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G/A/F? Catholics defied church leadership in same-sex marriage debacle

Replicant

Member
Background story: Australian citizens are about to have a vote whether or not Australia as a whole will allow same-sex marriage.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...of-samesex-marriage-poll-20170825-gy49ea.html

But the polling suggests the Catholic leadership is out of touch with its base, 66 per cent of whom said they were inclined to vote for same-sex marriage in the coming postal survey.

The results echoed a survey by Crosby/Textor in 2014, which also found two thirds of Catholics backed same-sex marriage, and put the overall level of support at 72 per cent.

Glad to know that the Catholics here are far more forward-thinking than the folks in Vatican. I hope this translates to actual result when the votes are counted.
 

WaterAstro

Member
Well, being Catholic isn't a membership card. Catholics who don't follow the Catholic teachings stop being Catholic.
 

cameron

Member
Good news. 2/3 isn't too shabby.

Monica Doumit, spokeswoman for the Coalition for Marriage, said despite the poll results people of faith "continue to be concerned" about the implications of same-sex marriage for religious freedom.

"This is about more than the narrow protections offered to professional clergy," she said. Rather, it was about the ability for religious people to express their view on marriage without fear of intimidation.
I've heard this song before.
 

duckroll

Member
Well, being Catholic isn't a membership card. Catholics who don't follow the Catholic teachings stop being Catholic.

Nothing about Catholic teaching encourages people to force beliefs into law. Most people recognize the importance of the separation of Church and State.
 
Catholic,

And I couldn't care less about who marries who. Let everybody get married to whoever they want to get married to, happiness for everybody!

Seriously, Jesus didn't stutter on that "treat others the way you want to be treated" thing. Love your enemy, as they are also a child of God. Pretty clear cut, you are called to love everyone, no exceptions...
 

MrOogieBoogie

BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
Catholics are notoriously liberal on many social topics, which is both awesome and annoyingly hypocritical as they oftentimes give undue legitimacy to the religion just by affiliation. Whatever.
 

Pastry

Banned
Catholics are notoriously liberal on many social topics, which is both awesome and annoyingly hypocritical as they oftentimes give undue legitimacy to the religion just by affiliation. Whatever.

Raised catholic and went to catholic school my whole life and this is pretty much how I view it also. Many Catholics, even clergy I have met, are fairly liberal.
 
Raised catholic and went to catholic school my whole life and this is pretty much how I view it also. Many Catholics, even clergy I have met, are fairly liberal.

In Australia the religious divide in conservative v progressive started to change in the late 1960s when a senior member of the CoE said it was okay to vote Labour.
Since then religious issues like abortion, IVF and homosexuality became less and less polarising and essentially de-politicised since the 80s (thank god).
SSM is the final frontier but not in a conservative v progressive way. It has actually been a fight between the factions in Labour.

The problem has been the catholic church and conservative catholics who have had a vice like grip on the leadership of the shoppies union and hence a substantial chunk of the labour party until recently. They've always been conservative and fervently anti-SSM. This is why Gillard never pushed for it, Rudd never pushed for it, Keating never was asked about it, Hawke etc..
The funny thing is that this opposition to SSM is what got the union leaders rolled and they only changed their stance from anti to neutral last year by the new 'secular' leadership.

SSM will happen eventually. Especially now that both parties are open to it and can see what their constituency are saying. They know who'll butter their bread in 2019.
 

WaterAstro

Member
I don't understand what this means. Are you saying that the 2/3rds who would vote for same-sex marriage aren't catholic?

In terms of religious beliefs, if a Catholic stops believing in the traditions and liturgy of the church, which includes what the Vatican teach, they stop being Catholics. It's like the 1500 reformation where Martin Luther broke off many Catholics from the Catholic church to follow their own beliefs to form the Protestant movement.

This doesn't mean that if they vote for same-sex marriage means they actually believe in it. There are many Catholics that prefer to be passive and support the legislation in order to avoid conflict. It's up to each person's mind whether they actually support same-sex marriage or not because it's extremely against the Catholic teaching to believe in same-sex marriage.

the Church would be out of business if that were the case because the majority of Catholics don't give a shit

The Catholic Church isn't concerned about money or greed. A lot of people broke off from the Church, and it didn't bend the Catholic teaching in order to be more inclusive.
 
Not really surprising. Didn't like 98% of American Catholic women use/approve of using contraception which is against their teaching?

The church and laymen seem to pretty much never see eye to eye.
 
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BTW this is Bill Shorten the former catholic-cum-protestant leader of the opposition doing a photo-op jog for SSM.
 

danm999

Member
And they wonder why no religion finally overtook Catholicism as the single biggest group in the most recent Australian census.
 
The thing that annoys me about Catholics (and I can say this after being raised Catholic and coming from a hard-core Catholic family) is that they'll believe in the right thing personally and be perfectly normal liberal nice people.

But then they will say fuck all to stand up for what they really believe in against the church.

I never understood why Catholics weren't/aren't protesting at the back of church and kicking off a world of shit for the Vatican with some of the stuff that's gone on and is going on. But no, they just ignore it and wait for, 'the church', to say something or change it's stance. Milling around talking shit and buying 50p trinkets in that weird little shop thing you always get.

If I ask people, they just say stupid shit like,
"Well it's thousands of years old and it can't change overnight",
"It's a slow moving organisation, it'll get there one day"

- it infuriates me.

I'd be like, you don't represent my religion you idiots - change it now!.. I guess it gets complicated when you actually believe there's a direct line back from St. Peter - but shouldn't that make you question things just a little bit?

I can only speak for UK/English Catholics - 95% of them are like this.
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Background story: Australian citizens are about to have a vote whether or not Australia as a whole will allow same-sex marriage.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...of-samesex-marriage-poll-20170825-gy49ea.html





Glad to know that the Catholics here are far more forward-thinking than the folks in Vatican. I hope this translates to actual result when the votes are counted.
Not surprising in the slightest.

Ireland already shown that actually, majority Catholic countries can separate their own personal moral and religious compass on gay marriage and let others have equal rights because it's the right thing to do.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Nice.

Ps can someone tell me what g/a/f means

In this context, it should be "Gay As Fuck". To suggest to anyone against gay marriage being 'gay as fuck' is an awesome thing. I like to be educated as fuck, talented as fuck, skilled as fuck and gay as fuck too.

NeoGayAsFuck, where intolerance and bigotry to homosexuality is getting the boot. Although, I think saying fuck too many times might be a bit excessive!

A bit more on topic

A majority of Catholics, Christians and other religious groups support same-sex marriage and are inclined to vote for it in the forthcoming postal survey, according to new polling commissioned by advocates.

This is good. It's like this short analysis of British polling to homosexuality http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/ If you run good educational campaigns, open debate and keep it up for years on years societal attitudes can change. It'll never be 100% in favour, but to marginalise intolerance and bigotry is the end goal, as well as obviously getting legal rights in place. Legal rights at least overrule the remaining bigots and further marginalise them to only have their speech. Especially as we started out from a place of homosexuality itself actually being illegal/punishable. Like it still is in some places in the world.

Things don't change overnight, so it's routinely a long-haul battle of ideas. Science being on the side of homosexuality has seriously helped in the last number of generations. You won't find any psychologist or biologist worth their money who can't explain why homosexuality isn't a choice and morality, for the most part, should stay out of people's bedrooms and love lives (a caveat always of consenting adults, obviously, nothing illegal or harmful ~ morality/law does have a place to protect against illegal/harmful actions).
 
Anyway, good to see Australia not be controlled by political monkies.

Eh it still kind of is. Despite widespread support, parliament is refusing to just reverse the 1994 changes to the Marriage Act that explicitly prevent SSM, and is forcing a country-wide voluntary non-binding postal vote. But hey, progress.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Lol. Are you a Catholic? Because I am, support SSM and (as far as I know) I've not been excommunicated.
Same here. I'm Catholic, godfather to two, civilly married to a man.. and the Church hasn't come after me. Hmm.

These debates also conveniently ignore the fact that Holy Matrimony and Civil Marriage are two separate, distinct entities. I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholics are in favor of the latter without that support automatically carrying-over to the former.
 
No one would have thought here in Ireland that a country once so heavily Catholic would smash through the Same Sex Marriage Referendum we had. We got there and I'm sure Australia will too.
 

patapuf

Member
Well, being Catholic isn't a membership card. Catholics who don't follow the Catholic teachings stop being Catholic.


It may depend from country to country. But in Switzerland i have to send in a written and signed letter that i leave the catholic chruch and renounce all privileges that come with it.

It's literally like leaving a club. No one gives a shit if you believe in it. As long as you don't quit, you are still part of the club.
 

Sorc3r3r

Member
Background story: Australian citizens are about to have a vote whether or not Australia as a whole will allow same-sex marriage.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...of-samesex-marriage-poll-20170825-gy49ea.html





Glad to know that the Catholics here are far more forward-thinking than the folks in Vatican. I hope this translates to actual result when the votes are counted.

There is a lot of confusion here.
Our religion is in clear opposition to this issue as much as it is to abortion, this will not change ever, its not the Vatican.
What Catholic thinks or vote is not important it will not have any repercussions on the Tradition, it will have a impact on our world and future tough for the good or the bad.
Instead they put themselves in a state of disobedience.
In reality what the majority(lol)thinks is good doesn't mean anything, now, before or in the future, what's good is out of the realm of opinions or votes.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Well, being Catholic isn't a membership card. Catholics who don't follow the Catholic teachings stop being Catholic.

This assumes that the Catholic Church hasn't morphed it's teaching over the 2000 year history, and that Catholics through out the ages a ridgely believed the same thing.

It's utter nonsense, and I've always abhored the logic jump people make with the cafeteria Catholics nonsense.

Not to mention it isn't as if the Pope past or present has spoken ex cathedra on the matter.

Hell the only two times that's happened since the idea became official it's been about Mary.
 

Oriel

Member
Same here. I'm Catholic, godfather to two, civilly married to a man.. and the Church hasn't come after me. Hmm.

These debates also conveniently ignore the fact that Holy Matrimony and Civil Marriage are two separate, distinct entities. I wouldn't be surprised if many Catholics are in favor of the latter without that support automatically carrying-over to the former.

Yup, a Catholic solution to a Catholic problem. Whatever, if it allows people to be legally married in the eyes of the state (which let's face it, is the only type of marriage that matters) then it shouldn't matter to anyone if the CC maintains a ban on SSM in its churches.
 

Oriel

Member
maDWhNP.gif


Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Basically.

Not our fault that we are sometimes more awesome than Church leadership.

There was a way of formally leaving the Church up until recently but it was such a cumbersome and bureacratic process very few ever bothered. IIRC a bishop had to approve such a request.

Edit:
The motu proprio Omnium in mentem of 26 October 2009 removed from the canons in question all reference to an act of formal defection from the Catholic Church.[5][7][8] Accordingly, "it is no longer appropriate to enter attempts at formal defection in the sacramental records since this juridic action is now abolished. "[9]

In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church.[10] However, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin declared on 12 October 2010 that it intended to keep a register of those who expressed the wish to defect.[10][11] Since this fell short of making an annotation in the baptismal register, CountMeOut (an association in the archdiocese that had been promoting formal defections from the Catholic Church) thereupon ceased to provide defection forms.[12][13]

Although the act of "formal defection" from the Catholic Church has thus been abolished, public or "notorious" (in the canonical sense)[14] defection from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church is of course possible, as is expressly recognized in the Code of Canon Law.[15] Even defection that is not known publicly is subject to the automatic spiritual penalty of excommunication laid down in canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church
 

Audioboxer

Member
No one would have thought here in Ireland that a country once so heavily Catholic would smash through the Same Sex Marriage Referendum we had. We got there and I'm sure Australia will too.

Younger generations are by in large much more open and tolerant than older, which is helping shift societies. Partly thanks to education too as younger minds develop. I can make an observational bet, that in most cases if you find someone aggressively opposed to something like homosexuality they'll be an older religious person. Not all, no, but the stats routinely show changing the mind of an older person is the most challenging. Mix religion with old age and it can be a hell of a challenge. All of the Abrahamic religions have seriously patriarchal, bigoted, violent or discriminatory teachings and statements, especially around homosexuality. Of course, as many point out the Churches obsess over gay men, conveniently often ignoring lesbians. I wonder why? Might it be a combination of projection (some of them end up being gay if not paedophiles) and lusting for female on female because lesbian sex is gratifying to them? Hypocrisy in the Churches, imagine that! If you want to talk disgust sensitivity in patriarchal and bigoted men, yes, the act of thinking about penises and men having sex is up top. As I said though, many damn well love those lesbians! A hugely funny take on this too is how they probably enjoy a good bit of anal sex with a female being the star of receiving. Anal sex with men though? Blasphemy! Ban it! Heresy!

A lot of younger people are either not religious at all, or they subscribe more to what I like to coin cafeteria-Catholicism/Christianity/Islam. Pick the things you like, ignore the rest, regardless of how dogmatic your Book/Church/Priest/Imam or so on is. Heck, lots of the people that want to call themselves Christian or Catholic these days and say they believe in God won't even attend Church or attend it regularly. Some of them I genuinely think just hold onto the descriptor Christian/Catholic as their parents told them they were a "Christian/Catholic child" and it's just kind of stuck to them. All of that shouldn't really bother anyone, religion should be a private matter, an individual matter. It's when it (religion/religious people) tries to be a moral busy body political organisation and get in the way of progress, that people hit back/criticise/satirise and attempt to educate.

My parents are both religious and I was raised, Christian. My dad, however, is Catholic, and is against gay marriage and thinks homosexuality is a sin. Thankfully he keeps that bigotry quiet in day to day life and when I see them and have a religious debate he's not aggressive to me but does try to deflect saying "I don't hate the people, I just don't agree with what they do". In on itself, a hugely frustrating deflection. "I'm going to allow this book to think on behalf of me and do whatever I can to bend over backwards to be a polite bigot". He says the Priest and Church he goes to openly states how homosexuality is a sin and that's the word of God, the Bible and the Church. As many religious people will do. We're taught this, it's the word of God, we have to accept it. Funnily enough my Dad votes for the gayest political party up here. So yeah, at least in that sense he's furthering social progress on a political level. Most political parties in the UK will support gay marriage though, even if there is individual bigots. UK widespread belief is just too tolerant now coming out hard on gay marriage/homosexuality will tank your popularity. Look at the Conservatives getting into bed with the DUP and the uproar across the rUK.

If you go on https://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and look up many Conservative MPs you will still see their individual voting records on homosexuality/gay marriage are terrible.
 

Linkark07

Banned
Good on them. Australian Church leadership is a fucking thrash fire, but almost every individual Catholic I know are good people

What a difference compared where I live. Here, almost all Catholics hate same sex marriage and are doing their best to force authorities to not legalize it.
 

appaws

Banned
It's no true Scotsman nonsense, the goalpost will forever move so it's best not to try to make sense of it.

No its not. People always get that wrong. No True Scotsman does not apply here...

Being a Scotsman is inherent, being a Catholic involves giving intellectual assent to certain claims made by the church, which is not inherent and is in fact a matter of choice.
 
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