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[PJV3]

Please don't politicise the politically motivated political assassination of a politician during a political campaign.

I know it isn't confirmed yet, but the usually no nonsense Tory pundits are amazing sometimes.

 

[Mindwipe]

Terrible outcome. I saw the initial news before getting in a plane. I assume it's dominating the news outlets?

Pretty much.

I hope they don't downplay the political nature of the attack regardless of the killers mental health . It's plain to see from my perspective how the rhetoric enables and normalizes this type of violence

I think there's a lot of confusion yet. There's certainly a lot of downplaying compared to the rampant assumptions that would be happening if the suspect had been asian. But having said that I think those assumptions are far too quick too, and here I think I'd rather wait to get some facts through.

Edit: I think there's definitely a growing body of evidence he's a far right terrorist, but I'd prefer to wait for more formal facts.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

He used the hashtag "#britainfirst" and said "this is the price you pay when you destroy your nation" - you really wouldn't have guessed?

I'm getting softer in my old age. I need to change that...

Right, so, can we drop the "oh, we don't know why he did it, it might not be far-right terrorism, it's unfair to link this to Brexiters, mental illness, mental illness!" shtick now?

This guy has a history of supporting white supremacy, bought a manual for making guns from a neo-Nazi website, and shouted "Britain First" as he murdered a Remain supporting MP.

This is political violence of the worst kind, egged on by a group which has already threatened "direct action" against elected representatives, and it needs to be recognised and acted against.

It won't be labelled a terrorist attack. It's still being called a killing/murder. They are droning out the statement from the husband, especially the part about all races and religion. That's a calculated move.

We're also seeing the narrative being formed that this was a localised incident and it's going to be treated as such. The words terrorist attack and Jo Cox likely won't be uttered in the same sentence. It's not going to happen.

I'll give credit to the French PM for calling it what it is...an assassination. Should have said political assassination/act of terror, but at least someone has used the word assassination.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Please don't politicise the politically motivated political assassination of a politician during a political campaign.

I know it isn't confirmed yet, but the usually no nonsense Tory pundits are amazing sometimes.

Chickens coming home to roost as some on the right love to say...

 

[CyclopsRock]

In some fairness, it's a paraphrase of something she actually did say. She was asked about her lack of foreign policy experience in an interview and how she would be able to cope with, for example, negotiations with Russia; and responded:

Well yeah, the distinction being that the thing she said is true and the thing Fey said isn't. I don't think her point was really "I can see them, of course I'll be able to negotiate our relationship!" but rather that Russia wasn't some abstract "other" to her - it had a relatively local presence that was of consequence to the people that lived there (in the same way North Africa is to the people of southern Spain, which can seeeee each other even without having to go on any islands! And as such they interact on issues of immigration, drug smuggling, fishing etc).

 

[Kabouter]

Well yeah, the distinction being that the thing she said is true and the thing Fey said isn't. I don't think her point was really "I can see them, of course I'll be able to negotiate our relationship!" but rather that Russia wasn't some abstract "other" to her - it had a relatively local presence that was of consequence to the people that lived there (in the same way North Africa is to the people of southern Spain, which can seeeee each other even without having to go on any islands! And as such they interact on issues of immigration, drug smuggling, fishing etc).

Other than fishing, how comparable is the relationship between Russia and Alaska with that between Spain and Morocco really? Quite apart from the fact that almost no one lives in that part of Russia, and Alaska itself is only somewhat better, there's also the fact that Spain in addition to the distance from Iberia to North Africa has two exclaves in Morocco itself.

How many issues is the state government of Alaska really involved in that include interaction with Russia? Because lord knows immigration and drug smuggling aren't likely to be problems.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Other than fishing, how comparable is the relationship between Russia and Alaska with that between Spain and Morocco really? Quite apart from the fact that almost no one lives in that part of Russia, and Alaska itself is only somewhat better, there's also the fact that Spain in addition to the distance from Iberia to North Africa has two exclaves in Morocco itself.

How many issues is the state government of Alaska really involved in that include interaction with Russia? Because lord knows immigration and drug smuggling aren't likely to be problems.

I dunno, I'm not saying she's super smart or anything, I just think there's some virtue to the idea that their overlapping spheres of interest mean she might understand more about (part, at least) of Russia than a lot of politicians would, and that saying what she said wasn't dumb (unlike Fey's satirical version).

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What Kab says. The Diomede Islands have a total population of 110. There's more Armenians in Thailand than people relevant to the Russia-Alaska border. It gives you absolutely no insight into foreign policy negotiations whatsoever.

 

[Kabouter]

I dunno, I'm not saying she's super smart or anything, I just think there's some virtue to the idea that their overlapping spheres of interest mean she might understand more about (part, at least) of Russia than a lot of politicians would, and that saying what she said wasn't dumb (unlike Fey's satirical version).

And I'm disagreeing. Nothing about Alaska's situation is likely to give anyone any more insight into Russia. And lord knows that nothing Palin has said in public indicates she has even the slightest understanding of Russia. What she said was quite dumb, even if Fey's version is of course an exaggeration of it.

 

[avaya]

I dunno, I'm not saying she's super smart or anything, I just think there's some virtue to the idea that their overlapping spheres of interest mean she might understand more about (part, at least) of Russia than a lot of politicians would, and that saying what she said wasn't dumb (unlike Fey's satirical version).

Watch game change or read the book game change. Steve Schmidt (McCain campaign manager) and Nicolle Wallace (assigned by campaign to help Palin) attest that it was accurate. Palin was thick as shit.

 

[OverBlood 3]

I don't know what you lot are talking about ^ off topic?

Anyway so this was absolutely a politically motivated killing as we all suspected?

What's the chances he'll be charged as a terrorist?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4oe57n/mp_jo_cox_dead_after_shooting_attack/d4c1ll3


"Local here, street away from the murderer and down the road from the amazing Jo Coxs surgery.

Sadden and shocked. I know it's trotted out on every one of these horrific incidents but the man was genuinely a loner who was batshit mad.

He used to go to a mental health course thing that really helped him a year or so ago, after the elections it got discontinued and he sort of blamed her for it. Felt she was giving too much to Europe & everywhere but locally (her amazing Syria & anti-slavery work etc) which is just completely incorrect. She cared a great deal about her constituency and she walked around Birstall as a local, not a shipped in MP. He was a lunatic with a grudge and that is a dangerous combo.

A shocking day we won't forget. I can't imagine what her husband and kids are going through. My heart bleeds for them.

If we have more people like Jo Cox in the world will be a different place in 100 years. Take a leaf from her book in your forward steps. Rest in peace."

Reddit, no idea if it's true. But what is true is mental health services being scraped to the bone. 2 of the local organizations I volunteered at teaching computer maintenance shut down this year.

It was a pittance to keep them going as well... 50 grand a year and they helped hundreds of people.

 

[OverBlood 3]

I was thinking about the mental health aspect, and if it's found he was failed by mental health services and the NHS he'd have a chance of being tried for manslaughter. That guy who stabbed that guy to death in a road rage incident walked away with a manslaughter charge, his parents had begged local services to section him under the mental health act and they didn't.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

What's the chances he'll be charged as a terrorist?

What do you mean by that?

 

[OverBlood 3]

What do you mean by that?

It was a terrorist attack but who knows what the police will charge him with.

From Twitter

@darshnasoni (channel 4 home affairs correspondent)

We understand Thomas Mair may have bought books from a US-based neo-Nazi group, including guides on how to build homemade guns.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Guy with mental health issues who tried to stab people on the underground was charged with attempted murder.

Didn't kill anyone, shouted this is for Syria...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36479921

I don't see why he should only be charged with manslaughter, especially if he kicked her while she was down, after having stabbed and shot her three times.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Guy with mental health issues who tried to stab people on the underground was charged with attempted murder.

Didn't kill anyone, shouted this is for Syria...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36479921

I don't see why he should only be charged with manslaughter, especially if he kicked her while she was down, after having stabbed and shot her three times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ler-cleared-of-murder-but-found-guilty-of-ma/

He stabbed the guy 39 times and got charged with manslaughter.

 

[CrunchyB]

Reddit, no idea if it's true. But what is true is mental health services being scraped to the bone. 2 of the local organizations I volunteered at teaching computer maintenance shut down this year.

It was a pittance to keep them going as well... 50 grand a year and they helped hundreds of people.

Yeah, that kind of nonsense is infuriating. It's happening in the Netherlands as well, my neighbour who works in metal care says that in a few years time we'll pick some very bitter fruits because of this. It's always better to prevent than to try to fix things afterwards.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I was thinking about the mental health aspect, and if it's found he was failed by mental health services and the NHS he'd have a chance of being tried for manslaughter. That guy who stabbed that guy to death in a road rage incident walked away with a manslaughter charge, his parents had begged local services to section him under the mental health act and they didn't.

The staff and volunteers that work at these services are fucking incredible. They work miracles with absolutely fuck all for resources.

I hope if there's any positive thing that comes out of something like this it'll be a review of the funding. They're at breaking point right now.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ler-cleared-of-murder-but-found-guilty-of-ma/

He stabbed the guy 39 times and got charged with manslaughter.

So much like the story with the underground stabber, the family asked for help but in one case that's taken into account to make the sentencing less harsh and in the other it's seemingly ignored.

One brutally kills someone, one doesn't, and yet only one is given a murder charge.

Huh.

 

[OverBlood 3]

The staff and volunteers that work at these services are fucking incredible. They work miracles with absolutely fuck all for resources.

I hope if there's any positive thing that comes out of something like this it'll be a review of the funding. They're at breaking point right now.

I'm in the same position regarding having mental health support taken away from me. I've had support since I was in Primary school, only now can my doctor not offer anything except a self referral service (which isn't suitable for my particular problems), my own doctor can't help me find support. They'll give you plenty of Sertraline/Citalopram though...

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Yeah, that kind of nonsense is infuriating. It's happening in the Netherlands as well, my neighbour who works in metal care says that in a few years time we'll pick some very bitter fruits because of this. It's always better to prevent than to try to fix things afterwards.

The heartbreaking thing is that it works. You can help get people back into work and lead fulfilling lives again.

Even to a bastard tory bean counter it should make sense... But it's all seemingly ideology driven and mean spirited.

 

[Arksy]

It would be murder but for the extenuating circumstance of diminished responsibility which means that the murder charge was downgraded to manslaughter.

 

[LordRaptor]

Even to a bastard tory bean counter it should make sense... But it's all seemingly ideology driven and mean spirited.

At best you'll get renewed talks about "public private partnerships" and a layer of middle management to oversee 'efficiency'

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The heartbreaking thing is that it works. You can help get people back into work and lead fulfilling lives again.

Even to a bastard tory bean counter it should make sense... But it's all seemingly ideology driven and mean spirited.

As I understand it, these kinds of services are paid for via council tax and central government funding.

So when you freeze council tax for years on end, the money from central goes into filling the gap from the freeze and when that money is slowly going down due to austerity, you have to make cuts and these services, which most people won't even have heard of are very easy targets.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

It was a terrorist attack but who knows what the police will charge him with.

Murder, presumably. Terrorism offences tend to be used when there's insufficient evidence of anything harder (people who incite hate but don't get their hands dirty themselves).

 

[OverBlood 3]

Murder, presumably. Terrorism offences tend to be used when there's insufficient evidence of anything harder (people who incite hate but don't get their hands dirty themselves).

There's plenty of evidence to support this was a politically motivated killing. The BBC are openly reporting the 'Britain first' aspect of the story and I posted further up the thread revelations from channel 4 that he'd bought books from a US based neo nazi group along with books on making your own guns.

 

[Terbinator]

Politically motivated =/= terrorism.

 

[OminoMichelin]

So an Italian right-wing newspaper came out with this front page

The headline reads: "Three shots against a woman save Europe"
Disgusting, This is the same newspaper that gave away mein kampfs a few days ago.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Politically motivated =/= terrorism.

In this case it absolutely is.

 

[Camp Freddie]

It was a terrorist attack but who knows what the police will charge him with.

I believe he'll get charged with murder and get a very long sentence (probably whole life) if convicted. He might only get manslaughter due to diminished responsibility if he turns out to have serious mental health problems. They might also charge him with possession of an illegal firearm or something like that.

He's unlikely to be charged with "terrorism", since the various terrorism offences cover fairly specifics sets of circumstances. They tend to only be used when people are linked to a blacklist of proscribed terrorist organisations. They also tend to involve "consipracy to do [x]", which is difficult for a "lone-wolf" terrorist and needs more that just buying stuff from a white supremacist organisation in the USA. I guess he could be charged with owning materials designed for the commission of terrorist acts, but that's a pretty weak charge compared to murder.

For example, Lee Rigby's killers were charged and convicted of murder, not terrorism, despite their clear political/terrorist motivations.

(I'm not a lawyer, etc.)

 

[CyclopsRock]

And I'm disagreeing. Nothing about Alaska's situation is likely to give anyone any more insight into Russia. And lord knows that nothing Palin has said in public indicates she has even the slightest understanding of Russia. What she said was quite dumb, even if Fey's version is of course an exaggeration of it.

What Kab says. The Diomede Islands have a total population of 110. There's more Armenians in Thailand than people relevant to the Russia-Alaska border. It gives you absolutely no insight into foreign policy negotiations whatsoever.

Haha, fair enough. You bullies win!

 

[OverBlood 3]

I believe he'll get charged with murder and get a very long sentence (probably whole life) if convicted. He might only get manslaughter due to diminished responsibility if he turns out to have serious mental health problems. They might also charge him with possession of an illegal firearm or something like that.

He's unlikely to be charged with "terrorism", since the various terrorism offences cover fairly specifics sets of circumstances. They tend to only be used when people are linked to a blacklist of proscribed terrorist organisations. They also tend to involve "consipracy to do [x]", which is difficult for a "lone-wolf" terrorist and needs more that just buying stuff from a white supremacist organisation in the USA. I guess he could be charged with owning materials designed for the commission of terrorist acts, but that's a pretty weak charge compared to murder.

For example, Lee Rigby's killers were charged and convicted of murder, not terrorism, despite their clear political/terrorist motivations.

(I'm not a lawyer, etc.)

Yeah I think this is the most likely scenario. I hope it's for a very long time.

 

[avaya]

The headline reads: "Three shots against a woman save Europe"
Disgusting, This is the same newspaper that gave away mein kampfs a few days ago.

Look at the stock market if you want proof it's true. She is basically a martyr at this point.

Incredibly sad times.

 

[Rafy]

So an Italian right-wing newspaper came out with this front page

The headline reads: "Three shots against a woman save Europe"
Disgusting, This is the same newspaper that gave away mein kampfs a few days ago.

I saw this in the metro earlier today. These kinds of people need to be locked up in a loony bin and then throw away the key

Why do companies even buy ad space on this "newspaper" ?!

 

[dan2026]

So this murder could conceivably have been prevented if they didn't slash the budget for metal health services.

More suffering wrought by uncaring Tories.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Look at the stock market if you want proof it's true. She is basically a martyr at this point.

Incredibly sad times.

Different reasons. That newspaper is a far-right propaganda piece.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I really must read more about Italy's far right one of these days. That whole area is simultaneously fascinating and terrifying, like being attacked by a mountain lion.

 

[JonathanEx]

Conservative Party announce they won't contest the by-election that will take place in the seat, which is a nice move.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

So this murder could conceivably have been prevented if they didn't slash the budget for metal health services.

More suffering wrought by uncaring Tories.

Please don't do this. There's hundreds of legitimate reasons for mental health services to receive more funding - a mentally-ill man murdering an MP is not one of them. Similarly, there's hundreds of legitimate reasons why the Tories are awful; making political capital out of this tragedy is tasteless in the extreme.

 

[OminoMichelin]

I really must read more about Italy's far right one of these days. That whole area is simultaneously fascinating and terrifying, like being attacked by a mountain lion.

A very small mountain lion, comparatively.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Conservative Party announce they won't contest the by-election that will take place in the seat, which is a nice move.

I imagine they wouldn't succeed well there either way after this, but still, good on them.

 

[giga]

Hypothetical: if it was a Syrian refugee (or any other immigrant really) who killed a "Leave" MP, how different would the fallout be? I'm American and know little about British politics. Thanks.

 

[avaya]

Hypothetical: if it was a Syrian refugee (or any other immigrant really) who killed a "Leave" MP, how different would the fallout be? I'm American and know little about British politics. Thanks.

How would the GOP and Fox react. You have your answer.

But 'both sides are the same'. GTFO with that bullshit.

 

[Wrestlemania]

"Remain are policising and exploiting this tragic event!", shout groups who last week had no issues with shit like this:

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Hypothetical: if it was a Syrian refugee (or any other immigrant really) who killed a "Leave" MP, how different would the fallout be? I'm American and know little about British politics. Thanks.

Headlines would feature...Terrorist, attack on democracy, political assassination, why wasn't he under investigation for his ties to extremist groups, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Psychotext]

Hypothetical: if it was a Syrian refugee (or any other immigrant really) who killed a "Leave" MP, how different would the fallout be? I'm American and know little about British politics. Thanks.

I think a lot of politicians would still stay away from it (probably not Farage), but the general public and newspapers would make MASSIVE noise about it.

 

[Jezbollah]

I think a lot of politicians would still stay away from it (probably not Farage), but the general public and newspapers would make MASSIVE noise about it.

Yep I think this is probably what would happen. Politically it would be too toxic for most but given Farage's track record of pure vileness I think he would be all over it.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Please don't do this. There's hundreds of legitimate reasons for mental health services to receive more funding - a mentally-ill man murdering an MP is not one of them. Similarly, there's hundreds of legitimate reasons why the Tories are awful; making political capital out of this tragedy is tasteless in the extreme.

It's not a ridiculous idea considering the story I posted earlier, this guy stabbed someone 39 times and the NHS essentially took responsibility as he was let down by mental health services. I'm not making a judgement either way I'm just saying there's a precedent.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I think a lot of politicians would still stay away from it (probably not Farage), but the general public and newspapers would make MASSIVE noise about it.

You seriously think no mainstream politician would capitalise on a Syrian Muslim refugee killing an MP?

The leave campaign would be all over that, maybe not immediately but after a couple of days they'd be do everything they could to capitalise from it. It's the holy trinity for those groups.

Muslim, immigrant, attack on our way of life.