RedNumberFive
Banned
I have, and this thread wouldn't exist if that wasn't the case.
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Greenawalt: "Disappointed in myself" from fan reaction; want to win fans back [Forza]
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
I have, and this thread wouldn't exist if that wasn't the case.
Very, very few people are ever able to own everything in these games, even before FM5. There is no expectation for people to own everything. The main point of having so many cars is variety.
If you're a completionist that needs every single car in this type of game, you should have been complaining a long time ago, cuz they really aren't built for that kind of thing. Not Forza, not Gran Turismo. I don't think people quite appreciate the amount of content these games offer compared to your normal racing game.
You left out something, but other than that I think you nailed it. ^_^
Warm Machine
Member
You have played the game or you have had to grind to progress?
When it comes to the MT the first external media I saw was the Giantbomb QL and they talked about the accelerator pretty well right away.
Ardenyal
Member
MS said the same thing about the DRM. "People didn't get on board because our messaging was off."
Not the best response you could give imo.
Great idea, but you need to go deeper. If you unlock the teams, then you need to buy DLC for the star players on the team and then grind for them with in game money or microtransaction it. Otherwise, you will be saddled with benchwarmers on the team and you are effectively only buying the jersey for said team.
Me too, but that goes for a bunch of people in this thread. The amount of venom, vitriol, and hysteria over this stuff has gotten really out of hand. We've got multiple people calling another human being scum, motherfucker, asshole, shithead, etc. because of a video game.
It's ridiculous, embarrassing, and one of the reasons that video game players have such a bad reputation. And it's not the CoD guys doing it to us, it's us doing it to us.
Yup
BlastProcessing
Member
This really is the only real problem for me. Forza 4 had the tokens but also gave you enough cars as prizes that you generally had a wide variety of options as to which leagues you could tackle at any given time. It let you save your earned credits for upgrading your owned cars or purchasing specific non-prize cars you really wanted to use.
Forza 5 is all about the credits and tokens, and you never have that excitement of wondering which car you'll win next and taking it out for a test drive after you win it. I think the change makes the game feel more "businesslike," whereas the previous games felt much more like a celebration of cars themselves. I don't mind that they adjusted the token costs of things, but removing cars as prizes, as well as (to a lesser extent) altering the affinity feature the way they did, feels like a punishing change rather than an improvement to me.
Nah, I'll just keep shooting down bullshit posts when I see them.
TylerDurden4321
Member
could someone please hand Dan the hard DATA (he's good at understanding data, I think, maybe he'll get, that we're not as dumb as he thinks we are) ...the data about how freaking more grindy forza 5 is compared to forza 4, horizon and 3?! The data about how many hours the average player has to race to get the 25 most wanted(by fans, so including the somewhat cheap Lancer and so on, but also including Lamborghini Aventador and Pagani Zonda Cinque) ?!
I don't have that data, but my feeling tells me it's at least 3x times as long, if you don't consider the forza-rewards-"cheat"(I mean, THOSE credits definitely don't feel "earned").
I don't have that data, but my feeling tells me it's at least 3x times as long, if you don't consider the forza-rewards-"cheat"(I mean, THOSE credits definitely don't feel "earned").
As someone who had all the top cars in GT4, you're wrong. The beauty with that game is that you were actually rewarded these awesome cars by winning. You're constantly calling out people, stating they're clueless about the economy of F5, but ignore posts like my previous one that explains it to you clearly.
by buying a console and a game?
It doesn't have to be F2P to have microtransactions. Some of the biggest MMOs do this even though they continue to charge a subscription fee.
I understand you don't like the business model because the implied cost is expensive. Does the game put up barriers that makes it impossible to get all the content through skill? Then the game is a ripoff for you. Even if you can get everything, does the game put in a grind that makes the game more like work than an actual game? Then that game has poor value for you. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value for high income earners with more money than time.
That's just the nature of having a business model that ended up catering their financial budget more than you or I.
Since Greenwall's stance is to make a game that is actually fun while offering rich people a means to bypass the time investment he should reevaluate how they tuned the game if he wants to make people happier with the system.
Since Forza isn't a franchise I play I try to imagine how a classic like Broodwar would've been perceived if an HD release was made with everything the same but players had the option to pay money to skip levels or to get access to the cheat codes to help them beat those missions. It would make the game look suspect but the core game would still be as fun as it originally was.
But that is the point of many luxury products. Their success hinges a lot on how they make people feel. Now I wish I had bookmarked a youtube vid I saw that fully illustrated the importance of selling a product that caters to your customers sensibilities and how much of a risk it is to offend them with actual real world examples..
CambriaRising
Member
I feel pretty much the same way here.
flyinpiranha
Member
No, let's NOT lock it. The reason this thread exists and a majority of the "increases" in credits is because people are seeing how shitty of a practice this is becoming and will become, T10 is reacting. In F4, with car rewards and 100% affinity netted you parts, AWESOME! I have a great sandbox to play with while still earning cars. Now car rewards are removed and I can't comment on affinity since I haven't played it, but I think that has been removed or is only a discount now. Basically, instead of letting me choose my cars, let me win my cars, they are creating this PR message of "learn to love the few cars you have" ... then why include hundreds?! Don't fleece me with this "we thought it was better for the player" bullshit when you just want to withhold shit for money.
This is stupid. We laughed at Horse Armor and now we are basically paying for "cheat codes". I don't mind the grind in Forza, I DO mind that they've taken free drive out or that I can't drive any car I want in Arcade. This is all bullshit money grabs.
Just because you think "everything is fine" doesn't mean the rest of us do. It's obvious where they are headed. Pretty soon games will just be $60 passes to access online stores and they'll cover it with "Now you get to CHOOSE what type of game you want to play!"
staticneuron
Member
Yes it does but the cash is a deterrent so "EVERYONE" doesn't input a code to get a car. If the temptation was only a code away, how many people would actually try to win a race they have difficulty with instead of just purchasing another car to do so?
Either way, it really doesn't matter, if you view this as a cheat or MT, the point is that both break the progression of the game and both are optional and never required or demanded of a user. So getting upset over how a dev chose to provide this totally optional thing should never be the focus of the talks here. The existence of MT and shortcuts don't harm anything. They have been in many games for years now. "How" they are implemented and "if" it effects other parts of the game to push you twoards viewing the MT's as a valid option, then I would consider that harmful. Other than that, it just seems like people are raging against something that many have already pointed out isn't required to purchase to enjoy the game.
I gotta say while I was pretty suspicious of his reasoning to begin with, this is where he went off a cliff for me:
This is the most ridiculous nonsense ever. If you want a car to be genuinely exclusive you simply make it more difficult to achieve in the game, make it a challenge, force people to apply their skill. If people are too lazy to do that they don't deserve to earn the car. THAT is what makes a car exclusive.
Trying to pretend it's not a business decision to charge more for an item that was cheap before so you can try to manufacture a feeling of 'exclusivity' is so inherently absurd on the surface that it basically IS insulting to ones intelligence. These guys saw a way to milk those saps with 'lots of disposable income' - they even admit they saw a window there - and no actual skill or patience to achieve these items, and they went for the gold. It's not complicated.
This whole thing would be a lot less offensive if they stopped saying such bullshit.
Much have been said by dedicated Forza fans how they changed the economy at first too to make things less easy to achieve regularly than before, from the ways cars unlocked to the the money you earn, so everything was working in harmony to funnel more folks into using their disposable income. Don't insult me by pretending it wasn't coordinated.
This is the most ridiculous nonsense ever. If you want a car to be genuinely exclusive you simply make it more difficult to achieve in the game, make it a challenge, force people to apply their skill. If people are too lazy to do that they don't deserve to earn the car. THAT is what makes a car exclusive.
Trying to pretend it's not a business decision to charge more for an item that was cheap before so you can try to manufacture a feeling of 'exclusivity' is so inherently absurd on the surface that it basically IS insulting to ones intelligence. These guys saw a way to milk those saps with 'lots of disposable income' - they even admit they saw a window there - and no actual skill or patience to achieve these items, and they went for the gold. It's not complicated.
This whole thing would be a lot less offensive if they stopped saying such bullshit.
Much have been said by dedicated Forza fans how they changed the economy at first too to make things less easy to achieve regularly than before, from the ways cars unlocked to the the money you earn, so everything was working in harmony to funnel more folks into using their disposable income. Don't insult me by pretending it wasn't coordinated.
thesuperfunk
Member
That that bit that really stuck out to me too.
flyinpiranha
Member
Nah man, nothing has changed.
Reward cars? Well ... we took those out, you should 'love' the cars you own more. It's all about the love of cars.
100% Affinity free upgrade? Well, we removed that, too many people were upgrading their cars and having fun, they should really 'love' their car parts, it's all about the love of car parts.
The Ring? Well ... we took that out, it's all about the love of racing, and we feel that you should love the lesser known courses also.
All cars available for a test drive? Too much love, had to cut back on the love.
It's all about love. All about love. It's why ONLY AFTER BACKLASH they increased credit rewards and lucky us, they put the DLC on sale!
Bloodworth
Member
You know how you make a car exclusive? Make it a prize car for a tough license test or really hard race.
But noooo we removed all prize cars. The only challenge is a huge ass time sink now.
I was going to get the console and game anyway. My response was intended to mirror what i felt was a ridiculous attitude from the prior poster.
Yep, this pretty much sums it up. And it's not like it was just 'Forza. This was an planned move across all Xbox One first party software.
People have been talking about "games as a service" in boardrooms for a long, long time. They're not mentioning it to their shareholders because they're all excited about saving people time. They're mentioning it because this is how they intend to fleece people for money.
No one should let their guard down for a second, and no one should forgive. The only thing that is fixing this now is our outrage, and our ability to publicize it.
BigDaddyFatSack
Banned
Disappointed that customers refused to fall for his trick.
I'm tired of being treated like i'm stupid by these people. Its so insulting to be part of the hobby when no one is on the side of consumers. I don't blame people for continuing to support developers/publishers with the HOPE that shit will change or get better. Its our hobby, we all enjoy it, and we wouldn't be here if we didn't. I cant blame anyone for buying products for their entertainment.
gotcha.
KnockOneOff
Banned
I did consider forza untill I read microtransactions
Forza had that. They decided for Forza 5 that all cars should not be available for Free Mode. To...um...make you feel good about the cars you unlocked. Or something.
For blind fucking greed, of course.
flyinpiranha
Member
Two camps:
Those that believe the model hasn't changed and that MT won't affect anything.
Those that believe they removed functionality in order to upsell MT that are in place.
I'm of the second camp. They have removed functionality and are trying to "fix" it as the fans are now noticing.
The hardest part about this, is that Journalists (lulz) and Reviewers (double lulz) aren't telling consumers about this. It's AFTER they have most likely purchased the game.
Even with F5, (from what I've read, I'm not supporting this type of action) the game is still playable, but things like reward cars, manufacturer affinity, free drive, and I believe gifting of cars, and some more are gone. Including the marketplace ... Why? Was it that people hated getting a free car after leveling up? Did they hate upgrading their car for free? Were they so angry at the fact they could test drive any car or use them in Arcade?
Fuck this type of action. I don't care what they sell in addition to the full game, but sell the fucking full game first. Don't strip features and then say "love of cars" 100 times thinking that will fix it. I have played/bought every Forza since 2. CE's of them at times including a Season Pass. But this is just bullshit.
some cars are avail for free mode though right?
NoPiece
Member
You answered your own question - their intent was to rip people off. If they had the arcade mode in, they'd sell fewer cars, so they took it out. Then they lied and said it was because they wanted you to feel more connected to your car.
Warm Machine
Member
Yes. About 25 of them plus the ones you can get in career mode.
scytherage
Member
What puts me off buying Xbone and F5 are those ridiculous patches. 6GB?! Come on.
was there more or something in the previous game? The guy i was responding to was taking an issue with it.
Previous games let you use any car in the game during a Free Play race without needing to unlock in career first.
thats awesome, and that sucks then if they changed it for F5. I get what you mean now, kinda hard to not put 2 and 2 together on that front.
Damn. That is atrocious. As if the HDD wasn't dead on arrival already ...
People are going to be full by E3 at this rate. They are probably going to put out 1 TB bundles pretty soon.
Yes, and the worst thing is, now you cant go any play online right away because only 25 cars are available. You have to buy them in career to race online.... This means if you just want to play Multiplayer you cant. In F4 you had all cars available in free play and online so you could have lots of fun without grinding through career in stock cars.