-ImaginaryInsider
Member
"It didn't feel like Spider-Man to me because they didn't throw food at him"
This thread is special level of comic fandom hell.
This thread is special level of comic fandom hell.
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In 2017, Peter Parker isn't really an underdog anymore
- Thread starter Elegant Weapon
- Start date
family_guy
Member
I actually like in the comics how after years of hard work he finally made it. His potential was underutilized all that time and he finally was able to land a good job and then go on to build his own business. They made the character grow up some. Although it does feel like his interpersonal relationships have been less of a focus.
PaulExcellent
Member
Reading all of Ultimate Spidey right now. Man, let the kid be happy and not talk about his uncle 24/7 and shit. Haven't even watched Homecoming, but some of you make it sound like because Peter isn't in the garbage, he ain't good enough.
Go watch Spectacular! Look at that, he makes friends and shit while still trying his best. >.>
Go watch Spectacular! Look at that, he makes friends and shit while still trying his best. >.>
Elegant Weapon
Member
I actually like Parker Industries* mostly because it was growth and makes sense that a character with Peter's mind & ability would achieve that level of success. (Otto built that though)
but then that ol Parker luck inevitably kicks in and dude will be back and the Bugle in some capacity
Man, he can be happy and sad too, y'all. Like, he can display more than one mode of emotional output. Ultimate Peter was more overwhelmed & brooding than happy go lucky and fuck it, I prefer it that way
Byakuya769
Member
Apparently "Ditko era" means issues 1-5.
PaulExcellent
Member
Tbh, we both know the MCU Spider-Man is going the Ultimate route, so we just have to be patient to get both of these.
But we all just need to stop arguing about this, and realize that Ultimate and Spectacular are just so fucking good.
darkhunger
Member
Peter didn't join the Avengers until the 2000's but always, always had tons of friends in the Marvel Universe. Heck he had a monthly series for decades called "Marvel team-Up" featuring a different buddy every month. He also relied on the Fantastic Four to do a ton of things i.e. get rid of the symbiote. Heck the first issue of Amazing Spider-Man was about him trying to join them.
And why do people keep citing the AI suit as if he actually had the thing during the entire climax of the movie? He solved it all on his own man.
Really? He wears a pointy purple hat and purple underpants on top of his novelty goblin costume and the dude wearing a spider onesie is trying to shame him for carrying a messenger bag? I think someone needs to go back to quip school.
JonnyDBrit
Member
On this point, the fact that it isn't an origin story does somewhat confuse things. Moreover, while his underlying motivation is still great power, great responsibility and all, we are mostly given that in Civil War, when Peter's explaining why he became Spider-Man to Tony. Because yeah, he was Spider-Man before the notion of ever becoming an Avenger landed in his head.
In Homecoming, the desire to rush to be an Avenger is supposed to be part of what's wrong with Peter for the movie, and how he's lost sight of what actually makes him Spider-Man. But sans the explicit mention of the 'oh, I was doing this to help people because one time I was selfish and it got my Uncle killed', because that's in another movie, I suppose it's easy to take the Avengers as being his motivation in general rather than his present one in relation to a wider goal (because he thinks that'll be how he'll do the greatest good with his powers).
Show, don't tell may be one of the most widely shared bits of advice in storytelling, particularly in film, but this may be an issue that would have benefited from a bit of telling. Or at least, a photograph for Peter to look at with a realisation of shame.
Shadowhelper
Banned
Well Homecoming is just nowhere near as good as Raimis SpIDer-mAN. And yeah, the depiction of Peter in Raimis ones is pretty much perfect.
It shows you the limitations of Marvel pretty well. They consistenty make good movies but since they never hire a visionary like Raimi and give them creative control, you will never get the heights of something like Raimis SpIDer-mEN.
It shows you the limitations of Marvel pretty well. They consistenty make good movies but since they never hire a visionary like Raimi and give them creative control, you will never get the heights of something like Raimis SpIDer-mEN.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I actually don't think it's "comic fans" who have the most complaints about Homecoming.
Comic fans seem to be less attached to the "original" geek character (circa ~1960s), being more familiar with his later 40-50 years of being a grown up cool Spider-MAN. And maybe more importantly, they're more acquainted with alternate takes on the character for post-2000s generations in the form of Ultimate Spiderman.
I think it's the non-comic-reading viewers who are looking for the "original", "elemental" Spiderman, who are the most left out by the new movie. They could approve all kinds of new filmed interpretations of Spiderman... but they want new interpretations of the original underdog geek, "great power comes great responsibility" character.
Homecoming is essentially an adaptation of the recent decades of comic Spiderman which has long since downplayed the original "geek becomes a hero and learns responsibility" character.
It's as if they made a Hamlet movie, but based it on Hamlet as he is in the latest series of sequels which have switched up the character for years/decades. But some people come into the movie expecting a new version of Hamlet. Hence the disconnect.
Sad Affleck
Member
Rich Evans thinks Holland is the best Parker and Spider-Man ever put on film.
The idea of Peter Parker as an underdog went out the window like 30ish years ago, when he married a famous actress/supermodel. Dude's in the 1% at that point. The problem is, you can't really walk that back.
Like, the story of Spider-Man is a path from "he's shit" to "he's doing pretty good." It's unfulfilling if he's stuck in the gutter all the time. People resonate more with the "he's shit" part, because it's a more universal feeling - you can connect with a guy who wants to do the right thing but just can't make ends meet. But at some point, he needs to develop and grow.
The problem is, watching "guy who's life is pretty much all together" isn't that interesting. At worst, it undermines the elevator pitch for the character - a superhero with the same problems as your average guy.
Homecoming didn't connect with me because I'm not a high schooler and I don't care about high school things - his problems seem trite and forgettable. I'm curious if it hit the mark with that demographic though.
Like, the story of Spider-Man is a path from "he's shit" to "he's doing pretty good." It's unfulfilling if he's stuck in the gutter all the time. People resonate more with the "he's shit" part, because it's a more universal feeling - you can connect with a guy who wants to do the right thing but just can't make ends meet. But at some point, he needs to develop and grow.
The problem is, watching "guy who's life is pretty much all together" isn't that interesting. At worst, it undermines the elevator pitch for the character - a superhero with the same problems as your average guy.
Homecoming didn't connect with me because I'm not a high schooler and I don't care about high school things - his problems seem trite and forgettable. I'm curious if it hit the mark with that demographic though.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Though that was once the culmination of success for an underdog. That's a great plot point if he started as a geek.
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
so im not gonna be dropping some widespread and specific comic-knowledge bombs in here, but here my hot take anyway.
so every adaptation, interpretation and implementation of spiderman (at least in his earlier years, the CEO stuff from recent comics is kinda an outlier here) that i can think of has had pretty much one thing in common, and its how being spiderman kinda sucks for peter. like how being spiderman all the time actively makes peters life much more difficulty, but he chooses to anyway because he feels its his responsibility (holyshitits like that one line!).
and this is something that homecoming nailed repeatedly.
like thats what set spiderman apart from pretty much every other hero when he was made right? the idea that getting superpowers would actually make your life worse, that they would be more a burden that a relief, i think thats where the underdog nature of spiderman comes from.
there is definitely an argument to be made that an increased emphasis on just how shitty peters life can get by being spiderman (as seen in the seemingly deified raimi films) can carry this theme more effectively, but to argue that it has to be done this way, that not having the universe shovel another scoop of suckstobeyou in his direction every single time he puts on the mask is a blatant failure of the character just seems narrowminded.
so every adaptation, interpretation and implementation of spiderman (at least in his earlier years, the CEO stuff from recent comics is kinda an outlier here) that i can think of has had pretty much one thing in common, and its how being spiderman kinda sucks for peter. like how being spiderman all the time actively makes peters life much more difficulty, but he chooses to anyway because he feels its his responsibility (holyshitits like that one line!).
and this is something that homecoming nailed repeatedly.
like thats what set spiderman apart from pretty much every other hero when he was made right? the idea that getting superpowers would actually make your life worse, that they would be more a burden that a relief, i think thats where the underdog nature of spiderman comes from.
there is definitely an argument to be made that an increased emphasis on just how shitty peters life can get by being spiderman (as seen in the seemingly deified raimi films) can carry this theme more effectively, but to argue that it has to be done this way, that not having the universe shovel another scoop of suckstobeyou in his direction every single time he puts on the mask is a blatant failure of the character just seems narrowminded.
Yeh, ethnicity, class, location, etc... none of this stuff matters!
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
A Spiderman who is just having a ball as Spiderman with no sacrifices just isn't Spiderman to me. The ideal Spiderman is definitely having fun with the suit on, but it certainly costs him in his personal life.
That said, even Homecoming has costs for Parker's personal life.
I have no desire to play "But What About?" You understand the examples you cited were weak. You have some grasp of Marvel history and know that Spider-Man, save for a few occurrences, was largely self-reliant.
Spider-Man was given his suit by Tony Stark well in advance of the Homecoming movie. It's just another instance of him relying on another hero. Again, the interpretation is okay, but it definitely changes Spidey's motivations and character.
How
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
yeah, this is actually a thing i notice about the ultimate spiderman run, and its what i think made it so effective. its pretty much a constant that spiderman always wins, but peter always loses. like he comes out on top of every villain he goes up against, very rarely losing a straight up fight and always wining the rematch if he ever did lose, but damn does peters personal life go to shit despite (and often directly because of) the victories.
It's like people are projecting onto this character.
darkhunger
Member
What I said was not "What About". The fact that Spider-Man has teamed up with more Marvel heroes in his history than most Avengers combined is not a what about.
Spider-Man has always been someone who is willing to work with and rely on others when he needed their help, and this characteristic is even more prominent this day and age. But even then, the movie manages to show both sides of him which is why this is the truest he's been on the big screen.
captainnapalm
Member
Raimi's films were about as pure a distillation of the original core of the character as you're likely to find for any character in superhero movies.
darkhunger
Member
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think so, in regard to the early 60s comics and throwbacks like Untold Tales of Spiderman.
captainnapalm
Member
That's what Raimi grew up on and that's what he wanted to recreate. It's part of why those films were so successful. They're a pure honest, retelling of the source material from a real fan.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Couldn't agree more.
You seem fixated on this, so I will leave it alone. But teaming up with characters does not mean you are reliant on them. Nor does it mean you have joined a team.
Spider-Man was a solo act. His popularity ensured he was a solo act who bumped into others a lot.
"The truest he's ever been on the big screen," is a hoot. Peter Parker is not a model type with a superheroic father-figure/mentor. He's a kid who had every reason to use his powers to stick it to the world, and instead chose to do the right thing -- on his own.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yup agreed. You could tell Raimi was a devotee of the original run, and he recreated the character dynamics that made that era compelling.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You know who wasn't a punk loser? Ock.
He took Peter's body and was like, "Bruh, you this smart and you never thought about doing all this awesome shit?"
He took Peter's body and was like, "Bruh, you this smart and you never thought about doing all this awesome shit?"
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Got invited to a party by what was seen as the most popular hot chick in school (that liked him) and was seen as the smartest dude in the debate team.. with the high iq bully that isn't anywhere near as smart as Peter and is literally their back up.. Dude is so wanted that he comes when they're about to leave and they easily accept him when they're about to leave on the bus. Dat #outcast doe
God Flash was such a shitty variation of Flash.
"I'm going to rewrite the point of OP because I don't like what he says.. afterwards I will apply for FOX news. They will appreciate my bullshit skills"
You got it fam.
I'm not sure how you can think/say the bolded portion I'm quoting, unless you specifically haven't seen Civil War.
CrichtonKicks
Member
It's not just Ultimate. It's pretty a pretty constant theme for most Spider-Man runs.
I was re-reading the beginning of the JMS run recently. It's a gread take on grown up Spider-Man but you still have the moments where he can't show up for school because of his Spidey obligations and they show students feeling let down because Peter isn't there for them. Or Spidey mssing an important meet-up with MJ (who is is separated from at this point) because he's fighting to rescue kidnapped homeless children.
It was one of the core themes of the entire BND era. I remember a moment in Big Time IIRC that he misses being there for Betty Brant at a critical time in her life because he had to be Spider-Man.
A real fan that doesn't have spider man joke
For context, in the panels before Osborne assumes the person in Peter's body is Octavius, who for a time took over Peter's mind and became the Superior Spider-Man. And Otto didn't joke. So cracking this joke is a sign towards him that Peter is back in control.
Its a cool moment.
kunonabi
Member
Rich Evans is wrong pretty often.
captainnapalm
Member
I just Youtubed 'Spider-man 2 scene'. In the opening fight scene with Doc Ock the first thing he says, after tossing a money bag at Ock, is 'Here's your change'
Then Ock catches him and says 'You're getting on my nerves'. and Spider-Man says 'I have a knack for that'.
What does Ja Rule think though?
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
I legit got chills when I read that for the first time, was such a cool moment.
Maintenance
Member
Even though OP stated otherwise, another thread fellating Reimi's mediocre movies. Sigh.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Don't know what the point of this post is, but this has nothing to do with the thread. Rich Evans, as the fan of the comic books back in the day when he read them, made it clear that for him this is the best Peter Parker and Spiderman, plus arguably the best movie because it's about Spiderman dealing with petty thieves for one thing . He really loved how spidey is a massive newbie and still will be past this movie.
Jay on the other hand, as the one who hasn't read the comics and has watched all movies based on his film knowledge alone, says he has a soft spot in his heart for the raimi films.
Everybody still had plenty of criticism so it's not like they ignore all of that.
Yeah I think the biggest difference between this Peter and early Peter is that this one likes having fun alongside the angst. Peter Parker in the early comics was always treated as incredibly self-serious, to the point that everyone around him thought he was an asshole or coward, and he chose to reinforce that attitude because he felt it kept him safer as Spider-Man. He didn't really start loosening up until he graduated and the late Ditko/early Romita era.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I don't understand why people can't see both versions of the character (Raimi and Watts) as valid, yet prefer one over the other. They're both very different takes on the character but they're both very much Spider-Man.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
You know we run on the Highlander ruleset.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Stop making sense and pick a side dammit.