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[TimeEffect]

Following a trend is fine, but you need to have a strong vision to go with it. Ratchet and Clank was a strong vision, yes it hit when platformers were hot but it was also very creative and original and the combination of creative weapons and platforming was unique


Seems like every game they make now is getting more generic. I can only assume they have lost a lot of talent

I just dont get how Ted Price went this direction. I know they are dealing with EA right now, but I dont get why this is what they want. It just doesnt make sense to me

 

[Chuck Norris]

Because Cole needed a "back to the drawing board" redesign in the first place.

He really didn't, the character design was so simple that he was a blank canvas anyway. The best part of Coles original design was the fact he was ugly. Changes should have been to make him meaner and tougher, more Wolverine not more Justin Bieber.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

with everything non R&C, looks like Insomniac sucks.
editLmore accurate now

 

[Kagari]

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that focus groups are a great way to kill something original. Focus groups are awful. Every time I've seen candid video of a focus group, the people involved have given the worst opinions imaginable. But, I suppose they represent the general public, so that shouldn't be too surprising.

That said, the general public tends to have terrible tastes as it is.

 

[TimeEffect]

The first three Ratchet and Clank games and the Future games on the PS3 were all awesome games. The PS2 Ratchet and Clank games were different than what was on the market. They were the first ones to use gravity platforming on 3D planes not Mario Galaxy.

I think you are selling Insomniac short. They killed it during the PS2 era. I hope they haven't moved on from making full-length Ratchet and Clank games. I know I'll play FFA, but I don't want them to abandon big Ratchet games like they did with Resistance.

Sonic Adventure did that before Insomniac, but that's besides the point. Insomniac were great

 

[rdrr gnr]

There is no inherent evil in the concept of a quantitative evaluation of a set of ideas via questionnaires (etc.) given to representative population or demographic. The fault ultimately lies on the publishers and developers to: (1) Contextualize and limit feedback; (2) Incorporate feedback in an intelligent manner while making case-by-case value judgement regarding recommendations. A focus group could absolutely be "wrong" in the sense their perspective is misaligned with numerous other factors, like, say, Insomniac's history of cartoon-y franchises. Same goes for "play" testing. An easy level is not necessarily a good level -- and an ostensibly impossible or extremely difficult level is not a bad one.

Playing ACiT right now, and it's simply wonderful. An amazing advancement in R&C's formula. Amazes me how much more varied it is, and how much more they added. Surprised it is so overlooked, but I figure people are burnt out on Ratchet. I pray Insomniac is not done making these kinds of games, over humanoid titles.

It's an amazing game -- especially the Clank levels towards the end (and the bonus Clank levels). In my opinion, it is a more creative and ambitious game than a certain other popular franchise that took place in space -- but I dare not say it.

 

[JABEE]

I specifically call out Resistance 2, and All 4 One due to the negative reception the first received by gaming communities that pretty much killed that franchise, and the equally unpleasant reception the latter received by both the press and gaming communities. This isn't to say Insomniac isn't capable of making a good game, because they are. In fact, I grew up with many of them. It's simply to say that I have always felt they were solid but not spectacular and part of the reason is because they've always played it safe. Then again, the two games I called out show what happens when they don't play it safe, lol.

I think you need to look back at platformers before Ratchet and Clank. They took some big risks and left a mark on platformers. Look at Mario Galaxy which followed Insomniac's trend of manipulating gravity in a 3D platformer.

 

[Nirolak]

Okay, so, jstevenson, I have two honest questions.

1.) What do you feel Gearbox did with their art style that caused them not to elicit the response Overstrike got in focus groups while retaining their colorful, cartoony art style and actually managing to sell millions upon millions of copies on consoles?

I've included a few sample pictures so we don't have to random google image search while having a discussion.

2.) Why do you feel it was a better idea for Overstrike/Fuse to switch to a much more photorealistic, grayscaled style than try to make something more cartoony and/or non-photorealisticly stylized for the final art direction, even if it was significantly different than the E3 trailer for Overstrike?

If the answer is "We honestly felt that from a creative perspective it was a vastly better idea to go the photorealistic route," I promise to stop criticizing your art style decisions in threads and will reply to your post saying that at least you're sticking to your new creative vision, which you felt was a better choice overwhelmingly due to creative decisions.

However, so far half the responses I've seen so far are related to this being a good business decision, and if the reason for the change at least contains a significant business component, I'm honestly curious why you feel this is the better business direction than taking the other direction of trying to make your product look more different (even if it looked nothing like Overstrike E3) given the amount of crowding in the market.

 

[Shrennin]

I've seen very little evidence that some grown men know what mature is in this context.

See: G4.

Touche! Although that's really another problem for another day. G4 represents the modern populace delving into games that have mass, mass market appeal (like CoD). There's very few games that reach that which is why many games that try to (see Dragon Age) ultimately end in disappointment to their core base.

 

[Jawmuncher]

For Kids.....

Well shit I guess Borderlands 1 and 2 are for kids to.

 

[GoofsterStud]

I miss the old art style. I enjoyed the unique vibe resulting from the appearance.

I must be 12....

 

[Shrennin]

For Kids.....

Well shit I guess Borderlands 1 and 2 are for kids to.

They did self-censor the violence in Borderlands 2. =P

 

[Psychological Intellect]

nirolak, had borderlands 2 already sold that much already? because you only have pics of that but if you're talking about the first game, the last word i'd use to describe it is colorful.

and jstevensen and i think ted price said the reason for the change was that they couldn't portray the emotions of the cinematics in the game while taking it seriously with the old style.

which makes no sense to me.

 

[Timan]

Has anything good come from a focus group in terms of the gaming industry?

 

[Chuck Norris]

The ironic thing is Borderlands did the exact opposite of Insomniac. It started out as a generic looking realistic game and they changed the art style because they didn't stand out. And it helped them immensely.

 

[Sheroking]

The problem with this type of focus testing is that these projects will hit a specific audience. Attempting to brand your product based on a sampling of randoms isn't going to give you any usable results against what is already a specialty product.

 

[Nirolak]

nirolak, had borderlands 2 already sold that much already? because you only have pics of that but if you're talking about the first game, the last word i'd use to describe it is colorful.

While less colorful, I wouldn't define it as devoid of color by any means.

 

[alr1ght]

Gotta appeal to those 12 year olds who only play COD.

 

[Shrennin]

The ironic thing is Borderlands did the exact opposite of Insomniac. It started out as a generic looking realistic game and they changed the art style because they didn't stand out. And it helped them immensely.

Wait, you're talking about before they went to cell-shading they had a realistic art style? Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[Nirolak]

Wait, you're talking about before they went to cell-shading they had a realistic art style? Interesting. I didn't know that.

Original Borderlands (Mordecai and Brick):

 

[Duffyside]

Actually, if I'm remembering my timing right as well as the context of this portion of the interview, Brian is referring to the style PRIOR to the E3 Overstike trailer, that style was never shown.

This doesn't make sense to me. How cartoony was this supposed original style? The switch from version 1 to version 2 couldn't have been as severe as 2 to 3 is, could it? And why would Brian even mention this original style, since no one saw it and thus no one could be reacting to it? And why wouldn't the same reasons for changing styles in the supposed first instance be the same for the second, since that change is very severe? That too would have been like herding elephants and changing course with a huge ship, yes?

 

[jstevenson]

Okay, so, jstevenson, I have two honest questions.

1.) What do you feel Gearbox did with their art style that caused them not to elicit the response Overstrike got in focus groups while retaining their colorful, cartoony art style and actually managing to sell millions upon millions of copies on consoles?

I've included a few sample pictures so we don't have to random google image search while having a discussion.



2.) Why do you feel it was a better idea for Overstrike/Fuse to switch to a much more photorealistic, grayscaled style than try to make something more cartoony and/or non-photorealisticly stylized for the final art direction, even if it was significantly different than the E3 trailer for Overstrike?

If the answer is "We honestly felt that from a creative perspective it was a vastly better idea to go the photorealistic route," I promise to stop criticizing your art style decisions in threads and will reply to your post saying that at least you're sticking to your new creative vision, which you felt was a better decision overwhelmingly due to creative choices.

However, so far half the responses I've seen so far are related to this being a good business decision, and if the reason for the change at least contains a significant business component, I'm honestly curious why you feel this is the better business direction than taking the other direction of trying to make your product look more different (even if it looked nothing like Overstrike E3) given the amount of crowding in the market.

I can't speak to Gearbox as I didn't follow their situation or response to it that closely.

In terms of our situation, as Ted has said, we had the Overstrike style, but it just wasn't creatively gelling in that T-rating style.

We decided to basically refocus on the weapons and the core gameplay, and turn ourselves loose in a big iteration. Fuse came out of that, the tone changed a bit, but the true honesty is we found a creative spark that started driving everything from that point forward.

Honestly it was a moment like settling on the WW2 era for Resistance, or "let's make a game about a furry guy who runs arou d and collects weapons an gadget on different planets".

I can say it really has been a huge creative win for the studio, and I think the game is playing better than ever.

We will see what everyone thinks of the final product, and the community feedback has been taken really seriously here and is shaping what we will show next as well as some of our final decisions as we come down the stretch here.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

While less colorful, I wouldn't define it as devoid of color by any means.

well, the color range of pretty much the entire game is pretty much that of generic gritty shooters. even in the two pics you got there you have muted colors pale skin tones and browns and grays everywhere.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Wait, you're talking about before they went to cell-shading they had a realistic art style? Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[Ridley327]

Wait, you're talking about before they went to cell-shading they had a realistic art style? Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[GDGF]

and jstevensen and i think ted price said the reason for the change was that they couldn't portray the emotions of the cinematics in the game while taking it seriously with the old style.

That excuse might have been valid if there wasn't precedent showing otherwise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frp4AtPshRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fPmKfcaaWk

 

[Shrennin]

Original Borderlands (Mordecai and Brick):

*realistic BL1 pics*

*more realistic BL1 pics*

Oh. Wow. Glad they made that change. The thing about Borderlands is that the art style fits its style of humor and everything about it. That's one thing that most games don't really get right.

 

[Totobeni]

Borderlands is great example and Insomniac guys should take a look at it because it was going very realistic then got changed to a cartoony style and B2 is even more cartoony and colorful, and the IP sold well.

 

[Slavik81]

According to the game’s visionary, Brian Allgeier, Overstrike began when “a lot of people were itching to work on more cooperative multiplayer games. Even though we’ve done a ton of multiplayer modes in the past for Resistance and the Ratchet series, this was an opportunity for us to really delve deeply into a co-op experience campaign.” And the spirit of Fuse remains the same as Overstrike’s, even though other parts of the game have since changed completely.

Really? I only played a small portion of it, but Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One felt terrible. And, looking at the critical response, it was one of the worst received games in the series.

Why would they want to continue that?

 

[PBalfredo]

No one should ever listen to 12 year olds.

Not just in focus groups, but ever. It's right at the point where they're still just as immature as kids, but as stubborn as teenagers.

 

[Nirolak]

I can't speak to Gearbox as I didn't follow their situation or response to it that closely.

In terms of our situation, as Ted has said, we had the Overstrike style, but it just wasn't creatively gelling in that T-rating style.

We decided to basically refocus on the weapons and the core gameplay, and turn ourselves loose in a big iteration. Fuse came out of that, the tone changed a bit, but the true honesty is we found a creative spark that started driving everything from that point forward.

Honestly it was a moment like settling on the WW2 era for Resistance, or "let's make a game about a furry guy who runs arou d and collects weapons an gadget on different planets".

I can say it really has been a huge creative win for the studio, and I think the game is playing better than ever.

We will see what everyone thinks of the final product, and the community feedback has been taken really seriously here and is shaping what we will show next as well as some of our final decisions as we come down the stretch here.

Thank you for responding to my question.

I wish you the best of luck, and I am open to seeing what you present in the future.

 

[alr1ght]

olderlands (shitty quality)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jghY8i9knyU

 

[jello44]

While less colorful, I wouldn't define it as devoid of color by any means.

Playing as the Siren, all I SAW was color

Spoiler

ed Numbers. :3

I kid, it had its fair share of color, 2 is just far more colorful.

 

[Derrick01]

Casuals are choking this industry to death. And there's not a damn thing any one of us can do about it.

 

[Psychological Intellect]

That excuse might have been valid if there wasn't precedent showing otherwise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frp4AtPshRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fPmKfcaaWk

i know right, it just makes them look not skilled enough to pull it off.

 

[Ridley327]

Oh. Wow. Glad they made that change. The thing about Borderlands is that the art style fits its style of humor and everything about it. That's one thing that most games don't really get right.

Funny enough, when the new style debuted, it got bitched about non-stop.

And of course, the Legend of Celda still echoes within the halls of Space Worlds that never came to be.

 

[Nirolak]

Playing as the Siren, all I SAW was color.

Spoiler

ed Numbers. :3

I kid, it had its fair share of color, 2 is just far more colorful.

Yeah, Gearbox openly said they tried for far more color in the sequel.

Even some of the characters from the first game like Lilith got a redesign to fit in with that.

Funny enough, when the new style debuted, it got bitched about non-stop.

And of course, the Legend of Celda still echoes within the halls of Space Worlds that never came to be.

I do remember this. I was quite fond of it since the PC Gamer scan, but yeah, it was far from everyone.

 

[inky]

That said, the general public tends to have terrible tastes as it is.

They also tend to have big purchasing power (Transformers, anyone?) So there's that =/

Insomniac is going to be on a very rough spot with this game IMO, regardless of this. Hopefully they are better prepared to tackle next-gen and have some other, fresher ideas than what has come out from them lately.

 

[george_us]

Generic as fuck art style aside, Fuse looks like a shit load of fun to play.

 

[jello44]

olderlands (shitty quality)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jghY8i9knyU

Oh wow, the version we got was so much better.

 

[Ridley327]

I do remember this. I was quite fond of it since the PC Gamer scan, but yeah, it was far from everyone.

The weird part was that I don't think the game was really on anyone's radar at that point; 2K never did a great job of showing off the game prior to the art change, so having such a vocal outrage when they re-revealed the title was surprising.

 

[Shrennin]

Funny enough, when the new style debuted, it got bitched about non-stop.

And of course, the Legend of Celda still echoes within the halls of Space Worlds that never came to be.

BL1 actually gave me motion sickness and I could never really understand why. The last game to give me motion sickness was either Goldeneye or Hey You! Pikachu!

>_>

Anyway, now I don't get motion sick with either games so I love the art style. I always attributed my original motion sickness to the art style so I wasn't fond of it originally for that reason.

 

[Nirolak]

The weird part was that I don't think the game was really on anyone's radar at that point; 2K never did a great job of showing off the game prior to the art change, so having such a vocal outrage when they re-revealed the title was surprising.

Yeah, I feel it was helpful in the same way the Dragon Age: Origins "New Shit" trailer was helpful.

People everywhere were talking about it afterwards.

BL1 actually gave me motion sickness and I could never really understand why. The last game to give me motion sickness was either Goldeneye or Hey You! Pikachu!

>_>

Anyway, now I don't get motion sick with either games so I love the art style. I always attributed my original motion sickness to the art style so I wasn't fond of it originally for that reason.

My guess would be that the FOV was problematically narrow.

 

[Kintaro]

Thanks to the recent IGN article, we have a better idea of why they changed the game from their original vision:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/09/28/always-independent-the-story-of-insomniac-games

Watching this company shit the bed with this game is...sad to see.

 

[Margalis]

In terms of our situation, as Ted has said, we had the Overstrike style, but it just wasn't creatively gelling in that T-rating style.

It makes me very sad to read stuff like this.

Aesthetics and content are not the same. An aesthetic cannot be T-rated - ratings are for content. I think these days, with the prominence of anime and such, even the general public understands that a cartoony look does not necessarily imply content for kids. Even oldsters had stuff like Fritz the Cat.

The idea that an aesthetic can be T-rated is IMO the result of a self-limiting mental block. If you want to have a weapon that saws heads off in a game with a cartoony art style nothing prevents that. I suspect a lot of this comes from being the studio that makes Ratchet and Clank, where the cartoony aesthetic is matched by traditionally cartoon content.

 

[Raonak]

Not fond of the new artstyle. but didn't really like the overstrike artstyle either.

i guess in their defence; cartoony artstyles only work nicely for cartoony games.
the humour in borderlands and TF2 sets the mood.

it would be harder to make a serious story set within a cartoony world.

 

[Akainu]

Did anyone actually think it wasn't focus groups?

 

[Jawmuncher]

Did anyone actually think it wasn't focus groups?

I assumed it was just EA being EA.

 

[Shrennin]

My guess would be that the FOV was problematically narrow.

That's probably it. Did they fix this in a patch or something? I don't really get motion sick from it now unless I think about it, then I can feel a little queasy.

 

[Ridley327]

Did anyone actually think it wasn't focus groups?

Well, Resistance also looked duller than a rusty butter knife, so I would have given it a 50/50 chance, had it not been for who Insomniac has partnered up with for this title.