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Halo |OT| HaloGAF Evolved
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
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bobs...onGaf
Member
I have:
I cant believe some of the stuff you guys are sprouting to make out that bleedthrough is favourable for the kind of players that AR rusher then melee. Get real, bleedthrough is the tool that helps put those guys down before theyre shitty tactic of sprint beatdown works. Stay out of melee range when possible!
Maybe my opinions invalid because I found Halo 3 easy enough to read. I could always tell when I was able to kill someone with a melee, and I could always tell when a melee could kill me. The fact is that the H3 melee was powerful and so staying out of melee range was the best course of action. Im not sure why you would want to get in melee range in Reach?
Gabotron ES
Member
Removing bleedthrough would make the AR even morr useless in TU settings.
squidhands
Member
That's a pretty big fucking problem. One of the few things Reach got absolutely perfect was the feedback system, and now it's meaningless. The only thing that bleedthrough was enabled for was the poor melee, and it just wasn't worth it in my humble opinion. Especially considering there were much bigger problems that 343 could have chosen to deal with (Banshee), and I can understand why some people would be upset over the change.
However, the TU/Vanilla playlists are incredibly awkward in that it's tough to figure out what the fuck I'm supposed to be playing from playlist to playlist. The TU should have been implemented in all playlists from the start, and I think in the end it will be a good thing for whoever still plays the game to have some consistency.
Then you guys have some serious work to do in letting people know what it is they are playing. I think going so far as breaking apart the playlists into Default Reach and Title Update Reach is the way to go. Default Reach includes everything not touched by the Title Update, including Campaign and Firefight. TU Reach is everything else. Make it simple (because I play this game extremely drunk).
After playing both bleed through and no bleed through extensively, I prefer no bleed through. I just hate the double melee. I've gotten used to knowing that I can die even if I have shields. It's that double melee that really pisses me off. It had such a good feel when it was triple melee to kill. CQC leads to people going on suicide missions and double melee'ing even when there's a good chance to trade. I play to get the kill and take as little damage as possible so it's frustrating to my play style.
edit: Wow remember dirtying weapons in Halo 3? That was nuts. For some reason I'm feeling really nostalgic for Halo 3 for the first time in a long time. I think I might pop it in for a few games tonight.
edit: Wow remember dirtying weapons in Halo 3? That was nuts. For some reason I'm feeling really nostalgic for Halo 3 for the first time in a long time. I think I might pop it in for a few games tonight.
The entirety of Reach's competitive multiplayer suite is TU? So people couldn't even play vanilla Reach in customs if they wanted to?
HiredN00bs
Member
The AR has bleedthrough in default Reach. You mean because it can't be paired with the monster melee, though, right?
The Henery
Member
I don't think even three people in here disagree with Noobs on that particular point; many want bleedthrough for melee's not headshots while a lot of posters want the TU settings with no bleedthrough at all (I'm in the latter).
The point is, the bleedthrough issue isn't enough to justify the caterwauling for vanilla remaining. It certainly isn't enough to justify going back to a world where Armour Lock users can remain invincible for 6 seconds, shed plasma grenades etc.
People claiming they won't buy Halo 4 because of it is hilarious.
HiredN00bs
Member
I believe in Frank O'Connor.
squidhands
Member
Why couldn't they? The default gametypes are still listed on the disk, those shouldn't have changed with the TU.
Indeed. I bet the tears taste like
-------------------------------------------------------
On another note, any PS3 owners have any suggestions for a good FPS? I've got my eye on Killzone 2, but I'll take note of any shooter suggestions from HaloGAF.
Sikamikanico
#1 Dad
Gabotron ES
Member
Reach's the Halo I most enjoyed.
I have played Reach non stop since it came out. Not because it's my job, but because I enjoy it. What I will concede happily, is that it contains more surface-level complexity than any other Halo and creates more apparent disagreement, invariably because of those added layers.
So what does that mean for Halo 4? Scaled back complexity with more flash and feedback to compensate?
So what you're saying is BRs in Halo 4 won't have bloom?
Halo 4 to have less complexity confirmed.
Hmm. I agree with the first couple of sentences - fits my situation, too.
I don't think I'd ever considered the rift in opinion to be due to 'surface-level complexity' - I'm not even sure i know what you mean.
Garrett 2U
Member
I have played it a lot too, but I don't think I've had as much fun on it.
You're definitely hitting it there.
That issue is extremely pertinent in competitive multiplayer, but I think it carries over to custom games/forge especially.
I hardly ever play custom games in Halo Reach, even though I played many, many days of custom games in Halo 2/Halo 3.
And I think that is because as the systems got more flexible to allow more possibilities, it spoiled the simplicity of it, and in part, the fun.
I buy a game to play that game.
It is supposed to have a certain feel, a certain style that flows throughout.
I think with Halo Reach I bought more of a sandbox than a game.
Hmm. I agree with the first couple of sentences - fits my situation, too.
I don't think I'd ever considered the rift in opinion to be due to 'surface-level complexity' - I'm not even sure i know what you mean.
Bloom, AAs, dual layered health system, melee system, things of that nature. Gameplay mechanics readily evident to the player without digging deep into the meta. These are the things every player must interface with regardless of skill level.
Ah. Got it. Yeah, put that way, I guess I'd agree with Frank.
The sad part is, it's what we all ASKED for. (Not the SPECIFIC complexity we got, but SOME complexity. How many people said "don't just reskin Halo 3 - I've been playing it for 3 years. Give me something new!"?)
I don't like headshot bleed through on single shot weapons. Makes no sense.
Yeah the feedback system is worse but I will take all of that if it means I get to keep glorious 85% bloom.
I can never play 100% bloom again, its atrocious.
And I want melee bleedthrough to stay also. Feedback isn't as good but damn does it feel good to feel powerful again. Like I'm not utterly fucked in 2 on 1's.
Yeah the feedback system is worse but I will take all of that if it means I get to keep glorious 85% bloom.
I can never play 100% bloom again, its atrocious.
And I want melee bleedthrough to stay also. Feedback isn't as good but damn does it feel good to feel powerful again. Like I'm not utterly fucked in 2 on 1's.
Damn.. Hope for great MP in Halo 4 fading
edit- the not quoted part of your post does give me a bit a hope for a simplified on surface, more unified multiplayer experience for Halo 4, if you're aware of what the opposite did to Reach and the fanbase.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
A little late, but about the TU drama. I really like the changes to armor lock, bloom and sword block being implemented to make a new standard for Reach. I like the new damage bleed through as well, but honestly I would prefer it stayed with the Anniversary gametypes.. Reach's model worked pretty good and definitely made sense. Still, Im glad to know that I will be less frustrated with AL/Bloom in the future.
Yeah, I really liked that also.
Can we get that kill progress bar back in Halo 4?
I'm talking about number 5.
It's a really small detail but a good one.
Yeah, I really liked that also.
Reagan's BR
Banned
Halo 4 needs to take notes from Halo 2's objective way points and MM UI info panel as well as Halo 3's HUD
Now ask yourself why the objective object reset bar from Halo 2 is gone. The little touches to the UI were unfortunately dropped.
Getting to within an inch of the flag and having it return without warning sure is fun, though.
Then good for you.
Complexity can be good if it is an option. Many people enjoy Halo 1 and 2 because of their extreme simplicity. People enjoy Reach because of the new features it gave to players. Now one of the key things Reach did wrong was to force those complex features onto the player that wants simplicity. Halo 3 gave the option to play (practically) like Halo 2. If Halo 4 is bringing back giving the player full options to play however they want to and giving us those global options at a playlist level, then I'll be a happy camper.
Hypertrooper
Member
Yep. The news confirms there will be leaks which people asked for.
I hope so... Or you are talking about PAX East. I read GamesCom. =(
I definitely would love to attend such a LAN. I hope EuroHBO lan is much better.
People will never admit it. Unfortunately.
KidA Seven
Member
There is nothing wrong with changing the game. It's the execution of it. Armor abilities slowed the game down (made kill times longer).
Not I.
Absolutely. Game got extremely stale.
The Henery
Member
Whilst I agree that many asked for a change, nobody asked for Armour Lock. Such a shocking decision, still.
There's a difference between adding complexity by layering shit on top
and adding complexity by increasing depth.
Bloom, AA's, the dwindling importance of the individual player were added on. Bloom made you fight against the game and time in order to maintain consistency. Or you could play the statistical game and inject some chance into your shot for a faster potential kill. Chance should NEVER be included in a firefight. It leads to inconsistency and bullshit.
AA's turned it into a game of stealth rock paper scissors. Sprinters could rush you and run away with ease, jetpacks broke map design, camo turned into a hassle hide and seek match and on and on. They didn't make Halo combat more deep or complex, just added another layer to it you had to fight with and against. It was trying to turn Halo almost into a class based game, but the catch is you don't know what class someone is until they use their AA.
Then Bloom, the AA's adding survivability, the lessened killing power, lessened motion and agility made it so you couldn't go as big as you could in previous games. It relied more on teamwork. Which is good and all, but the individual should still feel powerful...
The previous Halo games allowed players to go clutch while still maintaining teamwork as a necessity to winning.
and adding complexity by increasing depth.
Bloom, AA's, the dwindling importance of the individual player were added on. Bloom made you fight against the game and time in order to maintain consistency. Or you could play the statistical game and inject some chance into your shot for a faster potential kill. Chance should NEVER be included in a firefight. It leads to inconsistency and bullshit.
AA's turned it into a game of stealth rock paper scissors. Sprinters could rush you and run away with ease, jetpacks broke map design, camo turned into a hassle hide and seek match and on and on. They didn't make Halo combat more deep or complex, just added another layer to it you had to fight with and against. It was trying to turn Halo almost into a class based game, but the catch is you don't know what class someone is until they use their AA.
Then Bloom, the AA's adding survivability, the lessened killing power, lessened motion and agility made it so you couldn't go as big as you could in previous games. It relied more on teamwork. Which is good and all, but the individual should still feel powerful...
The previous Halo games allowed players to go clutch while still maintaining teamwork as a necessity to winning.
Tha Robbertster
Member
The changes that Bungie made to the movement in Reach are my biggest problems with the game:
It has become way more difficult to dodge most of the shots because of the slow strafing speed thus making it nearly impossible to combat one player after another since your shields are so low after only one fight.
You can easily break maps with the jetpack since the highground and key locations iare so easy accessible for the people using it.
And the general low movement speed makes sprint necessary to traverse a map without it taking ages.
The TU didn't fix these points but I don't blame 343 for that. These features are Reach's core and you can't just change that.
It has become way more difficult to dodge most of the shots because of the slow strafing speed thus making it nearly impossible to combat one player after another since your shields are so low after only one fight.
You can easily break maps with the jetpack since the highground and key locations iare so easy accessible for the people using it.
And the general low movement speed makes sprint necessary to traverse a map without it taking ages.
The TU didn't fix these points but I don't blame 343 for that. These features are Reach's core and you can't just change that.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I also enjoy Reach.
With 4 I feel they need to completely renew the series though. Thing is, all of us can sit here and say "343 should renew the series, make things fresh again" but yet people will bitch because "it's not Halo then."
The core to Halo has not evolved in 10 years, I think it's time for some drastic moves.
With 4 I feel they need to completely renew the series though. Thing is, all of us can sit here and say "343 should renew the series, make things fresh again" but yet people will bitch because "it's not Halo then."
The core to Halo has not evolved in 10 years, I think it's time for some drastic moves.
The great thing about past Halo's was that they were deceivingly simple at a glance, but the more you played, the more complex the game became to truly master.
You can't master Reach's systems. Bloom will always screw you over at some point, the AA's are completely unpredictable in the hands of a good team, the grenades are so powerful, placement becomes an after thought, and the movement speed/jump height hinders any type of experimentation in map movement.
The game just doesn't feel like any Halo from the past, and I guarantee you that if it didn't have the Halo name and lore attached to it, after the beta, the vast majority would have never gave it a second look.
I'm not against change either, but you have to be careful with it, look at how terrible a majority of the vehicles are now just because gunfire destroys them. A sniper rifle should never be a viable weapon to destroy vehicles, there's a reason you have big slow weapons like the PL in the game...
You can't master Reach's systems. Bloom will always screw you over at some point, the AA's are completely unpredictable in the hands of a good team, the grenades are so powerful, placement becomes an after thought, and the movement speed/jump height hinders any type of experimentation in map movement.
The game just doesn't feel like any Halo from the past, and I guarantee you that if it didn't have the Halo name and lore attached to it, after the beta, the vast majority would have never gave it a second look.
I'm not against change either, but you have to be careful with it, look at how terrible a majority of the vehicles are now just because gunfire destroys them. A sniper rifle should never be a viable weapon to destroy vehicles, there's a reason you have big slow weapons like the PL in the game...
Rickenslacker
Banned
Yeah, I really don't like the loadout approach. Even if there was a better visual identifier of what AA someone was using at a glance like Jetpack, I still wouldn't like them. I like everyone starting off exactly the same and using the map to scavenge the equipment you use.
Megalo. It can't give a progress bar because the game doesn't know when it's going to end by itself (AFIAK, from posts made by Achronos and Jonnyothan). It's why you can't get win conditions for a gametype via the API, because the win conditions could be anything
Problems I have with Reach
-Load out system (Shit just sucked)
-AA's (you spawn with them, they are terrible and they have infinite use)
-Bloom (85% is fine but it shouldn't have been in the game, recoil would be better)
-Banshee
-Shitty non-memorable maps (not counting Anniversary)
-Forge Map (While not bad I am sick of seeing Grey all over the damn place)
-Thing like AC and OS have mostly been dropped from the maps for some reason
-useless additions to the Sandbox (Beam Rifle and Plasma Repeater)
EDIT: I didnt say ALL weapons where useless but these 2 didnt really seem to NEED to be added at all
I love Halo and all but I REALLY do not think Reach is a good game, its not bad but its average at best, I also dont think so many people dropped because Call of Duty came out either.
-Load out system (Shit just sucked)
-AA's (you spawn with them, they are terrible and they have infinite use)
-Bloom (85% is fine but it shouldn't have been in the game, recoil would be better)
-Banshee
-Shitty non-memorable maps (not counting Anniversary)
-Forge Map (While not bad I am sick of seeing Grey all over the damn place)
-Thing like AC and OS have mostly been dropped from the maps for some reason
-useless additions to the Sandbox (Beam Rifle and Plasma Repeater)
EDIT: I didnt say ALL weapons where useless but these 2 didnt really seem to NEED to be added at all
I love Halo and all but I REALLY do not think Reach is a good game, its not bad but its average at best, I also dont think so many people dropped because Call of Duty came out either.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
I too like Reach. Im just not a fan of the way some of the things it changed were handled, such as Bloom, movement speed and AL. I definitely like sprint, but I dont like that the base movement speed is so slow.. Im hoping Halo 4 can introduce the best of both worlds, both old and new.
Hydranockz
Member
I love Reach though... I think Hologram is the best thing to come out of it. So beast.
Bloom is fine as a mechanic but 100% is just too much. 85% really does hit that sweet spot.
Loved Halo 3, loved Reach, can't wait for 4.
Bloom is fine as a mechanic but 100% is just too much. 85% really does hit that sweet spot.
Loved Halo 3, loved Reach, can't wait for 4.
Gabotron ES
Member
These are really great additions, PR fits it's role in Invasion serving as a reliable counter to AR and the Focus Rifle ended with the annoying Jackals Snipers aka "you're suddenly dead and you totally saw that coming".
I know you meant Focus Rifle, but the game brought two weapons that should be, at the very least, entertained to be welcome back in the next couple games: Plasma Launcher and the Grenade Launcher. They could use a few minor tweaks here and there pending the base speed and all that in the next game's settings, but they're viable weapons and fun ones to use. When was the last time we got that, Battle Rifle from Halo 2? It's a pretty rare occurrence to have new weapons actually be meaningful.
Steelyuhas
Member
Can we get that kill progress bar back in Halo 4?
I'm talking about number 5.
It's a really small detail but a good one.
Goddamn the Reach HUD is so good. The progress for kills/objective was nice though, would be nice to get that back.
Limbo. Sogood.gif
I popped in some Halo 3 the other night.
Didn't last long.
Also, the easy answer to all the melee, melee bleedthrough, Ar charge is simple. Don't make melee so fucking strong. CE and 2 didn't have 2 melee's to kill and didn't have the melee issues that 3 and Reach have. Should be 3 melee's to kill.
I actually commend Bungie for trying to only have unique weapons in the sandbox, enough if the success is varied. I think the Focus rifle should be stronger, but I am very happy that they created it and replaced the Beam rifle. The beam rifle is a 100% repetitive weapon in the sandbox. With the exception of the Pistol and DMR being overlapping, the weapon sandbox in Reach has the most varied set of weapons, and they could use some balance tweaks (Beta weapon balance was better than retail), but I feel it's certainly more varied than Halo 3 that has repetitive weapons all over the map.
Wow, look at me defending Reach. Adaption achieved?
I will agree that the Plasma Launcher and the Pro Pipe are good additions.
(Also I keep on forgetting the name of it because I hardly use the damn thing, and for good reason)
You used it in the beta, because it was worth using. Now I just assist people with the tickle rifle.
Hydranockz
Member
Focus Rifle is still a very good weapon for both long and close range. I get plenty of kills and the visible beam is a nice waypoint to show allies where targets are at... and let's the. enemy knows where I am.
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