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[Lonely1]

It appears increasingly likely that NAFTA is headed for the trash heap. People involved in the renegotiation of the 23-year-old trade pact are pessimistic about its chances for survival because the Trump administration seems bent on causing its death by 1,000 cuts.

An inexplicable aspect of this is that there is no constituency in the United States for NAFTA's termination.

It's clear that what he would like to do is simply withdraw from the agreement, which he can easily do by providing Canada and Mexico six months' notice in writing. But instead, his negotiators have tabled several proposals – poison pills would be a more apt description – that they know the Canadians and Mexicans won't accept. This will allow Trump to blame them for NAFTA's demise.

”Issues are being put on the table that are practically absurd," former Mexican trade minister Jaime Serra told Reuters during the fourth round of talks, which ended Sunday. ”I don't know if these are poison pills, or whether it's a negotiating position or whether they really believe they're putting forward sensible things."

Here are four of them:

• A sunset provision that would automatically terminate NAFTA after five years unless all three countries vote to keep it in force.
• Deletion of NAFTA Chapter 19, which allows parties to defend themselves against dumping and illegal subsidies by one another.
• A so-called opt-in provision to NAFTA's investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) chapter.
• A change to automotive rules of origin that would make it more difficult for Canada and Mexico to export cars to the United States.

[Canada's]Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland accused the United States of deliberately trying to undermine the North American Free Trade Agreement, calling its list of unconventional proposals "troubling."

Her remarks came during a tense joint news conference as the fourth round of NAFTA talks wrapped up in Arlington, Va., a suburb of Washington, D.C. As Freeland delivered the rebuke of the U.S. approach, her counterpart U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer silently looked down.

Freeland said the "unconventional" demands from the U.S. are making the work of negotiating the trilateral trade pact "much more challenging." She stressed that NAFTA has created jobs and opportunities for Canada, Mexico and the U.S. for the last 23 years that have benefited middle-class families.

Freeland said the U.S. demands on national content rules would "severely disrupt" supply chains, weakening North American productivity and jeopardizing thousands of jobs in all three countries.

She also warned that an updated NAFTA can't be achieved with a "winner-takes-all mindset," or one that tries to undermine, rather than modernize, the agreement.

Derek Burney, Canada's ambassador to the United States from 1989-93 who was involved with wrapping up the free-trade agreement with the U.S., wondered if the U.S. is trying to sabotage the talks.

"You have to ask yourself whether the Americans are preparing the ground for an abrogation that will be triggered by someone other than them," he told CBC News.

"So they can blame someone for the collapse other than themselves, even though it's their outlandish proposals that may trigger the demise of the negotiation."

Sources: 1 2

Is Trump admin indeed trying to sabotage the deal, or they stupid enough to believe that they are sensitive demands?

 

[djkimothy]

Obviously he is. He wants to have a reason to withdraw by putting forward non starters.

 

[Always-honest]

He is trying to sabotage everything.
He and his sad bunch of idiots want nothing less than world-chaos.

 

[JettDash]

He might actually believe he can bully Canada and Mexico into doing whatever he wants. He is unhinged and stupid.

It is hard to tell what his actual intentions are.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

An egomaniac witb a messiah complex. Of course he is.

He's a conartist.

 

[Oberon]

He is trying to sabotage everything.
He and his sad bunch of idiots want nothing less than world-chaos.

I think it's even worse than that. Trump THINKS he's doing the "smart" and "strong" thing. He's not an anarchist trying destroy everything. The destruction is a byproduct of his stupidity, greed and selfishness. I bet he believes thats the only way to make deals.

 

[googleplex]

One of the worse things Bernie Sanders and Co did was convince an entire generation of voters that NAFTA and trade deals in general were bad things.

Withdrawing from TTP was just plan stupid.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

One of the worse things Bernie Sanders and Co did was convince an entire generation of voters that NAFTA and trade deals in general were bad things.

Withdrawing from TTP was just plan stupid.

This is my No.1 problem I have with the American left. Instead of productive criticism they attack trade deals as a whole.
Its just another simple answers, just another scapegoat to explain to people why they are facing problems. Not much different than Trump telling them its because of immigrants. Its dumb populism.

 

[ultracal31]

As I mentioned before I don't think he even knows what NAFTA stands for

 

[TarNaru33]

One of the worse things Bernie Sanders and Co did was convince an entire generation of voters that NAFTA and trade deals in general were bad things.

Withdrawing from TTP was just plan stupid.

They do have bad effects for developed country's exports and requires them to mix their economy up. U.S have already made a good transition from manufacturing to service economy, though U.S understandably wants to keep their manufacturing industries alive.

 

[kyser73]

He's trying to sabotage the whole Western capitalist hegemony.

 

[SyNapSe]

He might actually believe he can bully Canada and Mexico into doing whatever he wants. He is unhinged and stupid.

It is hard to tell what his actual intentions are.

Or it comes at little cost to him to try and bully them. If you do it frequently and back down in the end you'll obviously develop a reputation. These negotiations will go through 2018 which is half way through his term in office

 

[Log4Girlz]

As I mentioned before I don't think he even knows what NAFTA stands for

Not American Fake Trade Agreement

 

[PataHikari]

Nah. This is just how Trump negotiates.

He's used to being the richest guy in the room and can get away with absurd demands and just threatening to walk.

But that doesn't work when you're dealing with nations, rather then trying to rip off smaller companies and middle class people.

 

[Lonely1]

Or it comes at little cost to him to try and bully them. If you do it frequently and back down in the end you'll obviously develop a reputation. These negotiations will go through 2018 which is half way through his term in office

There are Mexican presidential elections in mid 2018, and Trump has done his best to set the stage for anti-USA political campaigns.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

One of the worse things Bernie Sanders and Co did was convince an entire generation of voters that NAFTA and trade deals in general were bad things.

Withdrawing from TTP was just plan stupid.

It was actually one of the best things he did during his campaign run and very much appreciated.

Take Mexico and Vietnam, he says. One has a long border with the richest country in the world and has had a free-trade agreement with its neighbour across the Rio Grande. It receives oodles of inward investment and sends its workers across the border in droves. It is fully plugged in to the global economy. The other was the subject of a US trade embargo until 1994 and suffered from trade restrictions for years after that. Unlike Mexico, Vietnam is not even a member of the WTO.

So which of the two has the better recent economic record? The question should be a no-brainer if all the free-trade theories are right - Mexico should be streets ahead of Vietnam. In fact, the opposite is true. Since Mexico signed the Nafta (North American Free Trade Agreement) deal with the US and Canada in 1992, its annual per capita growth rate has barely been above 1%. Vietnam has grown by around 5% a year for the past two decades. Poverty in Vietnam has come down dramatically: real wages in Mexico have fallen.

Rodrik doesn't buy the argument that the key to rapid development for poor countries is their willingness to liberalise trade. Nor, for that matter, does he think boosting aid makes much difference either. Looking around the world, he looks in vain for the success stories of three decades of neo-liberal orthodoxy: nations that have really made it after taking the advice - willingly or not - of the IMF and the World Bank.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/dec/12/5

In any event, if Hillary got in I fully expected people to hold her feet to fire and ensure a US withdrawal from the TPP. It not only was expected to have a negligible impact on US economic growth but it also was rife with protectionist measures on patents, copyright, ISDS and so on.

Deals like TPP and NAFTA are redistribution schemes and evidence of regulatory capture explicitly designed to enable firms to exploit the developing world and ship products back to advanced economies. It's a total sham and not about making society as a whole better off.

 

[mf.luder]

Man, they really are the best negotiators. The best, believe me.

Leaving everything in ruin in his wake.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It was actually one of the best things he did during his campaign run and very much appreciated.



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/dec/12/5

In any event, if Hillary got in I fully expected people to hold her feet to fire and ensure a US withdrawal from the TPP. It not only was expected to have a negligible impact on US economic growth but it also was rife with protectionist measures on patents, copyright, ISDS and so on.

Deals like TPP and NAFTA are redistribution schemes and evidence of regulatory capture explicitly designed to enable firms to exploit the developing world and ship products back to advanced economies. It's a total sham and not about making society as a whole better off.

Poorer country has higher growth because it comes from lower position. How is this a surprise?

 

[djkimothy]

Not American Fake Trade Agreement

<golf clap>

 

[JettDash]

It was actually one of the best things he did during his campaign run and very much appreciated.



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/dec/12/5

In any event, if Hillary got in I fully expected people to hold her feet to fire and ensure a US withdrawal from the TPP. It not only was expected to have a negligible impact on US economic growth but it also was rife with protectionist measures on patents, copyright, ISDS and so on.

Deals like TPP and NAFTA are redistribution schemes and evidence of regulatory capture explicitly designed to enable firms to exploit the developing world and ship products back to advanced economies. It's a total sham and not about making society as a whole better off.

Better to let China set the rules?

 

[Sinfamy]

I don't mind higher taxes and tariffs on imports, plus a forced taxed repatriation, but Trump isn't who I'd trust to handle it.

 

[Lonely1]

Poorer country has higher growth because it comes from lower position. How is this a surprise?

Yep, starting from lower floor. Maybe NAFTA wasn't the best deal for Mexico in 1992, but now it would be very bad to take it down.

 

[Johndoey]

Nah. This is just how Trump negotiates.

He's used to being the richest guy in the room and can get away with absurd demands and just threatening to walk.

But that doesn't work when you're dealing with nations, rather then trying to rip off smaller companies and middle class people.

Yep. He's used to being able to bullshit and bully his way through a negotiation.

 

[Always-honest]

I think it's even worse than that. Trump THINKS he's doing the "smart" and "strong" thing. He's not an anarchist trying destroy everything. The destruction is a byproduct of his stupidity, greed and selfishness. I bet he believes thats the only way to make deals.

Well i guess Bannon was more that person.
Not sure about Trump. He's just a fucking idiot.

 

[Amalthea]

Where was that article again, a few days ago, where somebody tried to explain Trumps behavior with his idea that any deal has to be a zero sum game for the "loosing" side? It really makes a lot of his strategies clearer, he thinks there can be only one winner in a deal and the losers have to get as little as possible (preferably nothing).

His economic understanding is basically that of an 13th century noble.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

He might actually believe he can bully Canada and Mexico into doing whatever he wants. He is unhinged and stupid.

It is hard to tell what his actual intentions are.

He s intentions are to ruin America for his Russian Oligarch overlords

 

[JettDash]

He s intentions are to ruin America for his Russian Oligarch overlords

I doubt it. He cares way more about his image than pleasing Putin.

He's just a dumbass.

 

[KernelPanic]

He s intentions are to ruin America for his Russian Oligarch overlords

It’s no secret that Bannon and co. are against NAFTA and that’s where this protectionism comes from. He needs a win so the other 2 countries have to bend over to make him look good.

It’s what the Trumpsters voted for.

 

[Giant Panda]

It was actually one of the best things he did during his campaign run and very much appreciated.



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/dec/12/5

In any event, if Hillary got in I fully expected people to hold her feet to fire and ensure a US withdrawal from the TPP. It not only was expected to have a negligible impact on US economic growth but it also was rife with protectionist measures on patents, copyright, ISDS and so on.

Deals like TPP and NAFTA are redistribution schemes and evidence of regulatory capture explicitly designed to enable firms to exploit the developing world and ship products back to advanced economies. It's a total sham and not about making society as a whole better off.

Just from Google:
Vietnam GDP per capita: 2,185.69 USD
Mexico GDP per capita: 8,201.31 USD

Do you not know how GDP works or are you just a troll?

 

[SolarPowered]

One of the worse things Bernie Sanders and Co did was convince an entire generation of voters that NAFTA and trade deals in general were bad things.

Withdrawing from TTP was just plan stupid.

One of the worst things corporate America did was funnel most of the profits straight into shareholder pockets, CEO bonuses and dark offshore bank accounts until the American public reached it's breaking point and elected an ignorant (to say the least) madman. I've said this before, but Obama's trade deals didn't die because of Bernie or Trump. The latter two were merely giving voice to grievances that were already there, but ignored by both parties. Keep funneling money exclusively to the top while ignoring everyone else (except maybe a platitude here and there for the middle class) and people will get desperate enough to try and upend the system hoping for change.

 

[JettDash]

One of the worst things corporate America did was funnel most of the profits straight into shareholder pockets, CEO bonuses and dark offshore bank accounts until the American public reached it's breaking point and elected an ignorant (to say the least) madman. I've said this before, but Obama's trade deals didn't die because of Bernie or Trump. Keep funneling money exclusively to the top and people will get desperate enough to try and upend the system hoping for change.

Yeah let's counter the radical GOP idea that all taxes against rich people must be resisted at all costs by electing more Republicans.

People voted for Trump because they are scumbags and/or idiots. Just the same reason they vote for Republicans in Congress.

 

[DopeyFish]

I hope someone tells him the whole point of NAFTA was protectionism and tariff avoidance

 

[Dr.Acula]

The thing is that the Mexcian and Canadian governments can't come out and say, "we don't want to negotiate with Trump because he's aligned himself with Russian interests in order to sabotage the West," but you just know they're all thinking it.

 

[SolarPowered]

Yeah let's counter the radical GOP idea that all taxes against rich people must be resisted at all costs by electing more Republicans.

I don't know how you got that from my post, but okay. As far as I'm concerned bring on the Jones', Manchins and other moderate southwestern and southern democrats. Shit, I'd be willing to compromise and let them be neutral on abortion and gun rights if necessary. They just better not pull a Lieberman on us when we really need them.

People voted for Trump because they are scumbags and/or idiots. Just the same reason they vote for Republicans in Congress.

That too, but Trump branded himself a special sort of populist republican. It wasn't just bully tactics and racism. He was tapping into skepticism of economic globalism that along with blatant (as opposed to dog whistling) racism set him apart from the usual pro-trade and billionaire/millionaire funded Republican candidates.

 

[Greigor The Fellhand]

He's been doing this since day one, all out assault on NATO, and then says stupid shit to distract people.

 

[JettDash]

I don't know how you got that from my post, but okay. As far as I'm concerned bring on the Jones', Manchins and other moderate southwestern and southern democrats. Shit, I'd be willing to compromise and let them be neutral on abortion and gun rights if necessary. They just better not pull a Lieberman on us when we really need them.

That too, but Trump branded himself a special sort of populist republican. It wasn't just bully tactics and racism. He was tapping into skepticism of economic globalism that along with blatant (as opposed to dog whistling) racism set him apart from the usual pro-trade and billionaire/millionaire funded Republican candidates.

Even Lieberman voted for new taxes to help the poor/middle class. He certainly wasn't ideal but he was better than every single Republican in Congress.

And meh, the vast majority of these same people vote for standard Republicans.

 

[LiK]

Is Trump trying to sabotage _______?

Answer is always yes.

 

[SolarPowered]

Even Lieberman voted for new taxes to help the poor/middle class. He certainly wasn't ideal but he was better than every single Republican in Congress.

And meh, the vast majority of these same people vote for standard Republicans.

Oh yeah

I just wish he hadn't turned his back on a public option at the time. I think it's probably one of the political acts he will be most remembered for.

 

[RPGCrazied]

But of course. And this will fuck up the economy. Another fuck you to middle class families.

 

[Savitar]

Trump has come to realize trying to repeal anything is useless, the most effective means of getting what he wants is to sabotage something and let it fail. He can blame anything in that case.

 

[Lonely1]

Trump has come to realize trying to repeal anything is useless, the most effective means of getting what he wants is to sabotage something and let it fail. He can blame anything in that case.

And is that working out?