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[Veitsev]

Yeah it's really fucking petty to want a party that isn't willing to compromise on abortion rights. Silly women and their bodies. And pushing for a healthcare system that would actually work and isn't a half measure? Who needs it, not like anybody is suffering from lack of medical care. It's just so selfish to want any of it.

I wasn't aware the Democratic party was willing to compromise on abortion rights.

Are you are referring to them not having a pro-choice litmus test when it come to supporting candidates in likely deep red states? I suppose the Democratic party should tell those people to fuck off and let Republicans have those seats instead. I'm sure that will be better for women.

I also wasn't aware that Democrats weren't in favor of a working healthcare system and preferred one that doesn't work. I'm assuming this means single payer or nothing. Single payer is actually supported by many Democrats and isn't the exclusive opinion of Bernie stans, Bernie aligned politicians, or Bernie himself. In fact single payer been debated within the Democratic party for decades. Some may think thats unrealistic and want something like a public option instead. Don't worry though, the Republican party will always be there to tell you that if you can't afford healthcare you deserve to die.

There's a difference between proclaimed goals and actual action.

Yeah, its uniting and winning elections.

 

[Ekai]

Yeah, its uniting and winning elections.

And actually sticking to proclaimed goals when one wins an election.

 

[erotic grandpa]

I wasn't aware the Democratic party was willing to compromise on abortion rights.

Are you are referring to them not having a pro-choice litmus test when it come to supporting candidates in likely deep red states? I suppose the Democratic party should tell those people to fuck off and let Republicans have those seats instead. I'm sure that will be better for women.

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

 

[kirblar]

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

And the idea of just not contesting seats because the local electorate is demanding things of their candidates is even worse.

 

[Veitsev]

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

Because that Democrat would vote with his/her party on other issues that also matter and affect people's lives.

Your alternative is a Republican that does all the negative things you describe and worse.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

Would you rather have a pro-life Democrat like John Bel Edwards who is still pro-ACA and defended transgender rights or another asshole Republican like David Vitter or Bobby Jindal? Because that's your choice in vast swathes of the country.

Also, I'll give a damn about Nina Turner when her least election isn't her losing by twenty for a State Senate seat.

 

[Mael]

Wasn't the pro abortion dem thing settled already when Sanders said it was ok to support them?

 

[trh]

I hope you guys realise you're beating the "at least we're not the Republicans" drum even though that message just failed spectacularly. You're only gonna get so far with that.

 

[shawnbuddy]

It's this kind of intellectual dishonesty that makes discourse here frustrating.

Labeling people centrist based on one position, a lack of enthusiasm for Bernie, is intellectually dishonest. You don't know these people or where they stand on all the issues.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Y'know, I really, really wish I could travel into the alternate timeline where Sanders got the nomination. Not even to see whether he would have won the general election, just to see how many people who've spent the better part of the past two years screeching about how he was "undermining party unity" would have backed a Bloomberg bid.

I'm guessing it'd be quite a lot of them, if not a majority.

Well that's nonsense

 

[excelsiorlef]

It might seem hopeless to some, but I want them to try.

It wouldn't kill Nina to go one of these meetings with the DNC and try to meet each other half way. They don't need to be enemies. They should work together to work out a compromise. The animosity will inevitably kneecap one another.

Our Revolution at least seems like the one that cares bringing about change and isn't Cenk and Kyle of the Justice Democrats sucking off each other's egos.

Our Revolution actively supports Tulsi Gabbard. Neither group are all that credible.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Apparently on GAF there's another meaning, which is just "mean thing I like calling someone who doesn't support Bernie (enough)."

Do you not understand that there are people on the left who consider all liberals 'centrists'

 

[shawnbuddy]

Do you not understand that there are people on the left who consider all liberals 'centrists'

Well that's nonsense. You Bernie guys need to break out of this fantasy world you've created.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Do you not understand that there are people on the left who consider all liberals 'centrists'

Sure, but those people consist of less people than those who believe lizards run the Earth. I mean, say what you will about the GOP, but at least their crazies are a large chunk of their party.

 

[y2dvd]

I think using this "litmus test" attack is such b.s. We already tried incremental changes and sticking with people who are moderate/centrist and have we moved the needle much? Very little, only to see us losing what little we had, and the right controls everything atm.

Instead of progressive getting in line with centrists like yall keep saying, flip the switch and yall get in line and move us more to the left. Compromising with the right ain't getting us nowhere.

 

[Veitsev]

Do you not understand that there are people on the left who consider all liberals 'centrists'

You mean crazy people?

Yea I understand there are crazy people.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Well that's nonsense. You guys need to break out of this fantasy world you've created.

How is it nonsense? If you reject the current neoliberal consensus of course you're going to see the two capitalist business friendly drone strike loving parties as centrist compared to yourself. How is this even up for debate? Clinton Democrats are obviously way closer to 'the centre' than self described socialists.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Well that's nonsense. You Bernie guys need to break out of this fantasy world you've created.

Also I'm not a 'Bernie guy', stop being so goddamn childish and tribalistic about this stuff. You sound like you check to make sure Bernie Sanders isn't under your bed before you go to sleep.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think using this "litmus test" attack is such b.s. We already tried incremental changes and sticking with people who are moderate/centrist and have we moved the needle much? Very little, only to see us losing what little we had, and the right controls everything atm.

Instead of progressive getting in line with centrists like yall keep saying, flip the switch and yall get in line and move us more to the left. Compromising with the right ain't getting us nowhere.

2016 was the most progressive platform...

You wouldn't know it from Our Revolution.

 

[Nafai1123]

How is it nonsense? If you reject the current neoliberal consensus of course you're going to see the two capitalist business friendly drone strike loving parties as centrist compared to yourself. How is this even up for debate? Clinton Democrats are obviously way closer to 'the centre' than self described socialists.

So all liberals are synonymous with "neoliberal" Democrats?

Do you guys even read the shit you spew out? I'm convinced you guys just use a word jumbler with all your common catch phrases.

 

[pigeon]

How is it nonsense? If you reject the current neoliberal consensus of course you're going to see the two capitalist business friendly drone strike loving parties as centrist compared to yourself. How is this even up for debate? Clinton Democrats are obviously way closer to 'the centre' than self described socialists.

Depends on whether the self-described socialists support social justice or not.

 

[mlclmtckr]

So all liberals are synonymous with "neoliberal" Democrats?

Do you guys even read the shit you spew out? I'm convinced you guys just use a word jumbler with all your common catch phrases.

You understand that liberalism is itself an ideology that is generally looked at with scepticism by leftists right

I mean clearly you don't but I'm trying to be more patient with people today

I mean since your post consists pretty much entirely of snark about definitions combined with a complete lack of knowledge about those definitions I figured we'd start at first principles

What, in your mind, differentiates a neoliberal from a regular lib

 

[shawnbuddy]

How is it nonsense? If you reject the current neoliberal consensus of course you're going to see the two capitalist business friendly drone strike loving parties as centrist compared to yourself. How is this even up for debate? Clinton Democrats are obviously way closer to 'the centre' than self described socialists.

Because the definition of liberal is being on the left. It's oxymoronic.

Being called childish by someone living in Narnia is pretty rich.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Depends on whether the self-described socialists support social justice or not.

Well of course but since I've literally never in my life met an irl socialist who isn't also very passionate about social justice I can't really speak to that

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I think using this "litmus test" attack is such b.s. We already tried incremental changes and sticking with people who are moderate/centrist and have we moved the needle much? Very little, only to see us losing what little we had, and the right controls everything atm.

Instead of progressive getting in line with centrists like yall keep saying, flip the switch and yall get in line and move us more to the left. Compromising with the right ain't getting us nowhere.

It's more getting in line with whoever will get you moving closer to what you want in the general. If it's a centrist, get in line. If it's a progressive, get in line.

However, we all need to remember, the US is mostly a centrist/right wing country. There aren't as many progressives in bumfuck America as we'd all like. Therefore quite frequently it becomes necessary to at least take centrists to even having a fighting chance.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Because the definition of liberal is being on the left. It's oxymoronic.

No, it literally isn't, your righteous condescension is delicious coming from someone who is like actually factually wrong though

 

[Nafai1123]

You understand that liberalism is itself an ideology that is generally looked at with scepticism by leftists right

I mean clearly you don't but I'm trying to be more patient with people today

I mean since your post consists pretty much entirely of snark about definitions combined with a complete lack of knowledge about those definitions I figured we'd start at first principles

What, in your mind, differentiates a neoliberal from a regular lib

Perhaps you should look up the actual definition of liberal because you clearly have your own self-defined definition, much like neoliberal which you guys like to throw around all the time regardless of whether it's actually applicable.

 

[shawnbuddy]

No, it literally isn't, your righteous condescension is delicious coming from someone who is like actually factually wrong though

It is when dealing with US politics. Your posts are starting to reek of desperation on this. Redefining common terms is very "last ditch."

 

[shawnbuddy]

Perhaps you should look up the actual definition of liberal because you clearly have your own self-defined definition, much like neoliberal which you guys like to throw around all the time regardless of whether it's actually applicable.

Neoliberal is also just another indiscriminately used snarl word for someone who isn't fully on the Bernie train.

 

[mlclmtckr]

It is when dealing with US politics. Your posts are starting to reek of desperation on this. Redefining common terms is very "last ditch."

There are people farther to the left of self described liberals who do not identify as liberals. Ergo liberal and "on the left" are not synonymous. I'm not redefining shit.

Do you think socialism is a liberal philosophy? What's full on authoritarian communism, super duper liberalism? How about like an anarchosyndicalist, are they some kind of user special double liberal?

 

[shawnbuddy]

There are people farther to the left of self described liberals who do not identify as liberals. Ergo liberal and "on the left" are not synonymous. I'm not redefining shit.

Do you think socialism is a liberal philosophy? What's full on authoritarian communism, super duper liberalism? How about like an anarchosyndicalist, are they some kind of user special double liberal?

Now you're doubling down on desperate. Liberals are on the left of the US political spectrum. It does not matter if there are groups farther left. No one is saying liberals are the only group on the left. You don't get to redefine us as centrist because you're mad we didn't kiss Bernie's ring.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

There are people farther to the left of self described liberals who do not identify as liberals. Ergo liberal and "on the left" are not synonymous. I'm not redefining shit.

Do you think socialism is a liberal philosophy? What's full on authoritarian communism, super duper liberalism? How about like an anarchosyndicalist, are they some kind of user special double liberal?

Liberal +
Liberal ++
Liberal +++

You get better loot but it's harder to summon help

 

[Doc Holliday]

Yeah it's really fucking petty to want a party that isn't willing to compromise on abortion rights. Silly women and their bodies. And pushing for a healthcare system that would actually work and isn't a half measure? Who needs it, not like anybody is suffering from lack of medical care. It's just so selfish to want any of it.

It's petty when acting like this is leading to possibly handling trump another term thus having less abortion rights, more anti women policies and more attempts to takeaway healthcare.

The only way to get to something done is with a united front.

 

[Nafai1123]

Neoliberal is also just another indiscriminately used snarl word for someone who isn't fully on the Bernie train.

I understand how they're using it, and I understand they're using it wrong. They just keep doubling down on stupid and then want to argue definitions?

 

[mlclmtckr]

Neoliberal is also just another indiscriminately used snarl word for someone who isn't fully on the Bernie train.

I clap am clap not clap on clap the clap Bernie clap train clap you clap insipid clap basic clap smug clap lib

Neoliberal is a word with an actual definition and refusing to engage with the concept is just sticking your fingers in your ears because you can't stand your bubble being encroached on in any way

People who are much smarter and more thoughtful than either of us have written intelligent, influential and important treatises on what neoliberalism is and what it entails. You calling it a Bernie stan buzzword is willful ignorance.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

There are people farther to the left of self described liberals who do not identify as liberals. Ergo liberal and "on the left" are not synonymous. I'm not redefining shit.

Do you think socialism is a liberal philosophy? What's full on authoritarian communism, super duper liberalism? How about like an anarchosyndicalist, are they some kind of user special double liberal?

In the U.S., yes? People in the US call social democrats just another form of liberals. In the United States, liberalism is anything left of right wing. I've heard shit like "liberal commie", "liberal marxist", "hyper liberals", and so on as words to describe anything on the left from the right wing in this country.

 

[pigeon]

Well of course but since I've literally never in my life met an irl socialist who isn't also very passionate about social justice I can't really speak to that

Sure. I see a bunch of them on the internet calling me a centrist, though.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

has there been a pro life democrat that has supported anti abortion laws? This is the thing, the GOP will vote to make abortion illegal, I know of no democrat that would vote for that.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Now you're doubling down on desperate. Liberals are on the left of the US political spectrum. It does not matter if there are groups farther left. No one is saying liberals are the only group on the left.

Because the definition of liberal is being on the left. It's oxymoronic.

I love you your posts give me life

 

[excelsiorlef]

There are people farther to the left of self described liberals who do not identify as liberals. Ergo liberal and "on the left" are not synonymous. I'm not redefining shit.

Do you think socialism is a liberal philosophy? What's full on authoritarian communism, super duper liberalism? How about like an anarchosyndicalist, are they some kind of user special double liberal?

So your argument is that only those further on the left have claim to "on the left"?

 

[trh]

Neoliberal is also just another indiscriminately used snarl word for someone who isn't fully on the Bernie train.

This is some weak shit. Neoliberalism is a well defined term that is applicable to large swaths of both Democrats and Republicans, and Europe for that matter. It's people that think social progress and capitalism are somehow capable of existing side by side, even though capitalism is putting money before people and social progress is about putting people before money. If you don't want to be called a neoliberal stop pushing their agendas.

 

[shawnbuddy]

I clap am clap not clap on clap the clap Bernie clap train clap you clap insipid clap basic clap smug clap lib

Neoliberal is a word with an actual definition and refusing to engage with the concept is just sticking your fingers in your ears because you can't stand your bubble being encroached on in any way

People who are much smarter and more thoughtful than either of us have written intelligent, influential and important treatises on what neoliberalism is and what it entails. You calling it a Bernie stan buzzword is willful ignorance.

Those people aren't the ones using it to smear anyone critical of Bernie in shitposts on GAF.

 

[Nafai1123]

I clap am clap not clap on clap the clap Bernie clap train clap you clap insipid clap basic clap smug clap lib

Neoliberal is a word with an actual definition and refusing to engage with the concept is just sticking your fingers in your ears because you can't stand your bubble being encroached on in any way

People who are much smarter and more thoughtful than either of us have written intelligent, influential and important treatises on what neoliberalism is and what it entails. You calling it a Bernie stan buzzword is willful ignorance.

Who are these people and how do they define it.

 

[KingV]

Deep red state here, where the GOP is doing everything it can each legislative session to strangle reproductive rights, even in the face of increased infant mortality as a result.

Why the fuck should I vote for a pro-life Democrat who would only perpetuate the burden the GOP has already placed on women here in Texas? What's to stop a candidate like this from pulling a Jim Justice post-election?

The idea of "compromising" on rights like this is bullshit.

Because they will probably be better than a Republican on that issue and a whole host of other issues.

Did you know Harry Reid was pro life for his entire senate career? Officially he was against roe vs wade and all that. But he also didn't press for it much, and delivered middle of the line votes when needed. For example he voted to maintain planned parenthood funding and voted against banning Cost sharing on Obamacare plans that cover abortions.

It's the difference between having someone that is nominally pro life but doesn't view it as the #1 issue on the planet and an ideologue.

 

[mlclmtckr]

So your argument is that only those further on the left have claim to "on the left"?

My argument is that this shit is obviously all relative and it's not, like, completely illogical for people on the far left to call people closer to the centre centrists.

 

[JesseEwiak]

My argument is that this shit is obviously all relative and it's not, like, completely illogical for people on the far left to call people closer to the centre centrists.

So, it it ok for Maoist to call a Trostskyite a centrist?

 

[shawnbuddy]

My argument is that this shit is obviously all relative and it's not, like, completely illogical for people on the far left to call people closer to the centre centrists.

It is not only completely illogical, it's also just a petty smear.

 

[excelsiorlef]

My argument is that this shit is obviously all relative and it's not, like, completely illogical for people on the far left to call people closer to the centre centrists.

Sure it is when they are actually on the left.

I mean you called me one once based on fuck nothing.

Pigeon was called one repeatedly also based on fuck nothing.

Many others have been baselessly called one around here

So I'd say that it is pretty well used illogically, at least around here.

 

[Nafai1123]

This is some weak shit. Neoliberalism is a well defined term that is applicable to large swaths of both Democrats and Republicans, and Europe for that matter. It's people that think social progress and capitalism are somehow capable of existing side by side, even though capitalism is putting money before people and social progress is about putting people before money. If you don't want to be called a neoliberal stop pushing their agendas.

It's actually not a well defined term, which is why I would imagine Berniecrats use it so haphazardly.

 

[JustenP88]

Well that's nonsense. You Bernie guys need to break out of this fantasy world you've created.

Do you honestly think you're the mature one here? You are just as tribalistic as any one in this thread. Stop with the "Bernie Stan, Bernie bro" shit.

None of this fucking matters. Nobody is going to remember Nina Turner's water and donuts during the 2020 general election. It's cheap, lazy political theater. Big goddamn whoop. Why the fuck does everything have to set shit off like this? What does anyone have to gain by trying to paint ~40% of the people who voted in the 2016 democratic primary as a lunatic fringe? You think you're gonna "#berniesowhite" the 'lunatic/ignorant/misogyracist' fringe away while simultaneously courting white moderates? What are the fucking logistics of that?

Chill out and pander more. There's like a 3-foot gap we need to bridge here. I really don't see the utility in acting so damn indignant whenever someone criticizes the party. The craziest iteration of either party in modern American history controls every branch of the federal government. If that doesn't inspire humility and a willingness to accept criticism, then we are mega-fucked going forward.

Go hard left on campaign finance reform. When we're on the other side of this Trump/Russia shit, we're going to be able to draw straight lines between the collusion and rich ass Americans who helped bankroll this shit (someone needs to snatch up Robert Mercer by the throat). Carville was on O'Donnell the other day and he really pimped that as being something they need to build their 2018/2020 strategy around. Made me really optimistic for the first time in I don't know how long.