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IGN: "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"
- Thread starter _Alkaline_
- Start date
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Same argument as earlier (in another thread? I forget): there's no way to quantify what a game should be priced at aside from how well it sells at that price, and I personally believe that price should not be a linear reflection of budget,Utako said:
cartman414
Member
Ecotic said:
Better an RPG with weak story than weak gameplay. Besides, Final Fantasy V is one of the best playing games in the series by a country mile, which by all rights should make it one of the best in the series.
The_Technomancer said:
I wouldn't be against them taking another stab at a SPM. They'd just have to do some serious rebalancing.
Quit misrepresenting my arguments, that's all your doing and nothing else. Case in point, I did not say every game needs to be big-budget fare, it just doesn't need to be the lonely exceptions to corporate policy.BurntPork said:
I also did in fact say that Ocarina of Time was overpriced.BurntPork said:
Check the record, I also didn't say this at all. I said they were wasting resources making them. So just be quiet, you're not hear to debate, just provoke.
Mr. Saturn
Member
Gravijah said:
Personally I'm looking forward to the Goemon: Mystical Ninja remake...
in pachinko form.
Both of the remakes were outsourced. Also, that's not how you determine price. Price is determined by how much people are willing to pay. Nintendo determined that OoT and SF64 would sell at full price. So far, it looks like they were right. (Well, for OoT at least.)Ecotic said:
CoffeeJanitor
Member
You did not just quote thatEcotic said:
IGN article. That was the one that made me not visit the site anymore and made me stop posting on their boards. That is one of the worst gaming related articles I've ever read.
FieryBalrog
Member
I'm glad Nintendo still makes the games it does.
As for evolution, SMG is the evolution. NSMB is a throwback, although to be fair, Nintendo isn't exactly skimping on the "throwback" franchises.
As for evolution, SMG is the evolution. NSMB is a throwback, although to be fair, Nintendo isn't exactly skimping on the "throwback" franchises.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
In Ecotic's defense, its really hard to portray Nintendo's support for the first six month or so of the 3DS as anything barely above mediocre.
FieryBalrog
Member
CoffeeJanitor said:
I didn't find much to disagree with in that article to be honest.
I don't think its a stretch to say Nintendo does a lot (well, a LOT) of recycling with its franchises, and the effort put into a lot of the later Wii ___ titles is, to be mild, pathetic.
Franchuzas87
Member
I couldn't disagree more.Andrex said:
Yes, definitely bosses aren't DKCR strongest point, but level design seems quite superior to me. The difficulty is higher (thank Retro for that) and they put something new in almost every level. A really challenging and imaginative platformer, and I don't think either of those things can be said about NSMBW (which despite that, I think is also a great game, and even funnier to enjoy in multiplayer than DKCR).
FieryBalrog said:
Wii___ line-up = Nintendo's entire Wii line-up?
That article is the result of Matt's personal frustrations and what was happening at the time on the Wii scene. The man wanted his dark games and Man Icarus, and he got a Mario game coming up that looked like the DS one, and his favourite punching bag; Wii Music.
edit: I know this because, well... i used to go there for gaming news a lot back then
What's wrong with it? The article seems to be right on the money to me on most every point. The Wii & DS both were designed to be cheap and underpowered because Nintendo brilliantly (as far as business decisions go) had found the proper hooks and angles to sidestep the immediate need to spend money on non-archaic hardware or up to date presentation values.CoffeeJanitor said:
Actually now that I go back and read the article I realize I had forgotten all about the GameCube rehashes that Nintendo repackaged and sold for the Wii at an exorbitant price for little more than added motion controls, or other lazy disappointments like Animal Crossing: City Folk. Again, since Iwata, this has been the rule more than the exception.
Franchuzas87
Member
Eternal Darkness 
A Black Falcon
Member
The IGN article linked above mentions that somewhat infamous quote, and while NSBMWii is a good game, I agree with the criticism that they did it a bit cheaply, and that there are two playable Toads but no Princess is, along with the DS graphics elements, certainly is one of the reasons why. And it's pretty stupid too. Peach really should be a playable character in that game.Ecotic said:
However, of course, that doesn't mean that I think Nintendo's cheaper than most videogame companies, I don't... focusing just on them leaves out how common it is. It's probably because those examples are particularly easy to see, and because Nintendo of course makes high-prominence games...
Animal Crossing GC was basically just a port of the (Japan-only) N64 game though, with some additions... have they made a real new second Animal Crossing game yet?
But still, I don't think Nintendo's quite as bad as you say there... they certainly have done their share of cost cutting, but they've also done stuff like Mario Galaxy and DKC Returns...
Quite agreed, Nintendo is not worse off by not having annoying things like that.The_Technomancer said:
Still though, they really do need to get good online play on their systems, and make it much more ubiquitous...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I really don't see how this is so hard for Nintendo. Take the Mario Kart Wii system. Give people dedicated identities. Put it in all your games. Bam, online.A Black Falcon said:
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Then you just end up confused with a flamethrower in a sewer.Gustav said:
FieryBalrog
Member
It's a game that sold like 25 million (and its not like that was unexpected). Was it really going to be that much effort to put in Princess Peach as a character?A Black Falcon said:
Then again, Miyamoto is the one who gave Mario a hat so he could avoid drawing hair and a moustache so he could avoid drawing mouths.
Mr. Saturn
Member
Boney said:
I know right, I can't believe the last metroid game came out in 2007.
FieryBalrog
Member
I'm just going by what Miyamoto said:MYE said:
Q: Is it true Mario has a hat because it was difficult to draw hair?
The technology of the time really dictated how we did character design. If I gave Mario a lot of hair you have to animate it or it doesn't look right. By giving him a hat we didn't have to worry about that. We also didn't have to draw his eyebrows, his forehead or any of these other things. It was just a really useful tool to help us emphasize what we were trying to do on this small screen.
I didn't know it was technically unfeasible.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Spinoffs don't count. It was 2004.Mr. Saturn said:
TheExplodingHead
Banned
I'd like to see Mario and DK evolve myself from a gameplay angle at least. There's still a lot more depth in the platformer genre (2D and 3D). That said, Nintendo needs at least two new IP's to satisfy the new genre's and hybrid genre we have competing today.
FieryBalrog
Member
Well that's what SMG was for.TheExplodingHead said:
TheExplodingHead
Banned
FieryBalrog said:
Like I said, there's still a lot more depth to the platformer genre, especially in terms of creative layers in the level design (see Super Meat Boy). Galaxy was a good start, but there's still lots that could be done with Mario and DK.
A Black Falcon
Member
Of course not. If true, it's an insane, laughable excuse. If false, then whatever reason they DO hvae for putting in two Toads (was it really as IGN speculated, because Toad could just use Mario's animation but Peach would need something different?), it's no better.FieryBalrog said:
I mean, couldn't it at least have been a character we know like Toadette or something?
Hah, true, but back then technical limitations mattered too, and I'd hope expectations for animation have gone up a little since 1980...
Good online isn't as easy as it might seem, I guess, given how even on the other consoles some games don't have great online coding... but it's something that all games with multiplayer should have. I don't want more online to come at the cost of local -- I like that the Wii still has a good number of 4 player local multiplayer games, while on PS3 and 360 it seems like lots of games stop at two, for instance -- but online is just as important. Nintendo's lacking online support has probably been my biggest point of frustration with them over the past decade, and their steps to make it better have been so slow... friend codes, no way to add people you play against in a game to your friends list ingame, no ingame chat except in certain titles and with friends only, etc, etc... made me not care about playing Wii or DS games online at all, honestly. Why should I bother when the featureset is so bad?The_Technomancer said:
At least Nintendo does seem to be taking some steps forward with that, but I would like to see more effort on production values too, like, yes, no more two identical toads...
But also, as I said, it's not like other developers are oh so much better. Many games have clearly cut corners, and given how giant budgets are these days for major titles, it's kind of easy to see why they'd try to save money where they can...
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Donkey Kong Country Returns is the best game on the Wii and the best thing Nintendo has done this whole gen. That is all.
Mr. Saturn
Member
Boney said:you're one of those
Sorry, I was looking forward to MoM a lot before it came out, but then my friend got it, and I don't know it just pissed me off.
The worst were those parts where you had to find one tiny speck of goo to progress further, that and the ludicrous reasons that were given as to why Samus couldn't use certain abilities. It if it makes you feel any better I actually thought the controls were pretty good.
If they cut out the story entirely, and had allowed you to use the nunchuk the game would have improved considerably in my opinion.
Mortrialus
Banned
Tricky I Shadow said:
Donkey Kong Country Returns is a mediocre piece of crap that is crushed by the shadow of its vastly superior predecessor; Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong-Quest. It even fails at meeting the visual bar set by a SNES game.
Silver_DNA
Member
It's amazing that this kind of an article prompted such a discussion.
The writers at IGN do not exude the kind of talent one would assume a website of that size and popularity would attract. Did they get rid of all their competent writers and hire a bunch of fans to write in the same way they speak? As a whole their editorial articles tend to have as much detailed information that one could get by browsing Wikipedia for five minutes, and we've seen the spelling and grammatical errors that have slipped through in their reviews.
The prose strikes me as either directed at children or trying to be cool and relatable. It lacks class, in my opinion. But maybe we expect too much, especially if we want video games and video game players to be taken seriously as a medium.
I guess we can make a little game out of this article in particular. Read through it again and take a drink of your beverage of choice every time the author uses parentheses (it's a lot). If you do then by the end maybe you'll find the subject more agreeable.
Also, now that we have an article that shits on Nintendo in the middle of it when can we expect the article complaining about Nintendo fanboys reaction.
The writers at IGN do not exude the kind of talent one would assume a website of that size and popularity would attract. Did they get rid of all their competent writers and hire a bunch of fans to write in the same way they speak? As a whole their editorial articles tend to have as much detailed information that one could get by browsing Wikipedia for five minutes, and we've seen the spelling and grammatical errors that have slipped through in their reviews.
The prose strikes me as either directed at children or trying to be cool and relatable. It lacks class, in my opinion. But maybe we expect too much, especially if we want video games and video game players to be taken seriously as a medium.
I guess we can make a little game out of this article in particular. Read through it again and take a drink of your beverage of choice every time the author uses parentheses (it's a lot). If you do then by the end maybe you'll find the subject more agreeable.
Also, now that we have an article that shits on Nintendo in the middle of it when can we expect the article complaining about Nintendo fanboys reaction.
Freezie KO
Banned
This thread is ridiculous. How is using the DS engine for NSMB any worse than using UE3 on everything? Answer: It's not. A game's value has nothing to do with how many polygons it has nor how many hours it takes to beat nor how many NPCs you can "talk" to nor if it has a story that mentally-stunted enthusiasts praise as the Second Coming of Snore of the Rings.
As for the two Toads, I recall reading an interview that the reason for the two toads was because players would expect Peach to be able to fly or play differently. Personally, I would've gone with Waluigi and Wario, but they did what they did. I'd still rather play NSMB than 99% of the games on the market. A lot of care was put into the level design and controls to make it actually play better, which is ultimately what matters.
If you don't think 2D platformers are worth buying, then don't buy them. Go buy a game where you can be a virtual white male with a shaved head and wander around making unambiguous morality choices in a B-movie setting interrupted by Z-grade cutscenes, all of which are carefully focus-tested to make you forget that the game doesn't and never will play as tightly as NSMB.
As for the two Toads, I recall reading an interview that the reason for the two toads was because players would expect Peach to be able to fly or play differently. Personally, I would've gone with Waluigi and Wario, but they did what they did. I'd still rather play NSMB than 99% of the games on the market. A lot of care was put into the level design and controls to make it actually play better, which is ultimately what matters.
If you don't think 2D platformers are worth buying, then don't buy them. Go buy a game where you can be a virtual white male with a shaved head and wander around making unambiguous morality choices in a B-movie setting interrupted by Z-grade cutscenes, all of which are carefully focus-tested to make you forget that the game doesn't and never will play as tightly as NSMB.