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[Krabardaf]

You cannot abuse your freedom of speech first and foremost, you were born with it and your opinions are yours and if your society is unable to deal with your opinions then it is the society that is sick, not you. Unless these imams were actively involved with the planning and carrying out of these violent attacks then this is nothing but a hatchet job, pure and simple. Prove they were involved or this is nothing but islamophobia.

Your freedom of speech is limited by rules, it isn't absolute to begin with.
Holocaust denial in France is a criminal offense, isn't it?
Even heinous behavior is forbidden if I'm not mistaken.

Although I agree that we shouldn't punish people who holds any opinions, regardless of how bad they are. However, if they are menacing or commit an offense, I can't feel bad knowing they'll be punished.

 

[Mael]

There was other issues on the guys list then calls for killing french citizens (denigrate women, who hold views that run counter to our values). No where it said you need 3/3 to get the boot, seems like you only need to go agains values of France and might get kick on the bum.

Well yeah.
That's it.
You're a guest, if you have a problem with that, the door is that way ->[].

 

[Violet_0]

pretty sure Germany did the same thing a while ago

 

[patapuf]

here's a good one



You cannot abuse your freedom of speech first and foremost, you were born with it and your opinions are yours and if your society is unable to deal with your opinions then it is the society that is sick, not you. Unless these imams were actively involved with the planning and carrying out of these violent attacks then this is nothing but a hatchet job, pure and simple. Prove they were involved or this is nothing but islamophobia.

If you are in a foreign country and stirr up shit there is no reason to be surprised when you are kicked out.

Hateful speech is banned in most western countries, an that's a good thing.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Your freedom of speech is limited by rules, it isn't absolute to begin with.

Natural law != Positive law. The law of the local dictator only determines to what extent your rights are being infringed.

 

[Skellig Gra]

So why can't you endure non-citizens?

By the very concept of citizenship you don't have to endure non-citizens.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Alan De Botton is building a church (or was it a tempel?) for atheists. I also recall seeing guardian article about first Atheist church in UK, not sure if it was a joke article since I didn't read it.

That's funny if true. Build a church/temple so you can go and not worship anything. I can't wait until they have their own bible.

 

[Simplet]

So why can't you endure non-citizens?

Because you are perfectly in your right to kick them out, so why bother enduring?

Natural law != Positive law. The law of the local dictator only determines to what extent your freedom is being infringed.

You look confused here, what are you arguing?

 

[CiSTM]

Well yeah.
That's it.
You're a guest, if you have a problem with that, the door is that way ->[].

That's what our right wingers say. Don't like it? The. Get the fuck out. I guess that's one solution.

 

[Kurita]

I'm ok with it.

 

[Tuck]

Okay but my point stands. What do you do with those citizens who preach the same speech yet non-citizens get deported?

Clearly defined Hate speech laws.

 

[Mael]

Nothing? Guy asked if there were atheist churches and I said yes. Before that I jokingly said maybe when atheist churches become more popular we get our own crazies. Not part of main discussion.

Ok my bad.
I thought it was.

That's what our right wingers say. Don't like it? The. Get the fuck out. I guess that's one solution.

There's a difference between people who come to the country and live peacefully and people who openly shows no disregard for the country and shit on it everyday.
There's plenty of people who aren't welcomed here (at least not welcome anywhere else than our prisons and looking at the state they are...), it's nothing less than that.
It's very different from the vague "they hate it out there, these bums sucking up at the social system" rethoric of the right wing directed toward people who are dirt poor and can't find a job.

 

[LazyLoki]

pretty sure Germany did the same thing a while ago

We're still doing it, albeit at a much slower rate than before.

 

[Chibrou]

I was born muslim, don't believe in religion anymore. Went to france many times and have a lot of family there in many cities but i would never ever live in that country. Simply because of my name, i'm seen as an inferior minority in that country. People just love to hate there, Paris especially.

Well, I've been living in Paris for 30 years (and in France coincidentally) and I don't know what you are talking about.
Some of our most popular movie stars and entertainers are arabs or black, our football players are, many important politicians, "those people" are for the most part well integrated in the french society.
There still racism but it doesn't look like the grim situation you painted.

 

[Krabardaf]

Natural law != Positive law. The law of the local dictator only determines to what extent your freedom is being infringed.

Okay, interesting. But I don't get your point. Society isn't ruled by natural laws. And thankfully so since they aren't objective.

 

[SmokyDave]

here's a good one



You cannot abuse your freedom of speech first and foremost, you were born with it and your opinions are yours and if your society is unable to deal with your opinions then it is the society that is sick, not you. Unless these imams were actively involved with the planning and carrying out of these violent attacks then this is nothing but a hatchet job, pure and simple. Prove they were involved or this is nothing but islamophobia.

Freedom of speech is not absolute and I fail to see how a belief that non-citizens should be deported for hate-speech and incitement is 'part of the problem'.

 

[Fularu]

In France : we can't have those radical clerics, salafism and wahhabism are bad! We'll deport them!

In Syria : here, take our money and weapons Al-Nosra and go slaughter some more christians, alawis and import your fucked up view of islam there!

Why am I not surprised?

 

[patapuf]

That's what our right wingers say. Don't like it? The. Get the fuck out. I guess that's one solution.

I'm sure these priests were having reasonable discussions before the authorities decided to deport them. Being a minority gives you no more right to hatespeech.

 

[Violater]

What about the radical supporters?
Shouldn't they be deported as well?

 

[Kurtofan]

What about the radical supporters?
Shouldn't they be deported as well?

Preachers have more influence.

In France : we can't have those radical clerics, salafism and wahhabism are bad! We'll deport them!

In Syria : here, take our money and weapons Al-Nosra and go slaughter some more christians, alawis and import your fucked up view of islam there!

Why am I not surprised?

The FSA isn't made of radical Islamists...There are radical Islamists fighting Assad and the situation is fucked up but don't say we're arming people for this.

 

[Mael]

In France : we can't have those radical clerics, salafism and wahhabism are bad! We'll deport them!

In Syria : here, take our money and weapons Al-Nosra and go slaughter some more christians, alawis and import your fucked up view of islam there!

Why am I not surprised?

Holy simplification batman!

What about the radical supporters?
Shouldn't they be deported as well?

If they're making hatespeech in public and are not french citizen, I'd say if they're sued, they're screwed.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Okay, interesting. But I don't get your point. Society isn't ruled by natural laws. And thankfully so since they aren't objective.

What I mean is that we're entitled to freedom of speech and any laws or regulations to instigate thought crime are only worth the paper they're printed on, and should be opposed as much as possible. You say 'Your freedom of speech is limited by rules', so what? It is an anomaly, not something I should agree with just because it's decided by some legal authority.

 

[Fularu]

Holy simplification batman!



If they're making hatespeech in public and are not french citizen, I'd say if they're sued, they're screwed.

Je suis français ET syrien, je ne parle pas dans le vide.

 

[diamount]

In France : we can't have those radical clerics, salafism and wahhabism are bad! We'll deport them!

In Syria : here, take our money and weapons Al-Nosra and go slaughter some more christians, alawis and import your fucked up view of islam there!

Why am I not surprised?

The same people your government is probably arming. Remember Libya?

 

[Mael]

Je suis français ET syrien, je ne parle pas dans le vide.

Je n'en doute pas, mais je pense que s'il y a soutien de la France aux insurgés c'est plus pour dégager le pouvoir en place qui devient indésirable qu'autre chose.
Et les chrétiens massacrés? Dommage collatérale.
Je ne dis pas que c'est bien ou autre, je dis que c'est probablement plus proche de ce qui se passe.

 

[Joni]

That's what our right wingers say. Don't like it? The. Get the fuck out. I guess that's one solution.

So you welcome people who want to 'combat France'.

 

[Violater]

Preachers have more influence.



The FSA isn't made of radical Islamists...There are radical Islamists fighting Assad and the situation is fucked up but don't say we're arming people for this.

There is always a second in command, and ways to relay directives without being physically present.

If they're making hatespeech in public and are not french citizen, I'd say if they're sued, they're screwed.

I'm sure the non public speeches are even worst.

 

[Fularu]

The same people your government is probably arming. Remember Libya?

That's the thing. They (we?) armed them in Lybia and now we have the "Malian crisis".

I just wish we would take all that trash and dump it where it came from, right in Saudi Arabia and Qatar

 

[Mercury Fred]

Go France!

Sidenote, I support accurately labeling hatemonger "Christian" preachers here in the states as radical clerics. It would be amazing to see this catch on-- ie radical cleric Rick Warren or radical cleric Pat Robertson. Call these monsters out for exactly what they are.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Freedom of speech is not absolute and I fail to see how a belief that non-citizens should be deported for hate-speech and incitement is 'part of the problem'.

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

 

[Mael]

That's the thing. They (we?) armed them in Lybia and now we have the "Malian crisis".

I just wish we would take all that trash and dump it where it came from, right in Saudi Arabia and Qatar

Words are that the malian crisis is more the fact that Kaddafi(or whatever you spell it) armed people and let them loose at a final FU.
don't know if true but that's an interesting premice for a movie at least.

I'm sure the non public speeches are even worst.

You wouldn't believe, and they're far from the worst.
If we could we would have deported the Lepen and the likes.
Can't be more anti-France than the FN.

 

[Krabardaf]

What I mean is that we're entitled to freedom of speech and any laws or regulations to instigate thought crime are only worth the paper they're printed on, and should be opposed as much as possible. You say 'Your freedom of speech is limited by rules', so what? It is an anomaly, not something I should agree with just because it's decided by some legal authority.

Fair enough, even though absolute subjectives laws aren't my cup of tea, nor what i think a modern society can work with.

And still, you can not agree with some positive laws, but your life i ruled by them nontheless, and i'm afraid you'll have to deal with it. Or to rally enough people to change them.

 

[diamount]

That's the thing. They (we?) armed them in Lybia and now we have the "Malian crisis".

I just wish we would take all that trash and dump it where it came from, right in Saudi Arabia and Qatar

Saudi Arabia probably funds most terrorists, heck a lot of volunteers in Libya are Saudi, probably the same for Syria also.

 

[SmokyDave]

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

I don't think you have a grasp of what is happening here at all. Moderate muslims are not negatively affected by these measures. If anything, they'll probably be just as happy to see the radical clerics ejected.

The 'problem' isn't hate speech laws, the problem is the hate speech. These clerics aren't raging because they feel 'othered', they're raging because they're fucking bonkers.

 

[Simplet]

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

What? Did you post in the wrong thread? What are you talking about?

What I mean is that we're entitled to freedom of speech and any laws or regulations to instigate thought crime are only worth the paper they're printed on, and should be opposed as much as possible. You say 'Your freedom of speech is limited by rules', so what? It is an anomaly, not something I should agree with just because it's decided by some legal authority.

You need to think about what you're talking about, not just throw words around. Think about what is speech and what is thought. Think about what is a legal measure (crime) and what is political (deportation). Think about what natural mean by itself, and also if it's the same as absolute. Think about the actual logical conclusions of the things you call principles without understanding them.

 

[Mael]

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

Rioters in France were never anything but French citizen.
If they weren't they would have been shipped out of the country on a technicallity long ago if even 1 was caught.
Seriously there's more than enough tool in the penal arsenal to allow it.
Islamophobia is the same fucking problem as racism here, they want to win an election the easy way : fear.

I don't think you have a grasp of what is happening here at all. Moderate muslims are not negatively affected by these measures. If anything, they'll probably be just as happy to see the radical clerics ejected.

The 'problem' isn't hate speech laws, the problem is the hate speech. These clerics aren't raging because they feel 'othered', they're raging because they're fucking bonkers.

And once again we agree on something.

Spoiler

Let's never deal in console wars BS, it just feels wrong being on the other side of an argument

 

[Fularu]

Words are that the malian crisis is more the fact that Kaddafi(or whatever you spell it) armed people and let them loose at a final FU.
don't know if true but that's an interesting premice for a movie at least

Radical islamists were fighting against Kaddafi. The notion that he armed them is so ridiculous that I'm not surprised they are trying to run with it.

Que disait Coluche? "On ne peut pas dire la vérité à la télé, trop de gens la regardent"

 

[Krabardaf]

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

I like your point of view, but you can't say people calling for hate or even murder aren't an issue. What about theses guys? Let them do and hope no one will be manipulated by them?
I'm skeptical.

But i agree the subjective definition of "hate speech" is problematic.

 

[Mael]

Radical islamists were fighting against Kaddafi. The notion that he armed them is so ridiculous that I'm not surprised they are trying to run with it.

Que disait Coluche? "On ne peut pas dire la vérité à la télé, trop de gens la regardent"

I'll be frank, Lybia, Syria, Mali I care none of it.
I don't even follow the news on TV, that's just what I read in the Mali intervention thread.
Kaddafi arming radical muslims isn't a far fetched notion when you know that the guy actually dealt in full scale terrorism before AND that his green revolution was based on nothing but Islam (well Islam and Kaddafi obviously) anyway.

I like your point of view, but you can't say people calling for hate or even murder aren't an issue. What about theses guys? Let them do and hope no one will be manipulated by them?
I'm skeptical.

But i agree the subjective definition of "hate speech" is problematic.

The notion is well defined, if that wasn't the case, the constitutional council AND the EU would have hammered heavily on the law....like how the law against sexual harrassement was struck down.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I like your point of view, but you can't say people calling for hate or even murder aren't an issue. What about theses guys? Let them do and hope no one will be manipulated by them?
I'm skeptical.

I draw the line at calling for violence, inciting riots, etc. If these guys were doing that then bon voyage, but the OP does not clearly say that they were.

 

[zero shift]

I find it very disturbing that some of my American colleagues are suggesting that we should do the same for American CITIZENS...

 

[Metrotab]

"hate speech" being used as a tool to deport undesirables is the entire problem. When you oppress opinions you turn the people who hold those opinions into 'other' and then it should be no surprise when they feel disenfranchised and turn to crime and destruction. That's not to say that rioting is the right thing to do but you see this same thing happen again and again all over the world and nobody ever learns the lesson. Islamophobia is about preserving a monoculture that died out decades ago. The smart thing to do would be to encourage moderates to feel like they are part of the community instead of blindly saying islam is bad, deport muslims, ban headscarves, make their lives miserable hopefully they will leave.

This isn't about preserving monoculture. This is about keeping dangerous radical influences away. Moderate muslims should cheer this on.

 

[jett]

Dear radical muslims

Look at all the fucks I give. Well done, France.

 

[hym]

It's fairly simple to me, freedom of speech ends when you attack freedom of speech.

When non-citizens do that then they should consider it a favor they get to return to places where insulting their false prophet will get you executed.

 

[Krabardaf]

I draw the line at calling for violence, inciting riots, etc. If these guys were doing that then bon voyage, but the OP does not clearly say that they were.

I'm okay with this then.

The notion is well defined, if that wasn't the case, the constitutional council AND the EU would have hammered heavily on the law....like how the law against sexual harrassement was struck down.

Yes it is, but what I mean is that the term is subject to interpretations. Its definition is subjective, even if it's well established now.
It's not a problem presently because it's well regulated, but under a more extreme government, say a conservative religious one, it might be abused to punish blasphemy.(only an example)
I admit we're far from that case now, and that it's better than have no regulations, but i can conceive it raise concerns.

 

[Dilly]

Good, such opinions have no place in modern society.

For all I care, they should've deported those against gay marriage to an island.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Go France!

Sidenote, I support accurately labeling hatemonger "Christian" preachers here in the states as radical clerics. It would be amazing to see this catch on-- ie radical cleric Rick Warren or radical cleric Pat Robertson. Call these monsters out for exactly what they are.

Good, such opinions have no place in modern society.

For all I care, they should've deported those against gay marriage to an island.

I imagine you have a much different opinion on this limit on free speech, despite it being almost the exact same lever, pulled for a slightly different purpose. Ban all the people who don't agree with how I see things!

 

[Drencrom]

I don't think you have a grasp of what is happening here at all. Moderate muslims are not negatively affected by these measures. If anything, they'll probably be just as happy to see the radical clerics ejected.

The 'problem' isn't hate speech laws, the problem is the hate speech. These clerics aren't raging because they feel 'othered', they're raging because they're fucking bonkers.

Hear, hear!

 

[KHarvey16]

It's fairly simple to me, freedom of speech ends when you attack freedom of speech.

How does a person attack freedom of speech?

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

freedom of speech is only relevant to citizens.