• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

In 2017, Peter Parker isn't really an underdog anymore

I stand by the belief that the best underdog Peter Parker was Sam Raimi's version of the character.

Most other versions of Peter are snarky super geniuses (intellect being a power in and of itself) who sling circles around their enemies and impress girls. That's much less a relatable underdog every-kid and more a power-nerd fantasy. Not that it doesn't work, but I think the definition is the character is sometimes sold insincerely and Sam Raimi did it best.
 
I don't see how a highschool kid in a hoodie and goggles who tries to fight hardened criminals with military training utilizing alien laser cannons couldn't be considered an underdog.
 
Eh, every adaptation of Spider-Man always starts out with Peter in high-school, so him being the underdog still sorta makes. Plus he does wear a hoodie and is inexperienced as a superhero, I don't see why he wouldn't be considered an undergod. While the recent film was different, because he had already been established as Spider-Man for a while, it still made sense for him to be a "rookie". Honestly I'm fine with different interpretations as long as they do the character well.

Also this thread is kinda cringeworthy, just for all the fan-arguing happening over Spider-Man. My lord!

The idea of Peter Parker as an underdog went out the window like 30ish years ago, when he married a famous actress/supermodel. Dude's in the 1% at that point. The problem is, you can't really walk that back.

Marvel did, seeing as OMD's effect have pretty much stayed intact. Peter's now single, and back to being considered a bit of a "dweeb" in the process.
 
In Spider-Man: Homecoming, Peter Parker wasn't a social outcast.

On that note: I liked Homecoming a lot but the way that school was depicted was far-fetched to say the least. Like everyone is friends and Peter and Ned get invited to the hot girl's party and Flash makes fun of Peter but actually likes him and the chick who hates everyone and is a cunt is also invited to the party and people also like her...or some shit.

That's not a thing.
 

DrArchon

Member
I mean, in Homecoming Peter's life still sucks. It's just not as hilariously overblown as it is in the Raimi movies. We see time and time again how being Spider-Man fucks up his social life. I don't need to see people trying to mug Peter for his lunch money in the hallways for me to get the idea that his life is tough.
 
On that note: I liked Homecoming a lot but the way that school was depicted was far-fetched to say the least. Like everyone is friends and Peter and Ned get invited to the hot girl's party and Flash makes fun of Peter but actually likes him and the chick who hates everyone and is a cunt is also invited to the party and people also like her...or some shit.

That's not a thing.

It kind of is at small magnet schools. Plus they're all in debate club together too. Why wouldn't you invite all of your teammates from a tiny group that meets a couple of times a week. They aren't just a random collection of kids; they're a team that works and competes together. That's not weird at all.
 

Lunar15

Member
We can talk about what peter should be, but it has far more to do with just plain good and not-so-good writing.

I don't like boxing anything into a single concept. Peter doesn't always have to be a down-on-his-luck character. But if you're going to go for something else, you have to make the movie about that concept, not just rely on the old tropes of Spider-Man without putting in the work to get a new story out of him. The movies don't always have to be about the same thing, but they need to be about something.

Peter's backstory only works if he genuinely feels responsibility for the death of his uncle. If you're going to keep that plot point in, it always has to be the driving point for Peter's motivations. And once you do that, you're locked into "with great power comes great responsibility", which is always going to be a very self-sacrificial setup. If you go that route, you have to show how hard it is to do the right thing - something Raimi's films did very well. It's not wish fulfillment. Everything since Raimi has wanted to do Spider-Man's backstory while also trying to make him less of a sap. But that's the thing, you can't have one without the other if you go that route.

The problem is that people are getting real tired of the same story, but we're in endless reboots of Spider-Man. There's tons of stories about Spider-Man that don't revolve around him being luckless. But we're tied to his origins in these films. So what we're getting is just the same story written again and again with less emphasis on the "depressing" parts.

I don't want to heap too much praise on Raimi because his films have real problems (look to 3 to see them all surface and explode!) but he the greatest thing he did was make a movie about Power and Responsibility first and a Spider-Man movie second. The distinction is important.
 
Peter Parker, the underdog:

Image00016.jpg


Image00017.jpg


What a poor, meek, put upon nerd.
 
Marvel did, seeing as OMD's effect have pretty much stayed intact. Peter's now single, and back to being considered a bit of a "dweeb" in the process.

Yeah, if you want to know what the current powers-that-be at Marvel see as the quintessential classic mold of Peter Parker/Spider-Man you really only need to see what they reverted him to in BND. He's down on his luck and barely able to hold a job or make ends meet (IIRC there was an arc where he couldn't afford to buy ingredients for web fluid). He does have a circle of friends but they see him as being constantly seen as being irresponsible and flaky. He's very much the under dog for that entire run until the start of Big Time.

If they could have rolled him back into high school with the same retcon I'm pretty sure they would have.
 

LionPride

Banned
On that note: I liked Homecoming a lot but the way that school was depicted was far-fetched to say the least. Like everyone is friends and Peter and Ned get invited to the hot girl's party and Flash makes fun of Peter but actually likes him and the chick who hates everyone and is a cunt is also invited to the party and people also like her...or some shit.

That's not a thing.
I never got the impression that Flash likes Peter

Also it comes across that Peter and Liz never really have convos outside of Academic Decathalon, so when Ned doesn't know how to shut the fuck up, she used that as an opprtunity to invite a boy she thinks is cute

Michelle is quite see through in terms of her don't give a shit attitdue from jump, and again, on the team with Liz, everyone on the team was there
 
We can talk about what peter should be, but it has far more to do with just plain good and not-so-good writing.

I don't like boxing anything into a single concept. Peter doesn't always have to be a down-on-his-luck character. But if you're going to go for something else, you have to make the movie about that concept, not just rely on the old tropes of Spider-Man without putting in the work to get a new story out of him. The movies don't always have to be about the same thing, but they need to be about something.

Peter's backstory only works if he genuinely feels responsibility for the death of his uncle. If you're going to keep that plot point in, it always has to be the driving point for Peter's motivations. And once you do that, you're locked into "with great power comes great responsibility", which is always going to be a very self-sacrificial setup. If you go that route, you have to show how hard it is to do the right thing - something Raimi's films did very well. It's not wish fulfillment. Everything since Raimi has wanted to do Spider-Man's backstory while also trying to make him less of a sap. But that's the thing, you can't have one without the other if you go that route.

The problem is that people are getting real tired of the same story, but we're in endless reboots of Spider-Man. There's tons of stories about Spider-Man that don't revolve around him being luckless. But we're tied to his origins in these films. So what we're getting is just the same story written again and again with less emphasis on the "depressing" parts.

I don't want to heap too much praise on Raimi because his films have real problems (look to 3 to see them all surface and explode!) but he the greatest thing he did was make a movie about Power and Responsibility first and a Spider-Man movie second. The distinction is important.

I feel like the distinction here is that having a responsibility to do something doesn't have to be a depressing thing. It can be an empowering one (see the trope of the unprepared father who pulls himself together when his baby is born). Here's the major difference in homecoming vs. the Raimi films when it comes to how Peter emotionally handles his daily choice to be a hero and to help people: in the MCU version he has a model to look up to. He sees Iron Man and Cap and everyone else and is empowered by the model that they've established for being heroes. In the Raimi films Peter has no model. He's it. He's the only game in town. Being a hero to him isn't uplifting or empowering because he has no goal to attain, to model to base his actions on, just an overwhelming sense of guilt.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
On that note: I liked Homecoming a lot but the way that school was depicted was far-fetched to say the least. Like everyone is friends and Peter and Ned get invited to the hot girl's party and Flash makes fun of Peter but actually likes him and the chick who hates everyone and is a cunt is also invited to the party and people also like her...or some shit.

That's not a thing.

sounds like you didn't watch the movie. they're all in debate club. they're either friends or friendly with each other in some capacity. how you missed that completely obvious point is really tough to understand.

Again, Pete was highkey a dick

yep
 
Rich Evans is wrong pretty often.

Blasphemy!

Don't know what the point of this post is, but this has nothing to do with the thread. Rich Evans, as the fan of the comic books back in the day when he read them, made it clear that for him this is the best Peter Parker and Spiderman, plus arguably the best movie because it's about Spiderman dealing with petty thieves for one thing . He really loved how spidey is a massive newbie and still will be past this movie.

Jay on the other hand, as the one who hasn't read the comics and has watched all movies based on his film knowledge alone, says he has a soft spot in his heart for the raimi films.

I haven't watched Homecoming yet but I do consider Raimi's Spider-man 2 as one of the top three comic book movies ever. The Raimi films are still recent and loved, I don't mind a different take on the character. Rich said that the essence of young Spider-man is a kid way over his head and I agree.
 
Yeah, if you want to know what the current powers-that-be at Marvel see as the quintessential classic mold of Peter Parker/Spider-Man you really only need to see what they reverted him to in BND. He's down on his luck and barely able to hold a job or make ends meet (IIRC there was an arc where he couldn't afford to buy ingredients for web fluid). He does have a circle of friends but they see him as being constantly seen as being irresponsible and flaky. He's very much the under dog for that entire run until the start of Big Time.

If they could have rolled him back into high school with the same retcon I'm pretty sure they would have.

Yeah, Marvel clearly prefers Spider-Man to be a socially awkward geek above anything, so the idea that wouldn't be perceived as a "underachiever / inexperienced" anymore isn't necessarily true.

Heck Spider-Man's recent dates have been fairly "nerdy", so he's no longer out of his league.
 

Cuburt

Member
The OP is a bit of a mess.

I'm not sure if it's talking about the character in general in media, specifically in the comics, or specifically in Homecoming?

I get some general idea about being an underdog that almost makes it seem like more than a random assortment ideas loosely tied together by comparing Homecoming to Raimi's Spider-Man, but I think it could use another pass.
 

Realeza

Banned
Why do so many people want Peter to be a huge loser in school?

Like you wanna know what makes Pete a loser at first? The fucker absolutely cannot help his Aunt pay the bills while in HS or college all he while he's doing something that could 100% make him a loser. Socially, he's intelligent, has had women damn near falling over for his ass at times because being a cute nerd just works, gets bullied by a big motherfucker/someone who is just a dick while in high school, and....no that's about it.

Also, yeah Peter used to be a dick who just wanted to be alone and would be a dick about it

The bruh was only really an underdog in HS and early college I believe

AND ONE OF HIS BEST FRIENDS WAS THE SON OF THE OWNER OF A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

Relates more to their lives.
 
"I'm going to rewrite the point of OP because I don't like what he says.. afterwards I will apply for FOX news. They will appreciate my bullshit skills"

You got it fam.

The OP specifically posted a picture from Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter is having food thrown at him on the first page of this thread, and again later cites Ultimate Spider-Man as having portrayed his underdog-ness the right way later in this thread.

It felt overly nitpicky-comic-fan to me, hence my comment.

It also ignores that Ultimate Peter is bullied early on, but the worst of it largely takes place before or right after he gets powers. Homecoming takes place well after Peter has become Spider-Man, so why would he still be sitting alone being pelted by food? It is a weird thing to expect, especially when Ultimate Peter would have a long since been dating Mary Jane at this same point.

I think it's the non-comic-reading viewers who are looking for the "original", "elemental" Spiderman, who are the most left out by the new movie. They could approve all kinds of new filmed interpretations of Spiderman... but they want new interpretations of the original underdog geek, "great power comes great responsibility" character.

I guess there's some truth to that, it's just weird to see so many people really tied to what is still a pretty 1960-era Spider-Man incarnation, especially when things like "jocks vs nerds" and other related cliches have been done in so many other movies, it's just a surprise people want it yet again, especially when Raimi covered it in a pretty iconic way already.
 
I agree. MCU Spidey butchers the character.

That's really not my point. This post is about Peter Parker, in general. Not just the recent films.

I don't understand why people can't see both versions of the character (Raimi and Watts) as valid, yet prefer one over the other. They're both very different takes on the character but they're both very much Spider-Man.

This is honestly a covert Miles Morales post but fanboys took criticism of MCU's depiction with praise to a piece of Raimi's characterization and ran with it as a Sony vs MCU post

I don't even love Spider-Man 2 the way most of these clowns do

I love the "this guy doesn't read comics" posts the most. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

I admit this Miles post was a bit too... camouflaged, but really didn't expect my giving props to Raimi to turn this into Sony vs MCU
 
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. Zendaya is portrayed as hot at any point in the movie, even though I was expecting them to. Like, we know she's hot in real life, but in that universe she is, no pun intended, a plain Jane. And even if we accept Liz to be the hottest girl in school, first of all, it's a school for geniuses, so of course even the hot girls would be smart, and second, we don't see anywhere near enough of the school to summarily say that all the hot girls are on the quiz team.

She's cosplaying as Ally Sheedy from The Breakfast Club. I half-expected a dandruff scene.
 

Alienous

Member
His place in his school's social hierarchy seemed like Peter Parker to me.

He has a small circle of friends due to his extra-curricular activities. He seemed like a normal guy - only a social outcast in that he prioritizes other things (namely being Spider-Man over social events).

He isn't hopeless when it comes to social interaction, but he isn't confident either. He's middle of the road.
 

LionPride

Banned
His place in his school's social hierarchy seemed like Peter Parker to me.

He has a small circle of friends due to his extra-curricular activities. He seemed like a normal guy - only a social outcast in that he prioritizes other things (namely being Spider-Man over social events).

He isn't hopeless when it comes to social interaction, but he isn't confident either. He's middle of the road.

Like a standard, well-adjusted teenager then?

Let Peter have that glow-up phase most high schoolers have between sophomore year/junior year and watch that confidence grow. Then we can get Peter being a dick to everybody
 
sounds like you didn't watch the movie. they're all in debate club. they're either friends or friendly with each other in some capacity. how you missed that completely obvious point is really tough to understand.
yep

From what I gathered they were in debate club together for some time and weren't really friends except Flash and Liz. I don't think being in a debate club translates to that kind of dynamic anyway, but as Affeinvasion mentioned and now that I think about it, the fact that it's a small school and a magnet school makes it more reasonable.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
THE PETER PARKER-O-METER

(MINIMAL SUFFERING)

1.

Ecynf.png


2. Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends

3. Marvel Adventures Spider-Man

4. Spider-Man: Big Time

5. Homecoming Spider-Man

6. Spectacular Spider-Man

7. Ultimate Spider-Man

8. Raimi's Spider-Man

9. Spider-Man: Blue

10.

3428763-7679577381-Marve.jpg


(MAXIMUM SUFFERING)
 
I stand by the belief that the best underdog Peter Parker was Sam Raimi's version of the character.

Most other versions of Peter are snarky super geniuses (intellect being a power in and of itself) who sling circles around their enemies and impress girls. That's much less a relatable underdog every-kid and more a power-nerd fantasy. Not that it doesn't work, but I think the definition is the character is sometimes sold insincerely and Sam Raimi did it best.

So, the character just waited around 40 years until Raimi got around to correctly defining it?
 

diaspora

Member
THE PETER PARKER-O-METER

(MINIMAL SUFFERING)

1.

Ecynf.png


2. Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends

3. Marvel Adventures Spider-Man

4. Spider-Man: Big Time

5. Homecoming Spider-Man

6. Spectacular Spider-Man

7. Ultimate Spider-Man

8. Raimi's Spider-Man

9. Spider-Man: Blue

10.

3428763-7679577381-Marve.jpg


(MAXIMUM SUFFERING)
Where does The Gauntlet Spider-Man fall on this scale?
 
Peter Parker, the underdog:

[IMGhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-n2uqqUF5K_M/Um_Rt0avjII/AAAAAAAASxE/PMnBeGO2nw8/s1600/Image00016.jpg[/IMG]

[IMGhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bliggCg-qaw/Um_RyivlQ5I/AAAAAAAASxU/Uhhnl2yZ88I/s1600/Image00017.jpg[/IMG]

What a poor, meek, put upon nerd.

Silver/Bronze age Peter Parker had this weird ambivalence. He was a self-made raging asshole or social outcast depending on the writer. Modern Age(1980+) Spider-Man was definitely designed to be a social outcast. Especially in the edgy 90s.
 
Silver/Bronze age Peter Parker had this weird ambivalence. He was a self-made raging asshole or social outcast depending on the writer. Modern Age(1980+) Spider-Man was definitely designed to be a social outcast. Especially in the edgy 90s.

Wat? In the 90's he had a frigging supermodel wife and a house in the burbs. The whole point of the clone saga was to throw Ben Reily and make him that "relatable underdog".

Shit the 90's and early aughts are when Peter was, until this most recent run, at his most well adjusted and successful.
 
A great way to make Spiderman an underdog again, would be to change his ethnicity to black and plop him into the middle of the inner city. Perhaps have a recurring background thread where he is considering his sexual identity while dealing with NYPD and a system that hates him and wants him behind bars or dead.

This way, he'd be "wanted" as a vigilante outlaw and during his normal every day existence as well.
 
A great way to make Spiderman an underdog again, would be to change his ethnicity to black and plop him into the middle of the inner city. Perhaps have a recurring background thread where he is considering his sexual identity while dealing with NYPD and a system that hates him and wants him behind bars or dead.

This way, he'd be "wanted" as a vigilante outlaw and during his normal every day existence as well.

Damn, shit just got too real in here. /end thread
 
A great way to make Spiderman an underdog again, would be to change his ethnicity to black and plop him into the middle of the inner city. Perhaps have a recurring background thread where he is considering his sexual identity while dealing with NYPD and a system that hates him and wants him behind bars or dead.

This way, he'd be "wanted" as a vigilante outlaw and during his normal every day existence as well.

tumblr_niaw8fB6G21u496xso1_500.jpg
 
I knew people would start saying Homecoming Spidey isn't faithful to the character because they've been tainted by the Raimi films and don't know a movie getting the character right when they see it.
 

kunonabi

Member
Snarky❤;244416852 said:
I knew people would start saying Homecoming Spidey isn't faithful to the character because they've been tainted by the Raimi films and don't know a movie getting the character right when they see it.

Both are unfaithful just in different ways.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
All in all I think matching the movies to a certain comic purity test is silly... ASM may be the original incarnation of Peter Parker, but I'm sure plenty of people enjoy the down on his luck good guy Parker compared to the original asshole Parker. I think people who don't enjoy the Homecoming version of Spidey have a totally fair opinion, as he's definitely on the lighter side of the misery scale. But to argue that Parker NEEDS to be broke out the ass and miserable from being wracked with guilt is just a narrow interpretation of Peter Parker.

For me, perfect Spider-Man is between a 6 - 7 (Spectacular and Ultimate). Spectacular and Ultimate do a great job of showing how Spider-Man is unable to balance his double life, and this is the one core constant of the character. When people complain about lack of quips in the Raimi movies, its not just about the quips, but the mentality. Spider-Man doesn't enjoy being Spider-Man because he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. That version of Spidey definitely has its appeal, but I think that story has been told. And I don't mind the new Spider-Man having a lighter interpretation.
 
Top Bottom