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Gran Turismo Sport Beta Thread

farisr

Member
And how does Campaign fit into all this, given that it's apparently not a traditional GT career?
Until they say otherwise, this is what everyone should expect from campaign mode.

Campaign Mode – 10 Beginner’s School, 35 Circuit Experience (track learning), 62 Mission Challenges, 10 Racing
Etiquette lessons

Basically glorified license tests with some track specific lessons. Whether it'll be required before going online or not remains to be seen (racing etiquette probably will be), but I don't think it's going to matter much in the end in regards to overall progression.
 
I haven't played iRacing. This is great insight. Thank you.

Forza started a similar idea in 6, two ranking system that define in what league against what other people you get to race.

The main problem why that didn't work (or not well, definitely not for me) was that they still used the performance index system for most races to restrict what cars are allowed. Their PP-system works pretty good for predicting lap times, so 2 cars with some tuning added to it that have exactly 600pi will be very close in qualifying on most tracks, add some track variety and they will be even closer on average... BUT what if my 600pi car is a very light caterham that makes up for the lower hp with fantastic cornering speeds and the other guy's 600pi car is a heavy mustang that is slow in the corners but fast at the end of the straights and you put many of such different cars in a race?!??
It leads to a lot of risky overtaking (the Caterham will try to overtake in a series of corners, the Mustang will try to brake late on the straight) and also very different brake points that you then also have to predict if you're following the guy in front of you closely - if you do it wrong, you bump him off.

In real racing cars follow homologation rules. The prediction of lap times for cars following these rules is sometimes even less perfect than Forza's pi system, but the racing can be closer because the strengths and weaknesses of the cars aren't too different.

So, I hope that GT Sport will do that right and balance the car classes, weight and power restrictions for the individual cars and races correctly ("to enter this race you need to add 30hp and 50kg to your car, tires must be...").
 
Forza started a similar idea in 6, two ranking system that define in what league against what other people you get to race.

The main problem why that didn't work (or not well, definitely not for me) was that they still used the performance index system for most races to restrict what cars are allowed. Their PP-system works pretty good for predicting lap times, so 2 cars with some tuning added to it that have exactly 600pi will be very close in qualifying on most tracks, add some track variety and they will be even closer on average... BUT what if my 600pi car is a very light caterham that makes up for the lower hp with fantastic cornering speeds and the other guy's 600pi car is a heavy mustang that is slow in the corners but fast at the end of the straights and you put many of such different cars in a race?!??
It leads to a lot of risky overtaking (the Caterham will try to overtake in a series of corners, the Mustang will try to brake late on the straight) and also very different brake points that you then also have to predict if you're following the guy in front of you closely - if you do it wrong, you bump him off.

In real racing cars follow homologation rules. The prediction of lap times for cars following these rules is sometimes even less perfect than Forza's pi system, but the racing can be closer because the strengths and weaknesses of the cars aren't too different.

So, I hope that GT Sport will do that right and balance the car classes, weight and power restrictions for the individual cars and races correctly ("to enter this race you need to add 30hp and 50kg to your car, tires must be...").

The beta has BoP (Balance of Power) instead of the old PP system. Not sure how much better it will be, but it is different in that it changes the weight, power % and tires automically for you. This hopefully reduced some of the exploit loop holes with the PP system. Otherwise, the easiest way to get a bunch of people to have close races is put them in the same car. I hope there are lots of spec series with tuning locked or minimal settings.
 

Mobius 1

Member
The campaign mode is likely going to be a combination of race events against AI, just like all the other GT's and probably some license test like challenges thrown in to better groom players to race online and obey the regulations and become more sportsmanlike. That is my guess.

For those who haven't played iRacing, let me tell you that the single most important thing added to GT with this release is the Sportsmanship rating system. iRacing has this and this is one of the main reasons you can have high quality racing experiences with complete strangers and not have to join leagues or race with only a small group of friends. There is nothing special about the average iRacing driver v. the average GT driver. The main factor as to why you get bumper cars online in GT and people trying their best to drive clean in iRacing is because of the sportsmanship rating penalty of of driving like a dick. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the physics, damage, etc.

Without a sportsmanship rating, there is no incentive to not always try to get first place no matter how bad you smash your car. Cause it is a video game and you will never have to buy a new car or accidentally break your ribs, so without consequence, people naturally gravitate toward high risk behavior. This results in a shitty racing experience. Sportsmanship is that consequence. Drive like a dick, get forced to race against other dicks or even locked out of the higher class races. If you drive a Hyundai like a dick, why let you join in against people racing GT1 cars for you to only fuck up things even worse?

Right now, the sportmanship penalties are a little loose. IMO, they need to be really severe because they have to simulate that real world thought of... oh shit I don't want to fuck my car up and pay thousands of dollars, or maybe I wont do this insane pass with a 1% chance of success cause I would hit that wall and maybe die. Once you get that virtual equivalent of caution, people of all talents begin to race smart and have really exciting and rewarding racing experiences. I never got very good at iRacing but I still had some of my most thrilling online races ever in the lower class races.

I hope GTS does the same driver rating points system too where depending on the quality of people you are racing against, the more your efforts are rewarded. So if I am a D class racer and there happened to be a few A and B racers in my race, if I get 4th place in that race, it is worth more ranking points than if I got first place against a bunch of E class racers. This adds that final real life scenario of playing it smart when you know 3rd place is a good result and not going full kamikaze just to get first at all costs.

Assuming they resolve the technical side of the online races, the sportsmanship system is what is likely going to make or break this game for setting a new benchmark in quality online racing on consoles.

Well stated. There is some evidence on the UI for GTSport that Polyphony may allow sorting or limiting drivers by their SR (how they abbreviated Sportsmanship Rating). That could mean races where you're only allowed in if you're above a certain threshold. Combined with the more elegant BoP system, this might indeed lead to much better racing experiences.


Forza started a similar idea in 6, two ranking system that define in what league against what other people you get to race.

The main problem why that didn't work (or not well, definitely not for me) was that they still used the performance index system for most races to restrict what cars are allowed. Their PP-system works pretty good for predicting lap times, so 2 cars with some tuning added to it that have exactly 600pi will be very close in qualifying on most tracks, add some track variety and they will be even closer on average... BUT what if my 600pi car is a very light caterham that makes up for the lower hp with fantastic cornering speeds and the other guy's 600pi car is a heavy mustang that is slow in the corners but fast at the end of the straights and you put many of such different cars in a race?!??
It leads to a lot of risky overtaking (the Caterham will try to overtake in a series of corners, the Mustang will try to brake late on the straight) and also very different brake points that you then also have to predict if you're following the guy in front of you closely - if you do it wrong, you bump him off.

In real racing cars follow homologation rules. The prediction of lap times for cars following these rules is sometimes even less perfect than Forza's pi system, but the racing can be closer because the strengths and weaknesses of the cars aren't too different.

So, I hope that GT Sport will do that right and balance the car classes, weight and power restrictions for the individual cars and races correctly ("to enter this race you need to add 30hp and 50kg to your car, tires must be...").

Seems to be pointing that way.

Beta is not Pro ready, going by the screenshots

I'm on a PS4pro. While there is no supersampling, the replays do run at 60FPS. I can try disabling boost mode to see if it makes a difference. I suspect it won't.

Overall image quality is good. I've noticed more aliasing artifacts on cars on the menu screens than during a race.
 
I think the only thing I don't really understand about SR is the off-road penalty. Like, if you're cutting corners, I get why that's a hit to your SR. But if you caught the outside edge of a turn and you spin out, why does that affect your sportsmanship? When that happened in my races, it was a triple whammy of +10-15 seconds (because getting back on track suuuuucks), disqualification (for "penalty time," don't even know what that is) and SR rating drop. I guess the upside is that the SR penalty wasn't particularly steep because I came out of that race with a higher SR despite spinning out twice.
 
Why the back tire do this, maybe ice on the track

https://youtu.be/HulrZ8HDHEU
Let me try a theory on that one:

grip is derived from slip, I don't wanna overcomplicate things, but let me formulate it like this:
Tire surface and asphalt need to move with different speeds or there are no forces (in that direction). The difference in rotational speed of the tire surface and the speed that the asphalt is moving relative to the car is called slip ratio.
ctsrcurve.gif
For the tire in the diagram the ideal difference is around 5%, that's where you get the most acceleration. If you don't accelerate and we forget about all the stuff that slows you down naturally (drag, engine brake, rolling resistance etc.) there is no difference in speed and thus no longitudinal forces that de- or accelerate the car - which is mathematically the same as no grip.

Now if you want to calculate the grip with a mathematical tire model, many models such as the Pacejka Magic Formula have a problem with low car speeds, because you're approaching a division by zero which would lead to an error and before that to almost infinite forces, so every dev studio needs to find his own way around this problem and I'd say there is a hole in GTS's way around it, which occurs at very very low speeds and slip ratios below a certain threshold.
This looks a bit stupid, but doesn't mean there is fundamentally wrong with GTS and should only affect this specific scenario that never occurs in normal gameplay.
 
I think the only thing I don't really understand about SR is the off-road penalty. Like, if you're cutting corners, I get why that's a hit to your SR. But if you caught the outside edge of a turn and you spin out, why does that affect your sportsmanship? When that happened in my races, it was a triple whammy of +10-15 seconds (because getting back on track suuuuucks), disqualification (for "penalty time," don't even know what that is) and SR rating drop. I guess the upside is that the SR penalty wasn't particularly steep because I came out of that race with a higher SR despite spinning out twice.

You got to look at it from a computing perspective: how does the system know when you are cutting corners or spinning out?
 
I think the only thing I don't really understand about SR is the off-road penalty. Like, if you're cutting corners, I get why that's a hit to your SR. But if you caught the outside edge of a turn and you spin out, why does that affect your sportsmanship? When that happened in my races, it was a triple whammy of +10-15 seconds (because getting back on track suuuuucks), disqualification (for "penalty time," don't even know what that is) and SR rating drop. I guess the upside is that the SR penalty wasn't particularly steep because I came out of that race with a higher SR despite spinning out twice.

You are right it is not really fair. Hopefully the time penalties are just a place holder. SR should be deducted for going off track limits. This includes corner cutting or just driving recklessly. The time penalty should only happen after repeated offenses. And to be proper if should be a drive through or stop and go penalty. Lastly, the other real "penalty" will be damage enabled. Having to pit for repairs is more than enough of a time penalty.
 

Putty

Member
The lighting on those cockpit shots looks phenomenal....I'd love to see a little reflection from the misfire on the tarmac to REALLY hammer home the effect but this really is nitpick territory...PD are just lighting gods...With a good 6 months left of polish and tweaking i'm super hyped...
 
You got to look at it from a computing perspective: how does the system know when you are cutting corners or spinning out?

I do get that sometimes it's hard to differentiate between an intentional exit and an unintentional one, and that in certain circumstances it doesn't matter. But surely the game knows if I'm the OUTSIDE of a curve or the INSIDE of a curve. At a minimum I would hope for that.

You are right it is not really fair. Hopefully the time penalties are just a place holder. SR should be deducted for going off track limits. This includes corner cutting or just driving recklessly. The time penalty should only happen after repeated offenses. And to be proper if should be a drive through or stop and go penalty. Lastly, the other real "penalty" will be damage enabled. Having to pit for repairs is more than enough of a time penalty.

So basically I will have to learn to drive a circuit perfectly under race conditions or else I'm being unsporting? I mean, that's a pretty high bar to set, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, if Polyphony intends for this to be a game that competes with iRacing, that's a perfectly valid stance to take. But like I said before, it probably means it's not a game for me, who even at the best of times makes mistakes once in a while.

(games are allowed to not target me, so I'm not casting shade on GT Sport here! just slight disappointment)
 

spwolf

Member
So basically I will have to learn to drive a circuit perfectly under race conditions or else I'm being unsporting? I mean, that's a pretty high bar to set, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, if Polyphony intends for this to be a game that competes with iRacing, that's a perfectly valid stance to take. But like I said before, it probably means it's not a game for me, who even at the best of times makes mistakes once in a while.

(games are allowed to not target me, so I'm not casting shade on GT Sport here! just slight disappointment)

for online racing, you have to drive well or else it makes no sense... someone bumping you just a bit will ruin your race.
 

cooldawn

Member
Are you ready GT GAF?
So ready for fair racing. I can't wait to climb up the fair-play ladder; slowly ease my way out of the firing-line to a respectable plateau of competitive racing greatness.

It shall be done.

For those who haven't played iRacing, let me tell you that the single most important thing added to GT with this release is the Sportsmanship rating system. iRacing has this and this is one of the main reasons you can have high quality racing experiences with complete strangers and not have to join leagues or race with only a small group of friends. There is nothing special about the average iRacing driver v. the average GT driver. The main factor as to why you get bumper cars online in GT and people trying their best to drive clean in iRacing is because of the sportsmanship rating penalty of of driving like a dick. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the physics, damage, etc.

Without a sportsmanship rating, there is no incentive to not always try to get first place no matter how bad you smash your car. Cause it is a video game and you will never have to buy a new car or accidentally break your ribs, so without consequence, people naturally gravitate toward high risk behavior. This results in a shitty racing experience. Sportsmanship is that consequence. Drive like a dick, get forced to race against other dicks or even locked out of the higher class races. If you drive a Hyundai like a dick, why let you join in against people racing GT1 cars for you to only fuck up things even worse?

Right now, the sportmanship penalties are a little loose. IMO, they need to be really severe because they have to simulate that real world thought of... oh shit I don't want to fuck my car up and pay thousands of dollars, or maybe I wont do this insane pass with a 1% chance of success cause I would hit that wall and maybe die. Once you get that virtual equivalent of caution, people of all talents begin to race smart and have really exciting and rewarding racing experiences. I never got very good at iRacing but I still had some of my most thrilling online races ever in the lower class races.

...

Assuming they resolve the technical side of the online races, the sportsmanship system is what is likely going to make or break this game for setting a new benchmark in quality online racing on consoles.
Kaz seems to be approaching Gran Turismo Sport as serious evolution of the brand. I would be very, very surprised if there aren't a list of mandated standards to be adhered to for the FIA partnership. We know of a few certainties so far:
- spec vehicle choices
- officially sanctioned circuits
- official time-keeping
- official events/race start times
- circuit marshalls
- driver ratings

I'm sure there a bunch more in the background to control how the game runs and is perceived to be by onlookers.

If anything this is going in to over-kill mode. iRacing has it's own systems in place that, over time, has fostered demands of drivers for a better experience. Gran Turismo Sport, not having a full-on Gran Turismo experience, has the same chance of creating a community that loves to race but it might not be as flexible.

I hope GTS does the same driver rating points system too where depending on the quality of people you are racing against, the more your efforts are rewarded. So if I am a D class racer and there happened to be a few A and B racers in my race, if I get 4th place in that race, it is worth more ranking points than if I got first place against a bunch of E class racers. This adds that final real life scenario of playing it smart when you know 3rd place is a good result and not going full kamikaze just to get first at all costs.
I absolutely agree here. A player who finishes well placed in a field of higher-rated drivers needs to be better recognised...but that's not the FIA way. Maybe that's why iRacing can do it and, maybe, why Gran Turismo Sport may not be able to do it.

So, I hope that GT Sport will do that right and balance the car classes, weight and power restrictions for the individual cars and races correctly ("to enter this race you need to add 30hp and 50kg to your car, tires must be...").
I hope not because that sounds horrid. This thing is FIA approved so I would have thought vehicles absolutely need to be class-orientated. I expect the balance system would be needed for normal online lobbies, not official races.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding your point.

So basically I will have to learn to drive a circuit perfectly under race conditions or else I'm being unsporting? I mean, that's a pretty high bar to set, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, if Polyphony intends for this to be a game that competes with iRacing, that's a perfectly valid stance to take. But like I said before, it probably means it's not a game for me, who even at the best of times makes mistakes once in a while.

(games are allowed to not target me, so I'm not casting shade on GT Sport here! just slight disappointment)
I guess this will sound harsh...but yes. It doesn't mean you can't make mistakes but it would be handy to know the logic based dependancies so we'll have an idea of what is bad form. A racing driver races knowing what behaviour is punishable. Also, will the system use telemetry to decide what was a mistake?

Regardless, there's always normal online mode too.

On a side note, how do Polyphony induce the most natural and organic looking motion even when GT's physics aren't professional simulation standard i.e. real simulators?
They've always been good at it. For years it's been top-tier stuff. It's not the camera replay angles because no matter which angle they use...the cars look naturally placed on-track and look to behave how I expect them to.

Just wouldn't have thought it was possible if the physics determining a cars relationship with the tarmac is out by such a great margin people say it is.
 
It's possible that only certain races will be full fledged FIA sanctioned. My guess the upper series only. No way driving around stock Hyundais at Tokyo us gonna be a FIA race. The FIA stuff will basically be a constant GT academy. It is like that with the top class NASCAR races in iRacing. That is the stuff that gets the big streams and even gets real world NASCAR drivers to participate in. I expect to see real life drivers to participate in the high profile GTS FIA events. I don't think all the ranked races are going to held to that top standards. You have to have rookie series and classes for the average drivers.

The going off course penalty is not nearly as bad as you think. It is a deduction but a minor one. As long as the majority of your laps are clean, you will end up getting a net positive SR. You would have to be constantly going off course or get in to one big wreck to have a negative result. The lessons is yeah sometimes you get the short end of the stick and an asshole ruins your race and makes you take a SR penalty, but you move on and learn to be mindful of people who are likely to make a dumb move. At the end of the day, if you drive clean and only occasionally make contact or go wide, with will have no problem getting your SR up. It seems excessive at first but you need to artifially inflate the risk since racing in video games makes everyone drive like maniacs
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Let us remember how the game looked a year ago in the spectator's mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKbXkw4OuvA

The visuals were as not as sharp, cars had no active lights, the camera angles were really funky, and the netcode caused the stream to have very jerky cars on track [they were fine for the players who drove in the race].

I hope that this spectators mode will be ironed out. They rarely show it now.
 
Let us remember how the game looked a year ago in the spectator's mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKbXkw4OuvA

The visuals were as not as sharp, cars had no active lights, the camera angles were really funky, and the netcode caused the stream to have very jerky cars on track [they were fine for the players who drove in the race].

I hope that this spectators mode will be ironed out. They rarely show it now.

That's not even getting into the framerate being all over the place and having quite a bit of tearing. There was also some weird, and rather distracting, flicker effect on fences on the Nurburgring in that build. I know after GT5/6 some had lost hope of them locking down the framerate and getting rid of the tearing.
 
Until they say otherwise, this is what everyone should expect from campaign mode.

Campaign Mode – 10 Beginner’s School, 35 Circuit Experience (track learning), 62 Mission Challenges, 10 Racing
Etiquette lessons

Basically glorified license tests with some track specific lessons. Whether it'll be required before going online or not remains to be seen (racing etiquette probably will be), but I don't think it's going to matter much in the end in regards to overall progression.
yeah but how else are you earning cars and getting more tracks available?

I think we need more clarification on the campaign. I get that it was stressed multi-player is more important, but I think it's getting thrown around as an afterthought on GAF and I don't think that's the case.
 

BigEmil

Junior Member
With career mode taken a step back I've gone from day 1 purchase to wait for a sale purchase maybe around £15
 

farisr

Member
yeah but how else are you earning cars and getting more tracks available?

I think we need more clarification on the campaign. I get that it was stressed multi-player is more important, but I think it's getting thrown around as an afterthought on GAF and I don't think that's the case.
more details are always nice, but I'm more inclined to believe that what they've shown is what we'll get unless they say otherwise. They've been open about features not making it in this time around, they were comfortable enough showing menu screens for the campaign and even putting those screens up on the official site so at the very least, before the delay that felt like exactly what we were going to get.

Let's see what happens. After street fighter v, I'm never going to assume or think that "the expected things" are going to make it into a future entry of a game series unless the devs states it outright, and will continue to tell people to expect exactly what we've been told until the devs give us more info.
 
It's about time

granturismosportcloserzppk.png


granturismosportcloseqhosp.png


Got it after doing around 50 laps on Northern Isle. Finally got my time down there to 14.3. But the top times are at 14.0 and I have no clue how to cut .3 from time. Unless the Merc they're using can make up that amount of time.
 
I hope not because that sounds horrid. This thing is FIA approved so I would have thought vehicles absolutely need to be class-orientated. I expect the balance system would be needed for normal online lobbies, not official races.
Unless I'm completely misunderstanding your point.
This vv is what I meant.
It's possible that only certain races will be full fledged FIA sanctioned. My guess the upper series only. No way driving around stock Hyundais at Tokyo us gonna be a FIA race.

Look at the road-legal Group N cars (N200 here):
- Alfa Romeo 4c Launch Edition
- Peugeot 208 GTi
- Toyota GT-86
- Volkswagen Golf VII GTI

If those aren't up-/downgraded to race with each other, everyone would just pick the Alfa, the others wouldn't stand a chance. But the normal version needs to be in the game too, after all GT keeps mutually beneficial relations with car companies and wants to be advertisement platform for cars as well. And of course I will want to test drive some cars in their original from-the-dealership configuration.

Beyond the road legal Gr.N cars, I could also imagine downgrading GTE or LM cars to race with GT3 cars.
 
for online racing, you have to drive well or else it makes no sense... someone bumping you just a bit will ruin your race.

I guess this will sound harsh...but yes. It doesn't mean you can't make mistakes but it would be handy to know the logic based dependancies so we'll have an idea of what is bad form. A racing driver races knowing what behaviour is punishable. Also, will the system use telemetry to decide what was a mistake?

Regardless, there's always normal online mode too.

No, it's not really harsh, it makes a lot of sense if indeed GT Sport is aiming to take on the online racing kings of the PC world like iRacing. I'll see if I can put in some time in the offline modes to improve my driving with fewer aids on, but it's also starting to seem like GT Sport just targets a level of driver far above where I am or could be with the amount of time I'm willing/able to spend improving my lap times.
 
How have you folks managed to access the nurburgring and whatnot? I was seeing gifs and videos of them from the beta, but they don't seem to be in my version?
 
I had to break out the old Pulse Elites Headphones and install the "Racing" app. I thought DriveClub app was awesome, until I tried the Racing app with the Pulse Elites bass boost gives you a good rumble and hearing the engine sounds while you're in the middle of the pack is awe inspiring, they really did a great job with the racing app, I'm hoping they bring that app over to the other Headsets.
 
It's about time

granturismosportcloserzppk.png


granturismosportcloseqhosp.png


Got it after doing around 50 laps on Northern Isle. Finally got my time down there to 14.3. But the top times are at 14.0 and I have no clue how to cut .3 from time. Unless the Merc they're using can make up that amount of time.

Hnnnnnnnggggg I didn't know that was in the beta!!! My car prize luck has been shit other than the Evora. That car is a blast to drive.
 
Guess I'll never get in. Really dissappointing it's not hasn't happened.

Seems worth playing and like a whole game in my heart.

Hope it will release sooner than later.
 
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