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Georgia and Russia at war

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C

Cdammen

Member
What the hell? Russia is pissed off because some peacekeepers were hurt, the Olympic truce is broken and the conflict is escalating. Several villages have been destroyed and the capital is getting hammered. Watch Russia Today's LIVE Stream.

This could escalate into a full-blown conflict :/

News articles

What is South Ossetia?

Wiki said:
South Ossetia is a region in the South Caucasus, formerly the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, part of which has been de facto independent from Georgia since its declaration of independence as the Republic of South Ossetia during the Georgian-Ossetian conflict early in the 1990s. Its independence has not been diplomatically recognized by any United Nations member-state – which continues to regard South Ossetia as part of Georgia. Georgia has retained control over parts of the region's eastern and southern districts where it created, in April 2007, a Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia) headed by ethnic Ossetians (former members of the separatist government) which would negotiate with central Georgian authorities regarding its final status and conflict resolution.
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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Wiki said:
On August 8, 2008, Russian television stations reported that Russian troops moved into Georgia's "breakaway" South Ossetia region. Georgian troops launched a major military offensive Friday to regain control over the breakaway province of South Ossetia and the president accused Russia, which has close ties to the separatists, of bombing Georgian territory.
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LIVE Stream: http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today
 
K

Kildace

Member
Cdammen said:
This could escalate into a full-blown conflict :/
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I'm not sure it could. Georgia doesn't have powerful western allies that would be pissed off by this. The UN are going to send both Medvedev and the Georgian president a few strongly worded letters, Russia will take over the region and that'll be that.
 
T

Thyrus

Member
The bear is pissed off now, those georgians had better start praying that russia will show some restraint.
 
D

dionysus

Yaldog
Kildace said:
I'm not sure it could. Georgia doesn't have powerful western allies that would be pissed off by this. The UN are going to send both Medvedev and the Georgian president a few strongly worded letters, Russia will take over the region and that'll be that.
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While there are no official treaties, NATO issued a statement giving Georgia a timetable to join the alliance. They have many powerful sympathizers, the most vocal being the US but the EU as well.

And I love how Russia granted citizenship to all the rebels so they could rush in under the guise of protecting their citizens.
 
K

KRS7

Member
Russia, with the while Chechnya thing, should be the last country supporting a break-away province. They should be supporting Georgia's right to control their territory.
 
U

Uncle

Member
KRS7 said:
Russia, with the while Chechnya thing, should be the last country to be defending a break-away province. They should be supporting Georgia's right to control their territory.
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I'm thinking they are supporting South Ossetia's right to independently join their North Ossetian brethren as a part of the Russian Federation.
 
D

dionysus

Yaldog
Uncle said:
I'm thinking they are supporting South Ossetia's right to independently join their North Ossetian brethren as a part of the Russian Federation.
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Right is the wrong word. There is no government or organization I know of that recognizes people's right to secede from a country and join another. Just look at Russia and Chechnya. In fact, I am pretty sure that is the definition of treason, and is punishable by death in most countries. Rights are things like the right to life or pursuit of happiness (with limits like not causing harm to others, society, or the nation).

Rights are also different from moral values. One may think it morally correct to allow a people to secede, and often it is, but it is not a legal right.
 
U

Uncle

Member
dionysus said:
Right is the wrong word. There is no government or organization I know of that recognizes people's right to secede from a country and join another. Just look at Russia and Chechnya. In fact, I am pretty sure that is the definition of treason, and is punishable by death in most countries. Rights are things like the right to life or pursuit of happiness (with limits like not causing harm to others, society, or the nation).

Rights are also different from moral values. One may think it morally correct to allow a people to secede, and often it is, but it is not a legal right.
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IIRC there is a mention in the universal human rights declaration that people have a right to a nationality and a right to change that nationality. And looks like the Russians think that these minorities in Georgia should do exactly that. I admit, it will get funny if they ever want to be independent (assuming that Russia will get those lands).
 
D

dionysus

Yaldog
Uncle said:
IIRC there is a mention in the universal human rights declaration that people have a right to a nationality and a right to change that nationality. And looks like the Russians think that these minorities in Georgia should do exactly that. I admit, it will get funny if they ever want to be independent (assuming that Russia will get those lands).
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Interesting, but that could just mean the right to apply for citizenship elsewhere. Does that include the right to change the sovereignty of an entire region?
 
S

Sol..

I am Wayne Brady.
So the whole army is like pounding one separatist? wow..that sucks. Unless he's going for a world record or somethin'.

but on a more serious note, US.....whatsyomovesucka?!
 
C

Cheebs

Member
dionysus said:
Right is the wrong word. There is no government or organization I know of that recognizes people's right to secede from a country and join another. Just look at Russia and Chechnya. In fact, I am pretty sure that is the definition of treason, and is punishable by death in most countries. Rights are things like the right to life or pursuit of happiness (with limits like not causing harm to others, society, or the nation).

Rights are also different from moral values. One may think it morally correct to allow a people to secede, and often it is, but it is not a legal right.
Click to expand...

But even if it is not an official "right", it is the right thing to do. Russia is a fucked up mess these days. Putin is a dictator who refused to give up power and placed a figurehead when he had to "step down" but he controls the country with a iron fist regardless and any journalist who stands in their way is killed off. No sane person would want to live under Russia's government today, All Russia did in the 90's to wipe away the era of communism has been falling apart the last few years.
 
N

navanman

Crown Prince of Custom Firmware
Looks like it has begun. According to Sky News, Russian 58th army has invaded Georgia.
 
D

dionysus

Yaldog
Cheebs said:
But even if it is not an official "right", it is the right thing to do. Russia is a fucked up mess these days. Putin is a dictator who refused to give up power and placed a figurehead when he had to "step down" but he controls the country with a iron fist and any journalist who stands in their way is killed off. No sane person would want to live under Russia, All Russia did in the 90's to wipe away the era of communism has been falling apart the last few years.
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Erm, the separatists in South Ossetia want to leave Georgia and join Russia. What are you talking about?...And I think you are correct in your characterization of Russia by the way, but apparently at least some people in this region want to be a part of Putin's remade Russia.

It is not just Putin either, a majority of people in the high level government positions have ties to the old KGB.
 
S

Steeven

Member
Sol.. said:
So the whole army is like pounding one separatist? wow..that sucks. Unless he's going for a world record or somethin'.

but on a more serious note, US.....whatsyomovesucka?!
Click to expand...


I'm curious as well. There are like 1200 US soldiers stationed near Tbilisi if I'm correct, imagine what would happen if some of them die in a Russian bombing attack :x. Shit could hit the fan fast.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
dionysus said:
Erm, the separatists in South Ossetia want to leave Georgia and join Russia. What are you talking about?...And I think you are correct in your characterization of Russia by the way, but apparently at least some people in this region want to be a part of Putin's remade Russia.

It is not just Putin either, a majority of people in the high level government positions have ties to the old KGB.
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I never read the OP just wanted to vent about how Russia pisses me off lately to be honest. Well regardless my stance on Russia stands, as it has for the past 2-3 years. Thread can act as an excuse for me to vent about them. ;)

I've seen people at gaf defend Putin who know absolutely nothing about him, sigh.
 
U

Uncle

Member
dionysus said:
Interesting, but that could just mean the right to apply for citizenship elsewhere. Does that include the right to change the sovereignty of an entire region?
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter, since it's not binding or anything. It's more of an official "wouldn't it be nice if everybody were nice to each other, think about it" type of thing. As for actual legal stuff, South Ossetias has declared independent, but no one recognizied it. So I guess UN sees this as Russia invading Georgia. I bet they'll send a really harsh letter to them.
 
Forsete

Forsete

Gold Member
Sadly the world police does not have a voice anymore. Russia would just go: Iraq, lol?

Bad Russia, BAD!
 
N

NH Apache

Banned
Russia today says over 1000 civilians killed already.

Also, Russia states that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing.
 
S

Stevek211

Member
NH Apache said:
Russia today says over 1000 civilians killed already.

Also, Russia states that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing.
Click to expand...

Although the truth is the first victim in any war. The fact that that is being even mentioned is quite worrying.
 
S

Sol..

I am Wayne Brady.
NH Apache said:
Russia today says over 1000 civilians killed already.

Also, Russia states that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing.
Click to expand...

wat?

Shit just got real.
 
D

delirium

Member
Sol.. said:
wat?

Shit just got real.
Click to expand...

I would take it with a grain of salt though. First thing you do in battle is try and release any propaganda that discredits and demonizes your enemy.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
dionysus said:
Right is the wrong word. There is no government or organization I know of that recognizes people's right to secede from a country and join another.
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And that's what's wrong with the world. So many conflicts would have been solved with a laissez faire apprach to territory and seccession rights.

That said, there are a number of states that recognise the right to self determination and independence for minority nationalities - the United Kingdom for one. It has been the policy of the Westminster parliament to accept any majority approved independence movement among the four constituent countries.

States should not be inviolable - they are a tool of nations and nothing more. Kosovo had the right to independence. South Ossetia should have the right to self determination. Basque, Scotland, Kurdistan, Chechnya Aland and every other country help captive within the bounds of a foreign state should have these rights.
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
hmm, very confusing reports going around at the moment. Though you can probably judge the truth of the Russian reports by what they do next, if they really are just re-enforcing their peacekeepers things should die down.
 
M

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
bad%20boys%202%20SPLASH.jpg
 
UltimaKilo

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Karakand said:
People should have the right to determination, not to to create more damn ethno-linguistic nation-states.
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Blah blah, was "should" is not relevant and just your opinion...

putin1.jpg
 
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