The first nerf happened in 89 days, while the second happened in 95. Both timelines seem dark to me.
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Hearthstone |OT9| Our raid wiped in Icecrown Citadel
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Jade Idol 2 mana and shuffles 3 Jade Golems in your deck.I feel like Jade Druid is really well balanced in Wild. I wouldn't want to see it nerfed. I would rather see Innervate get moved to Wild. A UI Nerf would be okay though.
Innervate either HoF or changed to only work with minions (and can't stack so no turn 1 Hydra).
UI Nerf is difficult because it's hard to change the card without losing the number flavor. Zealous's nerf makes most sense to me but I don't think Blizzard would want to nerf that card again.
Jade Idol 2 mana and shuffles 3 Jade Golems in your deck.
Innervate either HoF or changed to only work with minions (and can't stack so no turn 1 Hydra).
UI Nerf is difficult because it's hard to change the card without losing the number flavor. Zealous's nerf makes most sense to me but I don't think Blizzard would want to nerf that card again.
I'm 60% sure they're going to take the draw part of UI away (forcing Jade Druids to cut all the tech cards to put back in Auctioneer and Earthen Scales) and they're going to gut Spreading Plague so bad folks are tempted to replace it with Web Weave, making it so that Jade Druid can't punish decks for going wide and for going tall equally well.
From the vS report:
So many people have been throwing around "X deck counters Jade Druid the past 2 weeks" and it has been amusing to hear.
Murloc Paladin does not counter Jade Druid ... Miracle Rogue no longer counters Jade Druid, ... Exodia Mage does not reliably counter Jade Druid ... Razakus certainly does not counter Jade Druid.
So many people have been throwing around "X deck counters Jade Druid the past 2 weeks" and it has been amusing to hear.
UI is pretty low priority to nerf. Innervate and Spreading Plague are bigger problems but Blizzard has just messed up so badly that I am not sure it is even possible for them to fix their own game, and their conservative approach to balance just makes correcting these mistakes insurmountable. Iskar's post a few days ago about Druids is just insulting in light of the numbers, and speaks to Blizzard's inability to understand their own internal metrics.
I think when people say that a deck counters jade, they mean it can actually maybe win 45-50% of the time. What a joke this meta is. I mean just look at the matchup chart for token druid. Not a single red square... I thought shamanstone was bad, this is on another level of oppression...
I also considered they would remove the draw completely based on that recent interview. I don't think Spreading Plague should be changed right now even if it's very strong, that's like Druid's only way to beat wide boards.
Like if Druid is bad against wide boards, bad against big minions, bad with draws (with UI nerf and Auctioneer maybe HoF in the future) then it's going to become another Rogue/Hunter class with too many weaknesses and limited archetypes.
Like if Druid is bad against wide boards, bad against big minions, bad with draws (with UI nerf and Auctioneer maybe HoF in the future) then it's going to become another Rogue/Hunter class with too many weaknesses and limited archetypes.
Karsticles
Member
That first suggestion is so bad. It completely destroys the deck in Wild. Not to mention that Jade Golem mana cost is equal to their stats. A 10/10 Jade Golem is a 10-mana card.Jade Idol 2 mana and shuffles 3 Jade Golems in your deck.
Innervate either HoF or changed to only work with minions (and can't stack so no turn 1 Hydra).
UI Nerf is difficult because it's hard to change the card without losing the number flavor. Zealous's nerf makes most sense to me but I don't think Blizzard would want to nerf that card again.
Innervate into minions would make Druid DK a lot worse, and doesn't solve most of the problem sitautions like Fledgling. I would MUCH rather it only apply to spells.
UI Nerf is hard to speak on. I am not convinced the card is problematic without Innervate helping to ramp it out. Is it better than N'Zoth, for example?
Though I think it's clear that the issue isn't just UI anymore.
UI exacerbated what made people hate Jades in the first place. I always argued before that the shuffle option on Jade Idol wasn't nearly as relevant as people said, but now when Druids can draw 10 cards throughout the course of a match it is MUCH more relevant now. Now we start seeing a case to be made to remove the shuffle or capping Jades so they stop growing at some point. Hell UI even made late game Innervates more relevant to give people more ammunition to think that card should be removed.
That first suggestion is so bad. It completely destroys the deck in Wild. Not to mention that Jade Golem mana cost is equal to their stats. A 10/10 Jade Golem is a 10-mana card.
Innervate into minions would make Druid DK a lot worse, and doesn't solve most of the problem sitautions like Fledgling. I would MUCH rather it only apply to spells.
UI Nerf is hard to speak on. I am not convinced the card is problematic without Innervate helping to ramp it out. Is it better than N'Zoth, for example?
Yeah it's way better than n'zoth. You don't require any setup to cast it. You just vomit your cards to gain massive tempo then point UI at something and do it again.
Novel Mike
Member
Lich King is up! Started with my control warrior and...
Turn 1: LK gains 100 Armor, thats 160 life LOL
I also considered they would remove the draw completely based on that recent interview. I don't think Spreading Plague should be changed right now even if it's very strong, that's like Druid's only way to beat wide boards.
Well, Druid is already really good against decks that try to go tall. Now they're also really good against decks that go wide. Druid has to be weak to *something*.
UI is pretty low priority to nerf. Innervate and Spreading Plague are bigger problems but Blizzard has just messed up so badly that I am not sure it is even possible for them to fix their own game, and their conservative approach to balance just makes correcting these mistakes insurmountable. Iskar's post a few days ago about Druids is just insulting in light of the numbers, and speaks to Blizzard's inability to understand their own internal metrics.
Iksar's post was fine. I think it's a good thing that they don't release cards and nerf them a week later. The meta needs time to develop and stabilize before they start putting their fingers on the scale.
Karsticles
Member
Druid is weak to combo. OTK Anduin, Quest Mage, and Paladin are all strong against Jade Druid. I also find Murloc Paladin to be hard.
What scares me is that there are SO many varying options on what the problem is, and Blizzard tends to overnerf. I will be really mad if they nerf Jade Idol, UI, Innervate, and Jades all at once. I hope they just change ONE of these, and watch the meta progress. I don't think they will change Jade Idol because it just got a hate card, and that is a solved problem to Blizzard. Innervate and UI are most likely.
When I play N'Zoth in the deck I use him in, the game is over. I have played my win condition. UI doesnt do that. It is definitely worth ten mana, and I think it is comparable to N'Zoth.Yeah it's way better than n'zoth. You don't require any setup to cast it. You just vomit your cards to gain massive tempo then point UI at something and do it again.
I think capping Jades at 10/10 is pretty reasonable.UI exacerbated what made people hate Jades in the first place. I always argued before that the shuffle option on Jade Idol wasn't nearly as relevant as people said, but now when Druids can draw 10 cards throughout the course of a match it is MUCH more relevant now. Now we start seeing a case to be made to remove the shuffle or capping Jades so they stop growing at some point. Hell UI even made late game Innervates more relevant to give people more ammunition to think that card should be removed.
What scares me is that there are SO many varying options on what the problem is, and Blizzard tends to overnerf. I will be really mad if they nerf Jade Idol, UI, Innervate, and Jades all at once. I hope they just change ONE of these, and watch the meta progress. I don't think they will change Jade Idol because it just got a hate card, and that is a solved problem to Blizzard. Innervate and UI are most likely.
Am I playing so bad in arena lately? The 5 latest runs I could not make more than 4 wins and in this run I am already at 0-2. OK, I play mage without any board clears and without card generators except one cabalist's tome. Right now the last game has started and I face a magni with legend card back. omg
edit: went 2-3, but got prof putricide in my pack!
edit: went 2-3, but got prof putricide in my pack!
That first suggestion is so bad. It completely destroys the deck in Wild. Not to mention that Jade Golem mana cost is equal to their stats. A 10/10 Jade Golem is a 10-mana card.
Innervate into minions would make Druid DK a lot worse, and doesn't solve most of the problem sitautions like Fledgling. I would MUCH rather it only apply to spells.
UI Nerf is hard to speak on. I am not convinced the card is problematic without Innervate helping to ramp it out. Is it better than N'Zoth, for example?
UI taken on its own is 17,5 mana worth of value and you can put two in your deck. N'zoth requires some sort of setup and taken on its own it's just a 10 mana 5/7. Combined with the fact that it fixes the dilemma a ramp druid would face (sacrificing cards for more mana) the card is definitely problematic.
In the first example I should have stated that the Jade Golem is a new card that is 1 mana minion that summons a Jade Golem. It still scales and thickens deck with ability to tempo in late game but you can't go infinite.That first suggestion is so bad. It completely destroys the deck in Wild. Not to mention that Jade Golem mana cost is equal to their stats. A 10/10 Jade Golem is a 10-mana card.
Innervate into minions would make Druid DK a lot worse, and doesn't solve most of the problem sitautions like Fledgling. I would MUCH rather it only apply to spells.
UI Nerf is hard to speak on. I am not convinced the card is problematic without Innervate helping to ramp it out. Is it better than N'Zoth, for example?
Even in this nerfed form you will beat most control decks but it's not "auto win unless they have Skulking Geist". The current Jade Idol design is awful and the counter tech to it is even worse design.
The Innervate applying to spells only would just make it a worse Prep. I think Innervate should still apply to minions as that's Druids identity. Another good change to Innervate would be that it replenishes mana crystals so you can't gain crystals beyond what you have that turn so no turn 1 Fledgling. That change makes the most sense to me.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I still think UI is a huge problem with druid. It singlehandedly turns Nourish into a Gain 2 mana crystals, now that they no longer have to worry about card draw, and that's huge. UI is what happens when you print a really good card that fills in one of the biggest weakness of a already good class.
That aggro druid is also good does show how Innervate is the number one problem, but I don't think they can just remove innervate and leave UI alone.
That aggro druid is also good does show how Innervate is the number one problem, but I don't think they can just remove innervate and leave UI alone.
Karsticles
Member
Innervate as spell only is not worse than Prep. I can play two one mana spells with Innervate.
10 from two Sludge Belchers.
6 from Sylvannas.
5 from White Eyes.
8 from Sneed.
33 mana. No including any Reincarnates I used to make double copies of Sylvannas. Not including things I might have stolen, like Tirion. Not even including N'Zoth's own body, which is 5.5 mana.
How much is C'Thun worth? How much is 20+ board damage attached to a 20/20?
How much is Yogg insanity worth? Who knows!
A ten mana card needs to have A LOT of overtuning to be playable. A fair ten mana card is automatically trash.
My N'Zoth is worth...UI taken on its own is 17,5 mana worth of value and you can put two in your deck. N'zoth requires some sort of setup and taken on its own it's just a 10 mana 5/7. Combined with the fact that it fixes the dilemma a ramp druid would face (sacrificing cards for more mana) the card is definitely problematic.
10 from two Sludge Belchers.
6 from Sylvannas.
5 from White Eyes.
8 from Sneed.
33 mana. No including any Reincarnates I used to make double copies of Sylvannas. Not including things I might have stolen, like Tirion. Not even including N'Zoth's own body, which is 5.5 mana.
How much is C'Thun worth? How much is 20+ board damage attached to a 20/20?
How much is Yogg insanity worth? Who knows!
A ten mana card needs to have A LOT of overtuning to be playable. A fair ten mana card is automatically trash.
Novel Mike
Member
Simple to beat LK with Jade Druid FYI for that he...
Destroys all your 1-3 cost minions. This doesn't effect Jade at all lol
Innervate as spell only is not worse than Prep. I can play two one mana spells with Innervate.
A spell-only or minion-only Innervate would probably work exactly like Prep. Try to imagine the implementation you're thinking of on your head. What would the text look like? What would the Mana crystals look like? It's easier to communicate the effect if you have that "next card" limitation.
Innervate as spell only is not worse than Prep. I can play two one mana spells with Innervate.
My N'Zoth is worth...
10 from two Sludge Belchers.
6 from Sylvannas.
5 from White Eyes.
8 from Sneed.
33 mana. No including any Reincarnates I used to make double copies of Sylvannas. Not including things I might have stolen, like Tirion. Not even including N'Zoth's own body, which is 5.5 mana.
How much is C'Thun worth? How much is 20+ board damage attached to a 20/20?
How much is Yogg insanity worth? Who knows!
A ten mana card needs to have A LOT of overtuning to be playable. A fair ten mana card is automatically trash.
Well sure, but it's a single copy in your deck. Your opponent has the chance to interact with your threats beforehand, like they can polymorph/hex/devolve. You still need to draw every piece you just listed.
Like UI does so much on its own, and it covers a weakness of ramp. That's the problem.
Why are we comparing Nzoth to UI? UI you can put two of in your deck and every Druid can play it where as Nzoth requires specific deck and set up.
And Legendaries should be more powerful than Epics anyway as it's one of in deck versus two of.
Jade Idol is a big issue and I am shocked people still don't get it.
*Jade Idol provides a much needed buffer for UI so you don't start fatiguing early. The combo with UI means you get to maximize tempo in late game with shuffled Jade Idols and flash draws. Then you throw in Innervate for degenerate 10 mana play, double Innervate into two Jade Idols.
*Jade Idol auto ramps your Jades starting turn 1 which is a big deal. In late game it's a 1 mana massive creature making it the most powerful card in HS (name a single card that delivers more value than a 1 mana card summoning a 4/4). If all Jade Idol did was summon a Jade Idol then it would still be a powerful card.
*Low cost mana means easy tempo plays to full out your curve, combos with Auctioneer and Fandral plus Innervate bull shit in mid to late game.
IMO the cost of Jade Idol is just as much of an issue as the shuffle/deck thicken mechanic. You aren't paying anything for the choose and shuffle mechanic, summon Jade Idol by itself is valued at 1 mana in the game (just look at all Jade cards). The card was over powered from inception, it just took now for people to realize it.
I would be happy if all they did with Jade Idol was change it to two mana. That will never happen because then they would have to refund cost on Skulking Geist too! So realistically Jade Idol is never getting changed and we just have to deal with no control meta in Standard until it is rotated out.
And Legendaries should be more powerful than Epics anyway as it's one of in deck versus two of.
Jade Idol is a big issue and I am shocked people still don't get it.
*Jade Idol provides a much needed buffer for UI so you don't start fatiguing early. The combo with UI means you get to maximize tempo in late game with shuffled Jade Idols and flash draws. Then you throw in Innervate for degenerate 10 mana play, double Innervate into two Jade Idols.
*Jade Idol auto ramps your Jades starting turn 1 which is a big deal. In late game it's a 1 mana massive creature making it the most powerful card in HS (name a single card that delivers more value than a 1 mana card summoning a 4/4). If all Jade Idol did was summon a Jade Idol then it would still be a powerful card.
*Low cost mana means easy tempo plays to full out your curve, combos with Auctioneer and Fandral plus Innervate bull shit in mid to late game.
IMO the cost of Jade Idol is just as much of an issue as the shuffle/deck thicken mechanic. You aren't paying anything for the choose and shuffle mechanic, summon Jade Idol by itself is valued at 1 mana in the game (just look at all Jade cards). The card was over powered from inception, it just took now for people to realize it.
I would be happy if all they did with Jade Idol was change it to two mana. That will never happen because then they would have to refund cost on Skulking Geist too! So realistically Jade Idol is never getting changed and we just have to deal with no control meta in Standard until it is rotated out.
Novel Mike
Member
Why are we comparing Nzoth to UI? UI you can put two of in your deck and every Druid can play it where as Nzoth requires specific deck and set up.
And Legendaries should be more powerful than Epics anyway as it's one of in deck versus two of.
Jade Idol is a big issue and I am shocked people still don't get it.
*Jade Idol provides a much needed buffer for UI so you don't start fatiguing early. The combo with UI means you get to maximize tempo in late game with shuffled Jade Idols and flash draws. Then you throw in Innervate for degenerate 10 mana play, double Innervate into two Jade Idols.
*Jade Idol auto ramps your Jades starting turn 1 which is a big deal. In late game it's a 1 mana massive creature making it the most powerful card in HS (name a single card that delivers more value than a 1 mana card summoning a 4/4). If all Jade Idol did was summon a Jade Idol then it would still be a powerful card.
*Low cost mana means easy tempo plays to full out your curve, combos with Auctioneer and Fandral plus Innervate bull shit in mid to late game.
IMO the cost of Jade Idol is just as much of an issue as the shuffle/deck thicken mechanic. You aren't paying anything for the choose and shuffle mechanic, summon Jade Idol by itself is valued at 1 mana in the game (just look at all Jade cards). The card was over powered from inception, it just took now for people to realize it.
I would be happy if all they did with Jade Idol was change it to two mana. That will never happen because then they would have to refund cost on Skulking Geist too! So realistically Jade Idol is never getting changed and we just have to deal with no control meta in Standard until it is rotated out.
What about slowing down Jade Idols by changing to only place 2 in your dead instead of 3. That would certainly require a lot more cycling of cards to actually make use of its effect so easily.
It'sa nerf but a very small one. Jade Idol is still 1 mana and can be used to tempo out late game. You still have two Jade Idol cards as it is.What about slowing down Jade Idols by changing to only place 2 in your dead instead of 3. That would certainly require a lot more cycling of cards to actually make use of its effect so easily.
Lich King is super easy with Jade Druid. Now to try it with the other 8 classes.
Yeah super easy with jade druid because his perk doesn't even affect the deck.
But rogue... How do you clear the board of 2/6 minions with no spells? Goodness.
*picks hunter*
*lich king plays spell that deals 2 damage for each minion in the deck*
-32 Damage
Lol. Yogg and load is back!
Keyser Soze
Member
I am intrested to see Kripp try and tackle Lich King with some of his F2P accounts. Might watch live tonight for some of that/
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
You could make innervate "Refresh 2 empty mana crystals", so you can't play cards above your current mana pool. Might not see much play outside of aggro, but wouldn't kill it.
Innervate is very balanced in wild, so I'd be happy with just hall of faming it.
Innervate is very balanced in wild, so I'd be happy with just hall of faming it.
cartographer
Member
I like this or discount the next druid card you play this turn by 2. That stops double innervate plays.Innervate 0
Gain 2 mana crystal your next turn only
Druid fixed, you can thanks me blizzard.
I don't like the replenish crystal idea personally.
I'm trying to beat rogue's right now, and the only thing that works for me is Doomsayer + Master of Disguise.Yeah super easy with jade druid because his perk doesn't even affect the deck.
But rogue... How do you clear the board of 2/6 minions with no spells? Goodness.
Luckily, destroying all of the spirits also destroys the weapon, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to burst him down afterwards, since I will have given up my board at that point.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
From the vS report:
So many people have been throwing around "X deck counters Jade Druid the past 2 weeks" and it has been amusing to hear.
56% winrate for murloc paladin over Jade Druid is a little bit of a counter.
If that's not a counter, then Murloc Paladin and Pirate Warrior do not have any counters either. They even have Murloc Paladin at number one power ranking for ranks 5 to 1.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Lol. Yogg and load is back!
I was thinking the Barnes/Ysaarj cheese, but Yogg and load can work in that deck too.
slightconfuse
Banned
Lich King is real tough have no idea how to beat him
pirateluigi
Member
Lich King is real tough have no idea how to beat him
Jade druid is probably the easiest win.
Other classes are tougher though. Renolock is a must.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Tied with Lich King my first game lol
Got a legendary from my free pack which is cool since the last pack I opened had a legendary in it too. It was the Priest legendary
Got a legendary from my free pack which is cool since the last pack I opened had a legendary in it too. It was the Priest legendary
What is the general consensus on mirror entity VS frozen clone?
Is there one clear winner? Or is there more benefit in having both and playing them situationally? rather than sticking with one or the other?
One is tempo and one is value. Depends on your deck.
Infinite Stars
Member
If they end up hitting Jade Idol, I think here's a thematic idea:
Jade Idol -1
Choose 1:
Summon an X/X Jade Idol
Shuffle 3 Jade Shards into your deck
Jade Shard -1
Summon an X/X Jade Idol.
But yeah, the issue lies 100% with Innervate/Spreading Plague/UI.
Jade Idol -1
Choose 1:
Summon an X/X Jade Idol
Shuffle 3 Jade Shards into your deck
Jade Shard -1
Summon an X/X Jade Idol.
But yeah, the issue lies 100% with Innervate/Spreading Plague/UI.
Which is which?One is tempo and one is value. Depends on your deck.
I use mirror in my tempo deck, but sometimes feel it would benefit from using clone, especially against aggro.
I use both in my secret deck.
Which is which?
I use mirror in my tempo deck, but sometimes feel it would benefit from using clone, especially against aggro.
I use both in my secret deck.
Mirror is tempo clone is value.