of us are in that segment but ultimately I dont know, they must be quite sure they are not going to have good sales with the tracks, its not like Turn10 doesnt want to make money.

As for the Indy, ALMS, etc = welcome to marketing :/

Finally, Pcars have years in developement and they dont have a defined unmoveable release date, Turn10 in other hand need to showcase Xbox One hardware and release a polished game, and if the game doesnt run a 60 fps? they simply tell people to buy a new graphic car, PC gamers are use to that, Xbox One hardware is locked.

No racing game on 360 works as good as Forza, mention me a game with great physics, great graphics, great sound, good AI, solid rock 60 fps that also have weather, night and overall polishing of Forza, in fact tell me any game in this current generation that have that.

So, the reason why other games have those features its because they have the time, hardware and doesnt mind the sacrifices to achieve them.

probably someday Forza (6?) will have weather, night and off road, because all those things are more along the general lines of the franchise. Also I absolutely agree that Forza need more tracks (and off road/rally and more event types).

 

[nib95]

Yes, they are.

quite clearly a small amount



As you reach the limits of grip, the weight through the steering drops off and when you begin to understeer it almost dissappears completely.

This is what Forza replicates. Real life. It's the only thing a simulator should be trying to replicate.



Amazing you say that when what happens in real life and Forza is something that only happens at the limit of grip and not at ordinary speeds and what you described above is something that happens at normal driving speeds when well inside the limit of grip.

Not always true, but it very much depends on variables including lateral force, weight transfers, front or rear wheel drive, lateral acceleration, centrifugal force, amount of traction, tyre slip, slip angles, the weight of the vehicle etc.

It's not at all simplistic or black and white as you try to make out though I would agree a common side effect of understeer can be lighter steering.

Google heavy steering during understeer and you'll also get countless results, because of the set ups of certain vehicles, or often the impacts of added front weight and load during braking (especially when under braking) which can affect steering load and pressure, resulting in heavier steering even in understeer. Likewise a large loss of traction in understeer can also make the steering feel lighter when the front loses its contact with a surface first and starts slidng. When the front slides out the radius becomes larger thus reducing a lateral acceleration and a centrifugal force. Equally the opposite effect can be had depending on the degree of weight transfer, load and traction.

 

[SatansReverence]

Google heavy steering during understeer and you'll also get countless results

That have nothing to do with heavy steering during understeer.

Steering going light when understeering is a fact. It's not set up dependent at all. It happens because as the limit of grip is exceeded there is less force on the tyres trying to bring them in line with the direction of travel and thus there is less force being applied through the various suspension and steering components which results in the wheel feeling lighter.

 

[phosphor112]

I'll PM bish to get a new thread going. We need his blessing.

 

[nib95]

That have nothing to do with heavy steering during understeer.

Steering going light when understeering is a fact. It's not set up dependent at all. It happens because as the limit of grip is exceeded there is less force on the tyres trying to bring them in line with the direction of travel and thus there is less force being applied through the various suspension and steering components which results in the wheel feeling lighter.

Like I said, whilst steering going light is a common trait of understeer, it is not always the case. You're not accounting for steering set up (some vehicles understeer not because of a lack of traction but because of steering angles, caster etc) or the affects of weight transfer, which can also impact steering during understeer. I know a few times (irl) I've not braked hard enough, turned too timidly and found myself understeering and having to put more effort in to the wheel just to then correct steer and turn sharper to re position myself (coupled with continuing to reduce speed but trying to avoid a lock up).

 

[Pepto]

I'll PM bish to get a new thread going. We need his blessing.

We do not need a new vs thread. We need bish to clean up this thread and ban all the console warriors.

 

[nib95]

I'll PM bish to get a new thread going. We need his blessing.

Just make a new thread when there's new news as is the case for most games. Only problem here is that there hasn't really been any solid new news since the reveal.

 

[SatansReverence]

I know a few times (irl) I've not braked hard enough, turned too timidly and found myself understeering and having to put more effort in to the wheel just to then correct steer and turn sharper to re position myself (coupled with continuing to reduce speed but trying to avoid a lock up).

That is NOT understeer.

Understeer is losing grip and thus losing lateral turning forces resulting the the car going wider than commanded by the driver. Once you have lost grip, turning sharper will not help you.

 

[phosphor112]

We do not need a new vs thread. We need bish to clean up this thread and ban all the console warriors.

I guess we should be glad you're not a mod.

Gamescom will have more info on both racing games. There is going to be discussion. It needs to be put somewhere. Clearly this is not the thread.

EDIT:

Understeer can usually happen two ways (it can happen in other ways, but these are the most common). Cars have 4 contact points (tires), when driving at a constant speed in normal conditions, those contacts are all about equal. When you start to change direction, or speed, the weight shifts from one side to the other.

Number 1 cause of understeer is aggressive acceleration (aided by the lack of weight in the front for rear engine vehicles). It causes strong longitudinal G-forces, causing the front end to lift, and back end get most of the weight. The front tires lack/reduction of grip prevents the ability to properly turn through a corner.

Number 2 is aggressive braking while turning (also aided by weight of front engine vehicles). When you applying brakes, most of the physical effort is exerted on the front contacts because of the longitudinal G shift to the front. Because braking already requires tire grip to reduce speed of the car. Initiating a heavy turn, adding lateral g's to the already high load, can cause the tires to exceed it's level of grip.

Both ways involve loss of grip. Steering wheel should go "light". What nib might be experiencing is the reverb from the coefficient of friction trying to be regained. It shouldn't just slide like ice. Heat does cause an increase in friction on the tires as well. It's just often a losing battle as, at that point, the velocity and load on the tire exceeds the grip gains a tire can get from heating up... and that's why tires smoke!

Anyway, I think both games represent understeer well IIRC.

Recovery, on the other hand, should give very heavy feedback.

 

[nib95]

That is NOT understeer.

Understeer is losing grip and thus losing lateral turning forces resulting the the car going wider than commanded by the driver. Once you have lost grip, turning sharper will not help you.

Not just losing grip, but general lack of necessary turning in itself.

un·der·steer  
/ˌəndərˈsti(&#601r/

Verb
(of a motor vehicle) Have a tendency to turn less sharply than is intended: "the car understeers on very fast bends".NounThe tendency of a vehicle to turn in such a way.

Excerpt from Wiki that relates to what I was saying about the different factors.

Many properties of the vehicle affect the understeer gradient, including tire cornering stiffness, camber thrust, lateral force compliance steer, self aligning torque, lateral load transfer, and compliance in the steering system. These individual contributions can be identified analytically or by measurement in aBundorf analysis.

Googling it, it seems your definition is also accurate, but more specific to racing language. I guess I'm using the more literal meaning, since I've used it in vehicle set ups to describe turning angles simply not being acute enough (leading to less than ideal turning sharpness). Eg, this set up (too much downforce, camber etc) is causing my car to understeer. Not necessarily because of a lack of grip, but because of turning sharpness and sometimes even too much grip (downforce).

 

[SatansReverence]

Not just losing grip, but general lack of necessary turning in itself.

un·der·steer  
/ˌəndərˈsti(&#601r/

Verb
(of a motor vehicle) Have a tendency to turn less sharply than is intended: "the car understeers on very fast bends".NounThe tendency of a vehicle to turn in such a way.

Less sharply than intended =/= Driver not turning sharply enough

Googling it, it seems your definition is also accurate, but more specific to racing language. I guess I'm using the more literal meaning, since I've used it in vehicle set ups to describe turning angles simply not being acute enough (leading to less than ideal turning sharpness). Eg, this set up (too much downforce, camber etc) is causing my car to understeer. Not necessarily because of a lack of grip, but because of turning sharpness and sometimes even too much grip (downforce).

The definition of understeer is the same in all vehicle dynamic discussions (which is applicable here). Racing, normal driving or otherwise. If you have lost front end grip, you're understeering. If you haven't, you're not understeering.

So, in conclusion, if you're understeering, you have lost grip. If you have lost grip the tyres have less self aligning torque. If there is less self aligning torque, the steering wheel gets lighter. Since the steering gets lighter, inside sim racing is wrong.

 

[Slayer-33]

Can I has new Forza info please T10

 

[Seanspeed]

You can still understeer without the front end losing grip.

You may be lacking grip at the front compared to what you'd like, but you don't necessarily have to break traction to experience it. Its certainly a common consequence of it, though, as you try and turn harder than your front end will allow you, which also can result in the understeer -> snap oversteer moments depending on the type of car and its setup.

Also, depending on your driving style, you can experience understeer even with a good amount of front grip. If you like to use the back end to rotate you mid-corner, especially for slower corners, sometimes having too much grip at the rear will cause you unwanted understeer.

 

[Mascot]

I won't accept ANY time/launch excuses (either from Turn 10 or from FM apologists) when EVERY car in the game has been given Forzavista treatment. The more I think about this the madder I get - what an unbelievably pointless misappropriation of resources in a motorsport game.

Does anyone (except Dan) really care that much about Autovista? I haven't even bothered looking at half of them in FM4, and those I have looked at I've viewed only once. I race TRACKS, however, numerous times.

And please, no smug "It's a different team that does Autovista than those that model tracks blah blah blah" replies - that argument is nothing but bullshit. It's a drain on overall budget and resources, of which the pit is not bottomless. You have to rob track-modelling Peter to pay Autovista Paul.

 

[saladine1]

I guess now's a good time as any to reveal something aye Turn 10?
The mob is getting restless.

Discussion about the negatives is very healthy. To not talk about it and not to give opinions on what can make Forza a better game would be a disservice to the franchise and fans alike.
Having said that however, I actually can't wait until we start discussing the positives about the game. I kind of miss it..

 

[Metalmurphy]

is that supposed to be a good thing? (also, hi, you never did ask for your account details after the psn exploit demo years ago via twitter)

lol, that was you? I think you PMed me the details right away, I have the account back.

And I wasn't saying it was a good thing or a bad thing, just that a gimped physics engine is kind of an incorrect way to say. The physics engine is still working in the same way, the inputs that go into it just aren't what you are actually doing.

How long until someone tells him GT does the same thing just in a much poorer and less refined way?

You're talking about me? I was siding with Forza you twat. Jesus some of you people are just pathetic.

Also I wouldn't know, I always use a wheel, but that sure does sound like a really biased and fanboyish way of saying that GT has less driving aids.

"poorer and less refined way" lol

 

[SatansReverence]

You're talking about me? I was siding with Forza you twat. Jesus some of you people are just pathetic.

Also I wouldn't know, I always use a wheel, but that sure does sound like a really biased and fanboyish way of saying that GT has less driving aids.

"poorer and less refined way" lol

Did I quote you? No, I didn't...

 

[Metalmurphy]

Did I quote you? No, I didn't...

You quoted someone who quoted me and referred to as "him" (me) and not "you" ( the one you quoted)

 

[Xanadu]

You quoted someone who quoted me and referred to as "him" (me) and not "you" ( the one you quoted)

lol

 

[nib95]

You can still understeer without the front end losing grip.

You may be lacking grip at the front compared to what you'd like, but you don't necessarily have to break traction to experience it. Its certainly a common consequence of it, though, as you try and turn harder than your front end will allow you, which also can result in the understeer -> snap oversteer moments depending on the type of car and its setup.

Also, depending on your driving style, you can experience understeer even with a good amount of front grip. If you like to use the back end to rotate you mid-corner, especially for slower corners, sometimes having too much grip at the rear will cause you unwanted understeer.

Agreed. But this is the internet lol. Debates are circular. I've actually experienced exactly what you've described myself as mentioned earlier. I don't agree with such a narrow definition of understeer when the reality is far more variable, and as mentioned can happen even without the loss of traction or grip.