Support NeoGAF

[ULTROS!]

This.

Wasn't FFXIII or FFXIII-2 the result of a focus group?

 

[Kagari]

I mentioned this in another thread, I was in one of those focus groups in Austin. Not sure how much I'm allowed to talk about now as there was an NDA (though everything we saw and way more has been public for a long time), but this definitely was the problem. I seemed to be the only one who was like "Cool, it could be like playing a really good game for The Incredibles or something". Almost everyone else reacted just like this article says. And I couldn't help but overhear everyone else also arranging times to play CoD and/or Battlefield with each other, no joke.

EDIT: actually read through the thread now, my group saw the E3 trailer and some REALLY early gameplay, it wasn't the apparently even more "kiddy" pre-Overstrike he's talking about.

Sigh.

Wasn't FFXIII or FFXIII-2 the result of a focus group?

XIII-2 was HEAVILY focus grouped in the sense that they took nearly every single complaint from XIII and made a game. Even to the point of taking feedback from the E3 demo. The Invisible Invaders song had the lyrics in it at the time and the team removed it for the English version based on journalists bringing it up at E3.

 

[linko9]

I don't think focus groups are completely worthless, but I'll never understand how a group of creative people can have their vision so violently shaken by a group of uninformed randos off the street playing their game for an hour or so. Have some integrity for Christ's sakes.

 

[Parakeetman]

I will also throw out the notion of "fuck focus groups". Next time ask the fans directly for input first, if you still arent convinced then go with the fail focus groups. Hell even if it was a pre-overstrike look, couldnt be worse than what we have now.

Since the new product dont care for it at all now and will most def not be purchasing it.

With that being said wish you guys luck, since you all are seriously going to need it.

 

[TimeEffect]

Again. Please re-read my comments in the OP. this refers to the ORIGINAL pitch -> Overstrike.

It does not refer to Overstrike -> Fuse

Im curious if the original pitch was even better than Overstrike now lol.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I really, really hate focus groups. I think it's one thing to bring in a group to play your game to study what works or what doesn't work in a particular level or puzzle, but I think my biggest gripe with a lot of games these days is that they are so focus group tested that it's a detriment to the creativity of the designers.

It's getting to the point that every game feels like it was designed for the Idiocracy.

 

[thehypocrite]

Focus group, killing originality since their beginning. I think consulting firms and focus groups are just made to safeguard and avoid any responsibilities for failures.

Lame EA/Insomniac.

 

[LunaticLMD]

I understand getting opinions from focus groups, but no one said they liked the cartoony, original Overstrike style?

Really? It couldn't have been that unanimous.

Ugh...

 

[Hazaro]

I was in a gaming focus group before.

It was an action-platformer. Every single person except me had the following input for the game, "It would be better if it was a shooter".

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

Im curious if the original pitch was even better than Overstrike now lol.

lol that's what I'm thinking

 

[zoukka]

I actually have some real life experience from focus groups (on games) and they can be a painful experience for any creative folk.

Ok, they are always a painful experience. I love them when you test your games user interface though.

 

[Amagon]

Fucking focus groups ruin EVERYTHING!

 

[ULTROS!]

It could be better if the focus groups were diverse, like people coming from different countries who played different games (like someone from Korea, Japan, SEA, South America, EU, and NA).

Spoiler

Although that doesn't sound focused at all

.

I was in a gaming focus group before.

It was an action-platformer. Every single person except me had the following input for the game, "It would be better if it was a shooter".

This made me weep a bit.

 

[LunaticLMD]

I was in a gaming focus group before.

It was an action-platformer. Every single person except me had the following input for the game, "It would be better if it was a shooter".

Ugh...

 

[Hazaro]

Fucking focus groups ruin EVERYTHING!

They appeal to more of the mass market who usually just want more of what they are familiar with. First impressions are a big deal.

But certainly something very different than testing food or toys imo. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if it did sell more with crazy weapons in a more realistic setting. Just sad the style is gone.

 

[JasonUresti]

Why would Insomniac have any confidence this will perform better than Inversion, Binary Domain, or Army of Two?

 

[Ploid 3.0]

olderlands (shitty quality)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jghY8i9knyU

Wow I didn't watch it all but I think I saw the color red!! This game would have been so boring with that style. Everything looked the same, good move Gear Box and I love the screens of Borderlands 2. I'll be getting it soon but have to finish up TL2 and I'm hooked on GW2 (amazing color in GW2 and it impresses the crap out of me still).

 

[zoukka]

It could be better if the focus groups were diverse, like people coming from different countries who played different games (like someone from Korea, Japan, SEA, South America, EU, and NA).

You have the wrong idea. The people in those focus groups don't have to be gamers at all. They often aren't. Just random people.

Though I don't know if Insomniac chose a more specialized group for this game. Doubt it considering they are going after mass appeal.

 

[Orayn]

Why would Insomniac have any confidence this will perform better than Inversion, Binary Domain, or Army of Two?

Army of Two was a moderate success, at least the first one.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

So instead of a carefree fucking douche, you'd prefer your douches to be straight-up with just a hint of Mein Kampf?

I don't know if the gentler Cole was the best route they could have gone in, but the answer wasn't to take the old design and give him a scar.

Yeah, to reflect about the circumstance that he had to endure and to set the mood for the game. Carefree fucking douche would ruin the mood of the game, and show that Cole has never had a miserable day in his life. The reality of the situation should be reflected on character design.

 

[Whompa]

Whatever. That's what you get by "manufacturing" a game based on focus groups...go by strict generic performance strategies and that's what you'll get.

 

[NullPointer]

Final Infamous 2 Cole says otherwise.

No.

If Infamous 1 had released with that character design there wouldnt be a fuss - like it or not they already established the look and sound of Cole - changing it led to the outcry. You see some of the same thing in the 'new' Sam Fisher and Devil May Cry.

If you're going to redesign a lead character to give a different tone, you might as well just make them someone new.

Not to say GAF would be the best focus group, but its got to be better than what they had ;p Choose your poison: Unmitigated hate for weird reasons or people pushing for COD clones.

 

[whalleywhat]

Is having any modicum of self-respect something they don't allow for participants of focus groups?

It's like saying you're racist when you're up for jury duty.

 

[Eusis]

I was in a gaming focus group before.

It was an action-platformer. Every single person except me had the following input for the game, "It would be better if it was a shooter".

Stuff like this makes me convinced at least SOME suggestions should be thrown out without thinking twice. Not every damn game needs to be a shooter, given how absolutely STUFFED the industry is with them it's simply not worth pursuing when 90% of them would just keep on playing CoD/Battlefield and maybe Gears/Halo.

 

[eXistor]

Same focus group as Dishonored confirmed.

 

[Femmeworth]

*bangs head on desk*

Final Infamous 2 Cole says otherwise.

I like ugly Cole. >_>

 

[CambriaRising]

Focus groups are absolutely useless when it comes to gaming. If Minecraft had had a focus group, it would have never been made.

 

[web01]

They clearly want the dude bro audience.
Game design by focus group doesn't work we have seen this time and time again.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Focus group? Do they mean Fuck us Group because that's what they did.

I thought we established that we're 35 y/os on average!

Shit what do we even need the ESRB for if this is how things will work out?

 

[bridegur]

Not a surprise. Insomniac makes good games, but they always feel extremely focus tested.

 

[whalleywhat]

Focus group? Do they mean Fuck us Group because that's what they did.

Taking this.

I'm always happy to bring in people who buy games to have them play. I remember watching a Dead Space test where one guy got pissed and put his controller down. He then looked around like, "Can I leave now?". I was thinking, "Dayooommmmm."

Anyway if you keep testing your game and the testers keep giving the same feedback you ignore at your own peril.

I think there's big difference between play testing to make sure there are no glaring deficiencies of level design and this sort of wholesale change of direction.

 

[Reallink]

Do preteens and teens even amount to a large portion of console audience anymore? I would have figured we'd lost so many of them to phones/tablets/facebook by this point, the 20's and 30's demo would dwarf them.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

I won't say that I won't try and enjoy your game Insomniac, but I am pretty sure will have a hard time remembering it. It won't stick with me like Ratchet & Clank did.

I thought you guys learned your lesson from Resistance ...

 

[TyrantGuardian]

...and this is why I have almost zero interest in "Triple A" video games. I don't even want to know how often this sort of stuff happens without anyone hearing about it.

 

[Skerj]

I just want old Jacob back, can I have snazzy shirt and tie instead of Gears armor!?

 

[CoilShot]

Fuck focus groups.

Unless I'm in it. Cause I like me

So true

 

[Eusis]

Focus groups are absolutely useless when it comes to gaming. If Minecraft had had a focus group, it would have never been made.

No, I'm sure they're very useful for games... on the mechnical level. But then I'm thinking more surprise play testing than anything else, make them play a decent chunk of the game and see what they feel is off (and if they complain about it not being a shooter disregard it unless it actually makes some sort of sense). I imagine, say, the two archers in Dark Souls wouldn't have survived a focus group play testing if they were to remember to take everything with a grain of salt.

Eugh, and now I'm remembering how Nanashi no Game may've failed to come out here BECAUSE of focus groups. Fuck them when it comes to metrics of taste, I'm sure for every instance where they give sound advice there'd be ten others who give something stupid like "hero isn't badass enough" or whatever.

 

[Yuripaw]

Isn't focus groups the reason we got shitty dreadlocks version of Nathan Spencer in Bionic Commando? Yeah, fuck focus groups.

 

[NBtoaster]

There's a difference between playtesting and what Insomniac used these focus groups for.

Insomniac now do extremely extensive playtesting too. User reaction to Resistance 2 probably spurred this.

Details

 

[Eusis]

Insomniac now do extremely extensive playtesting too. User reaction to Resistance 2 probably spurred this.

Huh, aren't ACiT and Resistance 3 their two most liked games as of late? This may further prove that gameplay focus testing IS a very good idea when handled correctly, though this doesn't really explain All 4 One I guess.

 

[demidar]

Focus groups aren't inherently bad, but the designer (or whoever is taking the feedback) need to run through ALL the feedback with a super-fine toothed comb, because 90% of things said by focus testers are fucking stupid (don't know what they want, expecting something else, aren't very good, bad at articulation, extremely detached, lacking game knowledge, having horrible tastes, etc. The list goes on). It's up to the designer to extract useful information from the mountain of shit they will get.

^Resistance 3 is probably the most liked out of the trilogy afaik.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Talk about having excuses lined up before the game even releases

So now we have excuses lined up to why FUSE will fail to sell:

Multi-Platform
EA
EA Partners marketing (Godspeed)
EA focus group
Too kiddy
Wanted to be leaders, but were followers again
$$$$$ > Integrity

Insomniac now do extremely extensive playtesting too. User reaction to Resistance 2 probably spurred this.

Details

Funny how A Crack in Time has the best set-up and considered the best product release by Insomniac

Just cause you did a bajillion playtesting for R3, it still just whimpered in, and whimpered out, sometimes too much playtesting devolves the game too
I still can't believe all that playtesting and the fucking MP was worse than the fucking BETA
Also Ladder animation, what are we in 1992... Jesus!
Great testing there

 

[Forkball]

I know a lot of people want the "Call of Duty demographic", but I was under the impression that hardcore CoD fans mostly JUST play CoD. We all complain about the influx of shooters this gen, but what other shooters have become truly huge? Borderlands is popular, but it definitely strays from your typical FPS build. TF2 and CS are in this category as well.

 

[whalleywhat]

I'm mostly just irate that they used that Plan B song in their trailer.

 

[Eusis]

I know a lot of people want the "Call of Duty demographic", but I was under the impression that hardcore CoD fans mostly JUST play CoD. We all complain about the influx of shooters this gen, but what other shooters have become truly huge? Borderlands is popular, but it definitely strays from your typical FPS build. TF2 and CS are in this category as well.

It's a stretch, but I believe Bioshock (well, that came JUST before CoD made everything blow up) and Deus Ex did reasonably well. I'm guessing if you've got nothing but a linear campaign and typical multiplayer you're going to have a very hard time getting noticed, whereas those games can more easily get people's interest.

It's probably the one big thing Dishonored has to its advantage actually, the fact it's more in the Bioshock/Deus Ex mold than the CoD mold.

 

[dr_rus]

Lol, focus groups.

You know, I heard Borderlands 2 is doing pretty well...

I don't mind them adding "mature" themes, but I still think a unique art style is a cool and attractive thing.

Yeah. Art style has little to do with how mature a game is. Going for some generic CoD'esque style won't make your game more mature, it'll make it mediocre.

 

[Corto]

 

[Ushojax]

Right, so now it's aimed at 15 year-olds instead of 12 year-olds.

 

[dragonelite]

Wow focus groups and people still call games art.

 

[Shion]

The AAA videogames industry of 2012, people.