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Georgia and Russia at war

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Azih

Member
but does somewhat paint things in shades of grey.
No, no it really doesn't.

The whole world knows what Russia is like and how its run,
You know I've never understood that argument. It means that powerful nations can act as horribly as they want and everybody else has to roll over for them because heck "that's just how those Chinese/Russian/Americans are doncha know". It's a variation on the "it's your own fault you got raped" argument.
 

Steeven

Member
Truant said:
How convenient it must be to dispose of a country when everyone is busy watching people run and swim.


The sad thing is most networks paid loads of money for the rights of the Olympic Games, so they must air it, making this conflict second rate.
 

thefro

Member
Fragamemnon said:
In addition to what Macam said, I think Russia is also sort of looking to discredit NATO and diminish their influence in the region. Every former Soviet republic flirting with that alliance and its members is always going to secoind guess their commitment to their countries' independence and autonomy after this war.

It's actually going to strengthen NATO because joining offers protection against big bad Russia doing what they did to Georgia.

Then we have the Serbia/Austria World War I scenario that we have to stay away from
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Article.aspx?id=2555

provides some perspective to what we're seeing. failure goes all-around, and blaming Russia alone is a tad myopic.

However, other members of the alliance, particularly Germany, may balk at prospective new members that violate ceasefire agreements, invade ethnic enclaves, and invite a war with Russia to settle old scores in South Ossetia. Had Saakashvili taken the same course of action as a full NATO member, Georgia could invoke Article Five of the North Atlantic Treaty. The United States and NATO would be obliged to either declare war on Russia or rupture the alliance.

Looking forward, Saakashvili can hope to gain little from this gambit save a de facto pull-back in U.S. support, increased estrangement from NATO, and an aggressive Russian neighbor in full control of South Ossetia. Despite worrisome indications of Saakashvili's eroding commitment to democratic governance, Washington had gambled that the prospect of NATO membership and continued foreign assistance would prevent his government from acting rashly in the face of increased Russian pressure. This gamble has clearly failed.
 

Macam

Banned
thefro said:
It's actually going to strengthen NATO because joining offers protection against big bad Russia doing what they did to Georgia.

I would hardly call what NATO is currently doing "protection".
 
So what exactly is the point of this war?
Will Russia overthrow the Georgian government to replace them by a pro-Russian one? Or are they just going to annex the country altogether? Or is it just a way of showing their military strength with no other intention then being intimidating?
 

besada

Banned
laserbeam said:
Russia based on borders has about half of Georgia occupied

CNN reporting that Russian troops are outside of Tbilisi, but not haven't entered the city.

They're also showing some video from Abkhazia. Russian troops still moving.
 

laserbeam

Banned
Souldriver said:
So what exactly is the point of this war?
Will Russia overthrow the Georgian government to replace them by a pro-Russian one? Or are they just going to annex the country altogether? Or is it just a way of showing their military strength with no other intention then being intimidating?

A Pro-Russian Government would be the same as annexing the country since the pro-Russian Government would certainly kill any and all NATO negotiations and then suckle on Mother Russias breast
 

Forsete

Member
Hmm, what are they planning? Are they going to overthrow the government? Dont do it, Georgians will be pissed off, let them take care of that themselves.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Macam said:
I would hardly call what NATO is currently doing "protection".

True, but had Georgia been a full member of NATO this would probably be playing out a little bit differently.
 

Azih

Member
Fragamemnon said:
If we can deal with the horrific free market totalitarians in China we can deal with the far more moderate Russians.
Comparing the Chinese approach to the Uyghur minority and Tibet and the Russian approach to Chechnya shows the Chinese to be far far more 'moderate' than the Russians.

And I think that the Olympics being held in Beijing are a travesty.
 
Souldriver said:
So what exactly is the point of this war?
Will Russia overthrow the Georgian government to replace them by a pro-Russian one? Or are they just going to annex the country altogether? Or is it just a way of showing their military strength with no other intention then being intimidating?

That's what I'm wondering. It would seem to be a ruse: Go in and take over half of Georgia and if Georgia foments an attack, Russia would have no reason to establish a pro-Russian government.
 

Uncle

Member
Kinan said:
There is no neutrality with Russia if you share the same border. You are either vassal or enemy.


Hey, I resent that. Finland has a long traditon of trying to bow to the west without mooning the east. :p
 
Had Saakashvili taken the same course of action as a full NATO member, Georgia could invoke Article Five of the North Atlantic Treaty. The United States and NATO would be obliged to either declare war on Russia or rupture the alliance.

That's a bit scary.
 

Uncle

Member
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-08-11_111263932.html

(ANSA) - Rome, August 11 - Italy is ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene in the conflict between Georgia and Russia, Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Monday.

The minister said he would consider deploying Italian soldiers to the region in the event that French Foreign Minsiter Bernard Kouchner recommends EU involvement after his mediation mission to Tbilisi and Moscow this week.
 

BlackMage

Banned
So what is Georgia's move here? They can't win against Russia. If they continue to attack they will just waste lives won't they? It seems like the only option is diplomacy for them. What is Russia trying to accomplish beyond South Ossetia.. So many questions about what's going on. I'm not sure the motives on both sides at all at this point.
 

Forsete

Member
doodyball5 said:
So what is Georgia's move here? They can't win against Russia. If they continue to attack they will just waste lives won't they? It seems like the only option is diplomacy for them. What is Russia trying to accomplish beyond South Ossetia.. So many questions about what's going on. I'm not sure the motives on both sides at all at this point.

Georgia is trying to get a cease fire going but Russia said no.. Russia might be waiting on a complete surrender from Georgia, that way they can dictate the terms of what happens to the different regions.
 

Rur0ni

Member
Uncle said:
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-08-11_111263932.html

(ANSA) - Rome, August 11 - Italy is ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene in the conflict between Georgia and Russia, Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Monday.

The minister said he would consider deploying Italian soldiers to the region in the event that French Foreign Minsiter Bernard Kouchner recommends EU involvement after his mediation mission to Tbilisi and Moscow this week.
Not sure what the point of sending them to South Ossetia would be, that would be behind current Russian lines.
 

Steeven

Member
Eh, what is all this coverage? CNN says Russians did NOT enter Gori, but went back to Ossetia. Also in other parts of Georgia the Russians are supposed to be heading back to Abkhazia and Ossetia. How can they enter Tbilisi if they aren't around?
 

Steeven

Member
Rur0ni said:
Not sure what the point of sending them to South Ossetia would be, that would be behind current Russian lines.

They say troops are available for a peace keeping mission, if necessary.
 

BlackMage

Banned
So Russia wants a full surrender so that South Ossetia gets its independence or do they want something more? Seems shady to me.
 

avaya

Member
What is all this rubbish about Ukraine?

The Russian's won't invade Ukraine because they have an army that is essentially 50% of the Russian army. It would be a serious conflict, not the bug-smashing affair that is going on right now. The Russian's would incur incredible losses if they attempted the same policy with Ukraine. The cost of such a war would far outweigh any benefits.
 

Rur0ni

Member
avaya said:
What is all this rubbish about Ukraine?

The Russian's won't invade Ukraine because they have an army that is essentially 50% of the Russian army. It would be a serious conflict, not the bug-smashing affair that is going on right now. The Russian's would incur incredible losses if they attempted the same policy with Ukraine. The cost of such a war would far outweigh any benefits.
Will Russia allow Ukraine to join NATO? :O
 

laserbeam

Banned
avaya said:
What is all this rubbish about Ukraine?

The Russian's won't invade Ukraine because they have an army that is essentially 50% of the Russian army. It would be a serious conflict, not the bug-smashing affair that is going on right now. The Russian's would incur incredible losses if they attempted the same policy with Ukraine. The cost of such a war would far outweigh any benefits.

Russia has threatened Ukraine with Force if they continue down the path to NATO as recent as June. Russian Politicians are suggesting Russia sieze Sevastapol and claim it as Russian lands due to the coming removal of the Navy from the area.
 

zoku88

Member
ShOcKwAvE said:
OK, the comparison was size, not development. The US still thought Vietnam was too small to pose a huge challenge.
Yea, but see.. with a modern country, size DOES matter. I mean, if its well developed, you can pretty much take a country out by attacking its infrastructure (electricity, etc.)

Hence, the bigger country (Russia) has an easier time targeting the infrastructure in the smaller country (Georgia) and thus has an easier time winning.

This is more like Germany vs Belgium here. Germany, the bigger country, steamrolled over them.
 

Rur0ni

Member
~Devil Trigger~ said:
well they're currently giving them(and every nation in the region) reason to join NATO
But as we've seen with Georgia, NATO countries don't want to give others membership if it's gonna bring trouble. Georgia is on the brink of being completely taken over, and the most aggressive thing we've heard so far is putting Italian troops in South Ossetia? :lol
 

Rur0ni

Member
Georgian troops are falling back to defend the capital city of Tbilisi, following the fall of Gori. Secretary of the Georgian Security Council, Alexander Lomaia, said that the Georgian Army had been told to stand fast and hold the city of Mtskheta, 15 miles from the capital. A U.S. military official told CNN that Russian attacks on Georgia -- including radars and communication systems -- have devastated the country's command and control system to the point where Georgian leaders may not have a clear idea of the situation on the ground.

The Israeli newspaper Maariv reported that the US was supplying Georgia with arms. According to the paper, the US is hiring Russian-made freight planes belonging to UTI Worldwide Inc. to transport arms and ammunition to Georgia. The paper says the Pentagon is redirecting supplies to Tbilisi that were earmarked for Iraq.
I guess that's the extent of U.S support that Georgia will get.
 

Tamanon

Banned
GenericPseudonym said:
He sounds about as biased as anyone else.

If you want perspective watch BBC World News not listen to fat radio pundits.

I'm pretty sure he was joking, Alex Jones is a known idiot Truther.
 

avaya

Member
Rur0ni said:
Will Russia allow Ukraine to join NATO? :O

They just tell Gazprom to cut gas supplies and Transneft to stop pumping into the Druzbha pipeline. Eventually this has to stop though because the relationship between the consumers and the producers is symbiotic and the Russian's would run out of money.

Russia can't really stop Ukraine from joining NATO. It is sabre rattling in the extreme. You can not begin to imagine the war that would happen between Russia and Ukraine, it would be a horrific conflict.

There ain't nothing Putin can do to Viktor and Yulia. Well apart from a winter or two of total discontent.
 
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