Well, the truth is Insomniac never were real originators. They followed trends and made mostly solid games based on them. They made mascot platformers when they were hot, and first person shooters when they're hot. They're even dipping their toes into social gaming because that's hot right now. Their vision seems to be the same, the difference is that their name is being hurt by shipping things like Resistance 2, and Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One as well as no longer having the support of SCE (and the marketing, as well as the fanbase associated with being an SCE release) which shows. Fuse was unveiled rather randomly because the game means little to EA, and given its' time frame for launch it has no big public industry trade show to be shown to the gaming public.
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Insomniac: Overstrike focus groups thought the old art style was for kids
- Thread starter Tagg9
- Start date
Well, the truth is Insomniac never were real originators. They followed trends and made mostly solid games based on them. They made mascot platformers when they were hot, and first person shooters when they're hot. They're even dipping their toes into social gaming because that's hot right now. Their vision seems to be the same, the difference is that their name is being hurt by shipping things like Resistance 2, and Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One as well as no longer having the support of SCE (and the marketing, as well as the fanbase associated with being an SCE release) which shows. Fuse was unveiled rather randomly because the game means little to EA, and given its' time frame for launch it has no big public industry trade show to be shown to the gaming public.
I wonder how niche it really is? There's still stuff like Borderlands and South Park anyway, not to mention the popularity My Little Pony somehow drew from the 20-some crowd.
But with seemingly everything tanking I guess you're sort of trapped in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. :/
EDIT: Then again with the way EA operates as Takao pointed out I imagine any iteration would do OK in the hands of a more caring publisher.
TimeEffect
Member
Oh, nevermind, on the basis of what stevenson said, but still, if that was the reason, then is that also the reason their current version is even more stripped of the animated themes of the OS trailer?
Not to mention some of the comparisons are simply aesthetic. Team Fortress has a visually distinct artstyle.
Okay, sure, I'll play along for a moment.
How about that cartoony isometric hack and slash game that sold 10 million copies
Focus groups are a perfect illustration of "garbage in, garbage out."
The people who participate in focus groups are in no way representative of the overall gaming population. When you focus group you get the feedback of people who participate in focus groups - which is a specific demographic that is a tiny subset of actual gamers.
And many times if you are in the same region, like say LA, you are getting the same small group of people that also focus group for other devs in the area.
The people who participate in focus groups are in no way representative of the overall gaming population. When you focus group you get the feedback of people who participate in focus groups - which is a specific demographic that is a tiny subset of actual gamers.
And many times if you are in the same region, like say LA, you are getting the same small group of people that also focus group for other devs in the area.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
TF2 is niche? You have no idea how much money the game has made, do you?
The "mainstream" console market actually garners far far less money than the "niche" PC crowd you're talking about (especially once TF2 went free to play). The point that they're different revenue models is kind of the point. The art style doesn't matter as long as the gameplay and revenue model aren't offensive. TF2 is evidence of that level of success.
I'm always happy to bring in people who buy games to have them play. I remember watching a Dead Space test where one guy got pissed and put his controller down. He then looked around like, "Can I leave now?". I was thinking, "Dayooommmmm."
Anyway if you keep testing your game and the testers keep giving the same feedback you ignore at your own peril.
Not sure how much I agree, but those generalizations do have limits. ACiT is a underrated masterpiece. Even if the franchise stemmed from something worse.
dude, Team Fortress 2 is huge....
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I prefer Bald Cole over Nathan Drake's Cole.
Yeah, admittedly the point of mine and others is more that cartoony styles HAVE worked before, though it may depend somewhat on how they're used. South Park and TF2 use it for contrast I think, to make everything funnier because it's so violent and out there, yet nothing looks realistic, whereas if Overstrike didn't go that far it'd probably just seem like Loony Toons slapstick to them. Well, I guess that IS the point, problem is it SEEMED like you could reliably sell that to people now (or at least not those picked for focus groups).
Guess the answer is to make the boxart only loosely indicative of the actual product? Not a new strategy!
The big problem with the redesign was how jarring it was and how it broke consistency. It's like they needed a new actor and didn't even TRY to find a lookalike. If he looked like that in inFamous 1 (or more plausibly could go on to look like he did in 2) I would've had no problem whatsoever.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Right an you do things to avoid drawing from the same pool. And if you bring in Ratchet fans and they are saying the same thing...
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Focus groups can focus on this group of nuts. Every time I hear about them they're shitting something up.
In comparison to...??? Certainly nothing major on console.
You know the market Fuse is for.
Chuck Norris
Banned
A change would have been fine, turning him into looks like he's been lifted from One Direction was not cool.
What would have been so hard about giving old Cole a new hair cut or some facial hair? Differing elements without changing hm into something totally different
chertipros
Member
Is it niche because It's not on consoles?
I have no problems with focus groups, just that I don't think the answer to a focus group is to do exactly what they say, but rather try to find the root of what they're really saying is wrong.
Like, for example, if people complain a shotgun is bad, the answer isn't necessarily just to make the weapon more strong, but to make the level in which you have a shotgun more conducive to how shotguns work.
If there were complaints that Overstrike felt like it was for children, I would propose the solution was not to make it really hard to distinguish from other games visually, but rather to try and modify it into a unique artistic style that retained their goal of looking cartoonish without eliciting this response.
That way, they retain a unique direction, but don't risk having a toxic reaction if they've already received approval from customers.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
Yeah. I hate to break it to Insomniac, but 12 year olds are little kids. They're immature and they are not going to understand or comprehend what mature is.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Because Cole needed a "back to the drawing board" redesign in the first place.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
This will be a nice footnote to cite back in the future, at least.
TF2 is on consoles, just not in its updated form.
Did I say that?
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Do you seriously have no idea how much TF2 has made?
TF2 has made more than most developers would DREAM of making.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
Why would we only test with 12 year olds?
I specifically call out Resistance 2, and All 4 One due to the negative reception the first received by gaming communities that pretty much killed that franchise, and the equally unpleasant reception the latter received by both the press and gaming communities. This isn't to say Insomniac isn't capable of making a good game, because they are. In fact, I grew up with many of them. It's simply to say that I have always felt they were solid but not spectacular and part of the reason is because they've always played it safe. Then again, the two games I called out show what happens when they don't play it safe, lol.
Criminal Upper
Banned
Focus groups is what is killing this industry. They don't work, and they make the game worse.
Admittedly that was also at the time when they wanted to be more ambitious with the sequel, only to be brutally beaten to the punch. Cartoony revival was the best path afterwards.
TF2 was popular on 360 too, the game is just 5 years old now and didn't receive any updates, that's why it's dead now. TF2 hats must be making more money than many console shooters...
Overstrike's for a different market altogether. Their won't even be a PC version. Enlighten me, please. My question is: does it matter? I'm saying Borderlands is an apt comparison, TF2 is not.
This I knew.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Following a trend is fine, but you need to have a strong vision to go with it. Ratchet and Clank was a strong vision, yes it hit when platformers were hot but it was also very creative and original and the combination of creative weapons and platforming was unique
Naughty dog follow trends, from third person shooters to apocalypse genre, but they establish a vision and a goal of how to do it the best, how to captivate audiences and make it different from what else is in the genre. Insomniac aren't doing that anymore. Seems like Fuse started off kindof original and slowly they have tried to make it like everything else. They only need to look at borderlands or TF2 to see a colorful art style and a shooter meshing successfully
Seems like every game they make now is getting more generic. I can only assume they have lost a lot of talent
TimeEffect
Member
Playing ACiT right now, and it's simply wonderful. An amazing advancement in R&C's formula. Amazes me how much more varied it is, and how much more they added. Surprised it is so overlooked, but I figure people are burnt out on Ratchet. I pray Insomniac is not done making these kinds of games, over humanoid titles.
entremet
Member
Yep. Most people have awful, shite taste.
Henry Ford, when talking about the if people wanted the automobile said, "If Id asked customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse?"
AcceptableGhost
Member
I don't think you know what niche is. FUSE is going to be niche compared to TF2.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Our modern equivalent to the Hays Code in a sort of way? Maybe not yet. The backlash will be absolutely brutal if the industry actually ends up coming up with a Production Code like that.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I'm sure you didn't. I just wouldn't take what 12 year olds say to heart on what they think about an art style being for little kids or not. I'm sure you tested for many other things and I'm sure you had people of various demographics test all of those things (art style included). Honestly, I would have loved to see a gory game with a cartoony art style but I guess I can understand why that's not mass market appeal.
It's just that when I saw the original concept video for Fuse (Overstrike), I was stoked. It looked so awesome with a lot of personality. This new concept just doesn't ring with me as much. I'm sure the game will be good and the art style won't prevent me from picking it up either way but the original concept looked so good.
All I remember from one of the groups I went to was hoping for girls with big boobs in fighting games. This was for a focus group that was presumably for SF4 in like 2003/4
This post focus tested poorly with the male 18-24 "dudebro" demographic. You should probably add more gore and swear words so people can take it seriously and not think it's for kids.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Oh I know. I thought it would be a funny response.
yeah, but Henry Ford was a nazi sympathizer.
CHECKMATE, ENTREMENT
Usability testing is not focus testing.
Usability testing has problems, mostly with how people interpret results (oh noes one guy got stuck for 20 seconds better dumb this section down!!!) but in general usability testing is a good thing.
Focus grouping, on the other hand, is bringing in a bunch of semi-professional numbskulls, providing them essentially no context, then having them make trite meaningless observations. Focus grouping is asking people if they would play a game where you are a plumber and every single one saying no, then asking them if they would play a game where you are a bald space marine who can raise and lower dirt with a special gun and them all saying yes - which is why Fracture is the best selling franchise of all time and nobody has heard of Mario.
The end result of a focus group is generally what one reasonably intelligent person could have predicted up front - this game looks like it is for babies and how about a section where you drive a sweet vehicle?
Can you tell I think focus groups are great?
AcceptableGhost
Member
Focus groups are the quick death of anything creative (not to be confused with playtesting of course).
I've seen very little evidence that some grown men know what mature is in this context.
See: G4.
Which is as good as a "yes," codecow. So you are responsible! *torch and pitchfork*
Not that I give a damn. It looked bland in the E3 trailer, couldn't really peg an age target.
The first three Ratchet and Clank games and the Future games on the PS3 were all awesome games. The PS2 Ratchet and Clank games were different than what was on the market. They were the first ones to use gravity platforming on 3D planes not Mario Galaxy.
I think you are selling Insomniac short. They killed it during the PS2 era. I hope they haven't moved on from making full-length Ratchet and Clank games. I know I'll play FFA, but I don't want them to abandon big Ratchet games like they did with Resistance.